Pinto is 6'3" and is a highly talented defensive player that scored 20 goals in his rookie season. I am guessing that Pinto wants something that allows him to bridge into Batherson like numbers on his contract. Sens should have no difficulty in finding the number that works. Lots of cap space for next year.
- spatso

My only concern with Pinto is that he'll regress like Colin White did. I don't think that will be the case but I also think we should temper expectations. I am ok with trading him only because we have grieg, need cap space, and honestly, imo I don't like too many Americans on my team. Sens have wayy to much, I don't know what it is. How many cup winners have top end Canadian talent vs how much the Sens have. Look at it. Not all USA players have careers like Pavelski, Leetch, or P.Kane. Outside Tkachuk and Sanderson I'm still a bit concerned - Norris I'm worried about his health + ability to score 30-35 goals again. I'm also not liking the health situation with Tyler Boucher when we had Wyatt Johnston sitting right there. Anyways let's compare White with Pinto:

Colin White
Drafted 2015 - 21st overall - 3 years after draft - 14G, 41P in 71 games
Received a 6 year @4.7M contract

Shane Pinto
Drafted 2019 - 32nd overall - 3 years after draft - 20G, 35P in 82 games
What should he receive? IMO - 1x2.5M, 2x2.75M, 3x3M

Bettman announced that the cap related revenue was $6b.+ for last season.. The players chose to hold the line on the cap because they still have clawback liability due to escrow balance from Covid seasons.There will be no more escrow clawback after this season. Without escrow the cap this year would have been $93.5m (6b.x.5/32).

So, if revenue reverts to the traditional 3% gain this year it is a fairly sad assumption that the cap for next year will be $96m.
- spatso

Per
https://theathletic.com/4...alary-cap-increase/?amp=1

2024-25: $87.7 million
2025-26: $92.1 million

Per
https://www.nhl.com/news/...-2023-2024-seas-342271376

“ Bettman, speaking on the last day of the NHL general managers meetings, said the cap could increase by about $4.5 million, instead of $1 million, if hockey-related revenues for the rest of this season exceed the current projections, allowing the remaining escrow debt owed by the players to the owners to be paid in full...”

“… If it is not paid off in full this season, it will be next season, meaning the cap would go up to about $88 million for 2024-25….”

Per
https://theathletic.com/4...alary-cap-increase/?amp=1

2024-25: $87.7 million
2025-26: $92.1 million

Per
https://www.nhl.com/news/...-2023-2024-seas-342271376

“ Bettman, speaking on the last day of the NHL general managers meetings, said the cap could increase by about $4.5 million, instead of $1 million, if hockey-related revenues for the rest of this season exceed the current projections, allowing the remaining escrow debt owed by the players to the owners to be paid in full...”

“… If it is not paid off in full this season, it will be next season, meaning the cap would go up to about $88 million for 2024-25….”
- Turnitaround

Bettman is being coy. HRR was $6B. Straight math would put the cap at $93.5 right now if it were not for escrow. It is players pushing hold back. Multiple teams want to accelerate increases.

He may actually make more money being on LTIR in Arizona than in Ottawa due to taxes.
- GrimmdaGoalie

players who are residents of either Canada or the United States are taxed on their entire salary in their home country. Those who are considered residents of the U.S. must also pay tax in Canada – but only to the extent of time on Canadian soil. So if Little stays in the US ....

Example .... that is why Matthews makes his home in Arizona and lives there in the off-season.


If Little does invoke NTC, then there is always the Voracek LTIR contract, also for 1 more year. Regardless, Arizona does not need all of their LTIR contracts anymore especially if we can give them a 2nd round pick or maybe Thomson.

However, in training camp we may solve all of our Pinto signing issues. My guess is that Pinto wants a 2-3 year $2.5 million salary while the Sens are probably offering $1.5 million for 1-2 years. I don't believe there is a Batherson suspension issue. But everything could be solved if they hit camp and Tyler Klevin just busts the doors down and force the Sens to keep him up. Then Ottawa trades Brannstom outright. If Greig has a great camp then it allows them to move out Joseph as well. Although, the ability to trade Kubalik is much easier IMO.

However, maybe when Andlauer takes over as official owner, that is the big splashy trade they make .... to bring in LTIR contract. Sending a message to the team that he wants to win and is willing to pay to get it done and keep this group of players together.

NFL salary cap formula is almost identical to the formula used by the NHL.

NFL: Total shared revenue ($18.6b) divided by the number of teams (32) multiplied by the players share 48%. Actual cap this year $224m.

NHL: Total revenue shared ($6b) divided by the number of teams (32) multiplied by the players share 50%. Actual cap this year is $83.5m (adjusted for escrow).

Both leagues have a salary cap floor (minimum amount needing to be spent by each team). When a team does not meet the minimum, monies are paid into a common pool to be shared by the players.

Some folks complain about NHL salary cap being unfair to a few major market teams. My response is if it good enough for the NFL, the NHL should be happy. NHL players are doing well. Remember an NFL roster (53 players) is more than double the size of an NHL roster.

players who are residents of either Canada or the United States are taxed on their entire salary in their home country. Those who are considered residents of the U.S. must also pay tax in Canada – but only to the extent of time on Canadian soil. So if Little stays in the US ....

Example .... that is why Matthews makes his home in Arizona and lives there in the off-season.


If Little does invoke NTC, then there is always the Voracek LTIR contract, also for 1 more year. Regardless, Arizona does not need all of their LTIR contracts anymore especially if we can give them a 2nd round pick or maybe Thomson.

However, in training camp we may solve all of our Pinto signing issues. My guess is that Pinto wants a 2-3 year $2.5 million salary while the Sens are probably offering $1.5 million for 1-2 years. I don't believe there is a Batherson suspension issue. But everything could be solved if they hit camp and Tyler Klevin just busts the doors down and force the Sens to keep him up. Then Ottawa trades Brannstom outright. If Greig has a great camp then it allows them to move out Joseph as well. Although, the ability to trade Kubalik is much easier IMO.

However, maybe when Andlauer takes over as official owner, that is the big splashy trade they make .... to bring in LTIR contract. Sending a message to the team that he wants to win and is willing to pay to get it done and keep this group of players together.
- OttawaB

A+. Great read. I struggle with the LTIR calculation in terms of how it impacts the cap.

Also, can you do a deal allowing you to double up from a salary calculation. Could you for example trade Joseph for Little and get the salary relief benefit both ways?

A+. Great read. I struggle with the LTIR calculation in terms of how it impacts the cap.

Also, can you do a deal allowing you to double up from a salary calculation. Could you for example trade Joseph for Little and get the salary relief benefit both ways?
- spatso

For any LTIR salary to be used in the cap calculation, the team must be over the cap. An LTIR designation allows the team to exclude the salary from their overall cap (unless the team is over the cap). If the Sens trade Joseph and sign Pinto at $2.5 .... and then sign Sokolov for $900,000, they are under the cap and cannot use any LTIR contracts as part of the cap calculation.

Bettman is being coy. HRR was $6B. Straight math would put the cap at $93.5 right now if it were not for escrow. It is players pushing hold back. Multiple teams want to accelerate increases.
- spatso

You have no idea what you are talking about on most subjects and now you can add math to that list

You have no idea what you are talking about on most subjects and now you can add math to that list
- GPHawksfan

So somebody has told you a different formula?

Do you know something different than 100% HRR x .50 / 32 teams.

Did they agree on a new deal? Computing the cap is easy. The problem has always been the adjustment for the escrow hold back. Escrow has always been the issue, hated by players. Recently it has been more problematic because of the impact Covid has had on attendance and revenues.

Decent summary by Garrioch on off season. Dorion was pretty busy.

https://ottawasun.com/spo...n-an-off-season-of-change

Lysell. Even the Boston source behind the Pinto rumour knew it would likely mean parting with Lysell, and require a larger trade package even if they did. And they didn't mean including $5M of unwanted player contracts going back to the team that's trying to save money, in addition to retaining $800K.
https://bostonhockeynow.c...pinto-price-will-be-high/

This is a terrible trade proposal. It also ignores the reality that Pinto has close NCAA connections to multiple other Senators' prospects, including Jake Sanderson who just signed an 8-year extension.
- khawk

KHwak, everything you write is spot on logically thought through. I hope hockeybizz is paying you at this point.

At this point, I’m okay with them trading Pinto. He’s a third line center that doesn’t play the PK. Granted last year was a poop show and he got thrown on a defensively brutal line, but he didn’t exactly help the defensive woes. Move the guy for decent return and move on if you’ve filled up the cap space already.

The flip side is the scary possible scenario of batherson you’ve presented. I’m that case, you keep pinto and kubalik makes more sense.

Not much we can do but sit back and wait. This hockey Canada thing is getting ridiculous with the time it’s taking.

I am a huge Pinto fan. I want the Sens to start the season with Stutzle, Norris, Pinto and Kestelec down the middle.

People need to chill on their worries about the cap. The Sens do not have salary cap problems. They are in need of a minor adjustment that will no doubt resolve itself during training camp.

I am guessing Pinto's agent is looking to get him into a longer term contract in the next year or so that is comparable to Batherson. If Pinto scores 25-30 this season, $5m will be the right number.

I expect a 1 year bridge deal in the $3m range. I could see a second longer term deal being completed before Christmas.
- spatso

The Sens have less than 1m in cap space have at least two forwards to sign. That is a cap issue. You can put your head in sand or make pie in the sky trade proposals, but unless something significant changes, there are cap issues.

These issues are solved by:
Trading pinto+a current signed roster player (kubalik/Brannstrom I would think) for three players

Or

Batherson being suspended and this team loses a top six

Waiting on injuries or trying to buy LTIR isn’t going to happen. Accept reality.

So like... when is this report going to drop. Does anyone know? Keep hearing Batherson might be suspended but is there an actual date of release and if not then why hasn't this report dropped already. Give teams that have to replace key guys time to do it imo.

When you look at subtractions vs Additions, playoff chances look good:

Key Subtractions
LW Alex DeBrincat
G Cam Talbot

Key Additions
C Josh Norris (8GP)
RW Vlad Tarasenko (contract season)
LW Dominik Kubalik (contract season)
D Jake Sanderson (rookie season)
D Jakob Chychrun (12GP)
G Joonas Korpisalo (29 - same age Craig Anderson came to OTT)

I see these comparisons and worry that Pinto will be Colin White 2.0.
I didn't have a problem with the White deal at the time because he was playing with Stone and Duchene.....and putting up points. Then. We traded everything away, the coach didn't like him and buried him with lesser skilled players. What a shock he produced less and suddenly he's crap and run out of town.

Who has Pinto played with? Is he the driver of the line or is he the beneficiary of good linemates?

I love how people magically think we'll "trade Joseph away". Uh huh. Nobody want's our bad contracts. The sweetener to get rid of Joseph is probably PINTO!!.

I see these comparisons and worry that Pinto will be Colin White 2.0.
I didn't have a problem with the White deal at the time because he was playing with Stone and Duchene.....and putting up points. Then. We traded everything away, the coach didn't like him and buried him with lesser skilled players. What a shock he produced less and suddenly he's crap and run out of town.

Who has Pinto played with? Is he the driver of the line or is he the beneficiary of good linemates?

I love how people magically think we'll "trade Joseph away". Uh huh. Nobody want's our bad contracts. The sweetener to get rid of Joseph is probably PINTO!!.
- Octavarium

Colin White was no better in Ottawa than he has been in Florida.

I am huge fan of Pinto. I expect he will stay with the Sens for a very long tim.

Technically we have to sign Pinto by December 1st. It would be nice for the WJ thing to resolve in the off-season, but this could very well drag into the fall and perhaps Dorion is okay with that scenario.

I see these comparisons and worry that Pinto will be Colin White 2.0.
I didn't have a problem with the White deal at the time because he was playing with Stone and Duchene.....and putting up points. Then. We traded everything away, the coach didn't like him and buried him with lesser skilled players. What a shock he produced less and suddenly he's crap and run out of town.

Who has Pinto played with? Is he the driver of the line or is he the beneficiary of good linemates?

I love how people magically think we'll "trade Joseph away". Uh huh. Nobody want's our bad contracts. The sweetener to get rid of Joseph is probably PINTO!!.
- Octavarium

Yup, no one is taking on a 3 year contract on a guy like Joseph. That's why Brannstrom is the most likely guy to go, unless the HC report comes against Batherson.

Silver lining is that it would be hard for Joseph to do much worse. He should be better this year and at least put up some goals based on past performance.

One problem with trying to trade their way out of the cap situation is that it creates roster holes in the process. Trading Joseph at $2.9M sounds like an easy fix... until you realize there isn't another 3rd-line quality two-way winger on the roster. Even if they thought it could be Greig, he'd still take up 1/3 of the AAV freed up by the trade, and downgrade their PK. In fact, they've already lost 2 of their top PK forwards in Gambrell and Watson, so that's one area of potential risk heading into the season where they need to win games right out of training camp.

For my money, Kubalik is still the more feasible player to move - both in terms of minimizing roster disruption, and the reality of it being far easier to trade a potential 2nd-line scoring forward with a very low-risk AAV/term. He only frees up $2.5M, but if their 3rd line is structured around Pinto-Joseph, they can afford to have a cheaper supporting winger on that like like Smejkal, Greig, or Sokolov. That should leave enough to give Pinto a ~$2Mx1yr deal, with the understanding that he won't be left out of the equation next off-season.

Colin White getting a PTO with the Pens. Spezza helping his buddy out.

One problem with trying to trade their way out of the cap situation is that it creates roster holes in the process. Trading Joseph at $2.9M sounds like an easy fix... until you realize there isn't another 3rd-line quality two-way winger on the roster. Even if they thought it could be Greig, he'd still take up 1/3 of the AAV freed up by the trade, and downgrade their PK. In fact, they've already lost 2 of their top PK forwards in Gambrell and Watson, so that's one area of potential risk heading into the season where they need to win games right out of training camp.

For my money, Kubalik is still the more feasible player to move - both in terms of minimizing roster disruption, and the reality of it being far easier to trade a potential 2nd-line scoring forward with a very low-risk AAV/term. He only frees up $2.5M, but if their 3rd line is structured around Pinto-Joseph, they can afford to have a cheaper supporting winger on that like like Smejkal, Greig, or Sokolov. That should leave enough to give Pinto a ~$2Mx1yr deal, with the understanding that he won't be left out of the equation next off-season.
- khawk

Teams that express an interest in Pinto see him as a 2nd line centre (long term plans) and therefore likely falling into the $5m range once he finally signs a long term deal. No doubt that is how his agent sees his situation as well.

So, do you see a place for Pinto as a top 6 skater for the Sens over the next 3 to 4 years?

I do! He has size, smarts and great instincts.

The supposed interest being postured by other teams (eg., Boston) suggest that Pinto's agent likely believes he will eventually get a longer term deal that will push upwards against the $5m salary. I think he gets a one bridge deal for this year that is a little bit better than Lafreniere's deal with the Rangers.

Great value in Sens roster. Watch for them to duplicate Devils season of last year. Smith is the right guy behind the bench and Dorion has done a masterful job in putting this team together.

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/vi...-which-team-are-y~2764733

Teams that express an interest in Pinto see him as a 2nd line centre (long term plans) and therefore likely falling into the $5m range once he finally signs a long term deal. No doubt that is how his agent sees his situation as well.

So, do you see a place for Pinto as a top 6 skater for the Sens over the next 3 to 4 years?

I do! He has size, smarts and great instincts.

The supposed interest being postured by other teams (eg., Boston) suggest that Pinto's agent likely believes he will eventually get a longer term deal that will push upwards against the $5m salary. I think he gets a one bridge deal for this year that is a little bit better than Lafreniere's deal with the Rangers.
- spatso

Personally, I think having a solid two-way #3C signed in the ~$5M AAV range is reasonable, given the importance of quality C depth and the ability to withstand injuries over the course of the year. Now it's possible that both Pinto and Greig are capable to playing this role, but it could be equally valuable to leave Greig as a W/C to provide even more C versatility. Were it me, I would trade the likes of Kubalik and Brannstrom all day long before I ever traded Pinto. I also maybe value Joseph more than some others, because if there's one part of the game they absolutely need to improve on its the GA. I have no doubt that Tarasenko, Norris, and Chychrun will be able to more than offset the loss of DeBrincat, however if the Senators had made the playoffs last year they would have been 16th among all playoff teams in GA. So any roster moves that weaken their defensive quality is a questionable direction.

Personally, I think having a solid two-way #3C signed in the ~$5M AAV range is reasonable, given the importance of having quality C depth and the ability to withstand injuries over the course of the year. Now it's possible that both Pinto and Greig are capable to playing this role, but it could be equally valuable to leave Greig as a W/C to provide even more C versatility. Were it me, I would trade the likes of Kubalik and Brannstrom all day long before I traded Pinto. I also maybe value Joseph more than some others, because if there's one part of the game they absolutely need to improve on its the GA. Had the Senators made the playoffs last year they would have been 16th among all playoff teams in GA, so any roster moves that weaken their defensive quality is a questionable direction.
- khawk

Kubalik is the easier player to replace out the 3 being mentioned as trade option to sign Pinto, and yes id keep Greig on the wing with Pinto and Joseph rounding out the 3rd line, Pinto has shown he can play on the 2nd pairing and having a 3C that can do that is invaluable, Greig has not done anything yet at the NHL level that is why these Pinto trade rumor's are dumb as hell

This is why I keep coming back to the trade for an LTIR contract. Our cap issue disappears at the end of this season when the cap rises. So why create holes in the roster by trading away Joseph, or Pinto, or Brannstrom , etc. Instead you give up a 2nd round pick or Brannstrom (if Klevin kicks the door down), or Thomson. I don't understand why many are dismissing this kind of a trade. It truly makes the most sense.