Malkin and Crosby when on their game aren't shrinking violets. Malkin is a dirty (frank) and 6'4. Crosby has legs the size of mount Olympus and will fight to the death for every puck.

Like you say, it's not about having a team of goons, it's about your stars being able to fight to the death. Kucherov is maybe 5'11 and Point 5'9, but both will fight to the death and pull poop guys twice their size would without batting an eye.
- AdamFrench

Most any good team wins puck battles. LAK, CHI, PIT, TBL are the four modern dynasties. All of them dictated play. Only LAK were a large physically imposing team that was focused defense first. The other three were rather aggressive offensive teams built on finesse.

Malkin and Crosby when on their game aren't shrinking violets. Malkin is a dirty (frank) and 6'4. Crosby has legs the size of mount Olympus and will fight to the death for every puck.

Like you say, it's not about having a team of goons, it's about your stars being able to fight to the death. Kucherov is maybe 5'11 and Point 5'9, but both will fight to the death and pull poop guys twice their size would without batting an eye.
- AdamFrench

Absolutely agree. I mean from the original list of names that I cited: Rantanen, Makar, Kucherov, Point, O'Reilly, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Kessel, Crosby, Kane . . .

Kucherov doesn't hit, but he's dirty AF; O'Reilly doesn't hit, but he battles; Crosby, Makin, Makar and Rantanen are hard on the puck and tough to beat one-on-one and they win most board battles for a puck.

Kuznetsov, Kessel and Kane (did I just pick KKK? Is that bad?) - who have all enjoyed playoff success - did so by either playing out of character (Kessel in his first cup with the Pens battled far more than normal, although most of his goals, if I recall, were still characteristically shots from the circle), or by being supported by other players who were playing the way you suggest to create room for them.

From this year's Leafs, certainly Matthews was playing the right way, he just couldn't score. Nylander was often very good, but we needed more consistency from his game. Tavares played very well this year. He may not be as fast at 5v5, but he was committed this year. And despite his 14 points in 11 games, Marner was still the guy who neutralized the most. If they are keeping him, they need to find a way to insulate him with some size/grit and not make him the target (i.e., every zone entry begins with Marner or Nylander).

Most any good team wins puck battles. LAK, CHI, PIT, TBL are the four modern dynasties. All of them dictated play. Only LAK were a large physically imposing team that was focused defense first. The other three were rather aggressive offensive teams built on finesse.
- jfkst1

Leafs have 3 of the top 12 takeaway leaders in the League. Marner is first. What they don’t have in the same way are guys who bull their way to the front of the net.

I think you may have missed the part where I mentioned locking up half of your cap into 4 skill/possession players is the mistake.

I never suggested that skill/possession/analytics should be ignored and/or mothballed for a more "truculent" old-time hockey approach. The tacit implication was that there should be a balance of skill/possession with truculence/physicality.

Hope that clears things up!
- mjones242

Two things about your posts:

1. Dubas never said his focus was purely on skill/possession/analytics. He originally said that's where he was starting and believed it was easier to trade for the physical as skill is more difficult to obtain. It's why in the drafts MLSE has tended to prefer skating and skill first.

2. Again, contracts were signed pre-covid. Things changed. Things were changing by the day, week, month. I think had MLSE made a knee jerk reaction to go "flat cap year 1 trade a core!" and then the pandemic slowed/stopped sooner than it did people would freak out in here for making a knee jerk reaction. I honestly don't fault MLSE for waiting and seeing how things transpire with the cap and pandemic. It just sucks that this is where we are.

To their credit, they did a pretty good job of things navigating a really odd situation. Can't blame management for not scoring enough or not executing. We place a lot of blame on execs and coaches but not enough on players simply not doing their job. No larger explanation of trades/signings/cap necessary other than they simply didn't get it done.

The paragraph you quoted I explicitly mentioned locking up half of the cap into the Core 4. Having said that, I should have lead with that caveat rather than followed it up with it - admittedly, it was a bit confusing and I can see how the initial reaction was to assume a completely archaic take.

Something else to consider: I don't think it can be stated enough that the sudden cap freeze put a significant strain on long term plans for this team that were unanticipated by Dubas. I doubt he had intended for half of the cap to be locked up into 4 skilled forwards season-over-season, but it certainly did create a flawed, top-heavy roster construction that had to be carefully navigated.

Definitely agree that a perceived transition from traditional "truculent" hockey to a more skill-based style seemed to be picking up traction. I'm not sure if obstruction/interference ladened playoff hockey has increased in recent years or if it's simply confirmation bias as the Leafs have been ground down every year.

Per Sidney Crosby, while he undoubtedly has superstar skills I think he may be the most underrated grinder in the entire league - his grit is astonishingly underappreciated.
- mjones242

The cap! I think most knew the escrow alignment was coming - I don't think the aggressive nature was as anticipated, but even with that, the cap today following the escrow should be in excess of $90m, if not closer to $95 - if not for the pandemic.

That extra $13m would have helped this team (and others) significantly through this period. Certainly some teams that had their success prior to this and had players locked up in longer cheaper deals through it (Boston obviously comes to mind; jerks!) benefitted greatly.

Two things about your posts:

1. Dubas never said his focus was purely on skill/possession/analytics. He originally said that's where he was starting and believed it was easier to trade for the physical as skill is more difficult to obtain. It's why in the drafts MLSE has tended to prefer skating and skill first.

2. Again, contracts were signed pre-covid. Things changed. Things were changing by the day, week, month. I think had MLSE made a knee jerk reaction to go "flat cap year 1 trade a core!" and then the pandemic slowed/stopped sooner than it did people would freak out in here for making a knee jerk reaction. I honestly don't fault MLSE for waiting and seeing how things transpire with the cap and pandemic. It just sucks that this is where we are.

To their credit, they did a pretty good job of things navigating a really odd situation. Can't blame management for not scoring enough or not executing. We place a lot of blame on execs and coaches but not enough on players simply not doing their job. No larger explanation of trades/signings/cap necessary other than they simply didn't get it done.
- Aaron_85

1. I never said Dubas's entire strategy was to build a purely skill-based roster. He did lock up half of the cap into 4 skill/possession "soft" players but, clearly (at least, I think), the strategy was to build around that pure skill Core 4f forward group. Which leads me into #2:

2. I addressed this in my latest reply to Monkey. I do believe that Dubas's "we can and we will" statement was made with the full intention that he would lock up his "skill" players and then surround them with other key components that were less about generating pure offence.

No one could have anticipated the cap freeze shenanigans. Unfortunately, it exacerbated a roster construction flaw that was never intended to be carried season-over-season.

Kessel in his first cup with the Pens battled far more than normal, although most of his goals, if I recall, were still characteristically shots from the circle
- Monkeypunk

Completely untrue. Kessel played exactly the same every postseason as he always did. 100% finesse and 0% grit. Hagelin and Bonino did the grinding for him in 2016 playoffs and Malkin did it for him in 2017 postseason.

Absolutely agree. I mean from the original list of names that I cited: Rantanen, Makar, Kucherov, Point, O'Reilly, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Kessel, Crosby, Kane . . .

Kucherov doesn't hit, but he's dirty AF; O'Reilly doesn't hit, but he battles; Crosby, Makin, Makar and Rantanen are hard on the puck and tough to beat one-on-one and they win most board battles for a puck.

Kuznetsov, Kessel and Kane (did I just pick KKK? Is that bad?) - who have all enjoyed playoff success - did so by either playing out of character (Kessel in his first cup with the Pens battled far more than normal, although most of his goals, if I recall, were still characteristically shots from the circle), or by being supported by other players who were playing the way you suggest to create room for them.

From this year's Leafs, certainly Matthews was playing the right way, he just couldn't score. Nylander was often very good, but we needed more consistency from his game. Tavares played very well this year. He may not be as fast at 5v5, but he was committed this year. And despite his 14 points in 11 games, Marner was still the guy who neutralized the most. If they are keeping him, they need to find a way to insulate him with some size/grit and not make him the target (i.e., every zone entry begins with Marner or Nylander).
- Monkeypunk

Winning in the playoffs is about north-south hockey, net drive, and net front presence. Unfortunately Mitch Marner brings none of those qualities in the playoffs.

AM34 has won 2 Richards, a Hart, a Pearson, and a first team all-star selection. I think he's played up to his contract for sure.

Marner? Nope.
- mjones242

He was also playing injured almost all year.

He will be a force next year.

I think Leafs will sign local native Carcone to league min. Could be a good value deal.

Rips the A and when given an opportunity the last few seasons he has produced. Is doing well at the Worlds.

Completely untrue. Kessel played exactly the same every postseason as he always did. 100% finesse and 0% grit. Hagelin and Bonino did the grinding for him in 2016 playoffs and Malkin did it for him in 2017 postseason.
- jfkst1

I recall seeing him along the wall and having surprising success. I also recall seeing him on good side of his blue line. It was 7 years ago, but since I like Crosby, I was following the Pens run then as well. Even just looking it up - he had 4 blocked shots, 10 takeaways and 6 hits - other than hits (where his career high was 7 the following year), those are career playoff highs.

I'm not saying Phil Kessel channeled his inner Ovechkin and went on a wrecking spree. I'm saying that as Phil Kessel, he was very involved in the play.

none of the candidates available are better than Dubas

It was a mistake not to re-up him
- twiztedmike

While true a huge mistake would have been making a change for the sake of change.

Dubas was obviously feeling the pressure, he was ripe for the pickings to be taken to the cleaners on Nylander or Marner.

Winning in the playoffs is about north-south hockey, net drive, and net front presence. Unfortunately Mitch Marner brings none of those qualities in the playoffs.
- fifty__missions

There's some recency bias in this statement because it's absolutely what's working _this_ year, but Nathan MacKinnon is anything but a north-south player, nor is Rantanen, Kucherov, Point, Kuznetsov, Kane . . .there are a number of Conn Smythe winners or candidates who support others in north-south hockey with their creativity. Marner needs to stop trying to force a play that isn't there and recognize his 30% vs. 70% chances.

As much as many here hate Nylander, his advantage this playoff was that he has gotten better at recognizing when to hold the puck and when to try and force a play. At times he is too patient with it - but Marner is the opposite. He gets frustrated and the sense of urgency or the sense of needing to DO something seems to get the better of him.

The other real problem with Marner this year was that he wasn't putting himself in a position to be a viable threat - so he was either a non-threat as a shooter from his on-ice position, or he was going to have to pass. It made him easier to defend. Ultimately none of our forwards came through at 5v5 enough, even though Marner did lead the forwards in 5v5 scoring (6pts / 11 games); against Florida he had one - and only Lafferty, Nylander and Kampf had more - with 2. Rielly was by far our most dangerous player at 5v5.

While true a huge mistake would have been making a change for the sake of change.

Dubas was obviously feeling the pressure, he was ripe for the pickings to be taken to the cleaners on Nylander or Marner.
- Santo_44

maybe trelivin can come in and figure it out.

paying johnny huberdoh 10.5 until he is 38 is fine
or Kadri until he is 38?
at least weager is only until he is 37..i think

maybe trelivin can come in and figure it out.

paying johnny huberdoh 10.5 until he is 38 is fine
or Kadri until he is 38?
at least weager is only until he is 37..i think
- senstroll

Dubas has never had 2 major stars demand to leave. Would be interested to see how he would have handled that scenario.

Dubas is one of the better GMs out there, but his clock may have ran out here making good decisions.

Treliving has done good things. I think people are caring too much about who they hire.

Tulsky could be absolute poop as a GM, so could Pirdham.

While true a huge mistake would have been making a change for the sake of change.

Dubas was obviously feeling the pressure, he was ripe for the pickings to be taken to the cleaners on Nylander or Marner.
- Santo_44

I don't think any GM would make a trade just to make a trade when it comes to one of the Core 4 pieces.

The Leafs don't have to trade any of them but I do believe they should explore every possibility and not be afraid to pull the trigger if something makes a lot of sense.

I don't think any GM would make a trade just to make a trade when it comes to one of the Core 4 pieces.

The Leafs don't have to trade any of them but I do believe they should explore every possibility and not be afraid to pull the trigger if something makes a lot of sense.
- mjones242

"Culture change"

There are legitimate people out there that think this core could never get it done and would be a terrible failure if they don't trade them for whatever they can get for them.

There's some recency bias in this statement because it's absolutely what's working _this_ year, but Nathan MacKinnon is anything but a north-south player, nor is Rantanen, Kucherov, Point, Kuznetsov, Kane . . .there are a number of Conn Smythe winners or candidates who support others in north-south hockey with their creativity. Marner needs to stop trying to force a play that isn't there and recognize his 30% vs. 70% chances.

As much as many here hate Nylander, his advantage this playoff was that he has gotten better at recognizing when to hold the puck and when to try and force a play. At times he is too patient with it - but Marner is the opposite. He gets frustrated and the sense of urgency or the sense of needing to DO something seems to get the better of him.

The other real problem with Marner this year was that he wasn't putting himself in a position to be a viable threat - so he was either a non-threat as a shooter from his on-ice position, or he was going to have to pass. It made him easier to defend. Ultimately none of our forwards came through at 5v5 enough, even though Marner did lead the forwards in 5v5 scoring (6pts / 11 games); against Florida he had one - and only Lafferty, Nylander and Kampf had more - with 2. Rielly was by far our most dangerous player at 5v5.
- Monkeypunk

Nate is an interesting player as he has absolutely game breaking, blazing speed (which complements North-South) but also incredible playmaking abilities.

"Culture change"

There are legitimate people out there that think this core could never get it done and would be a terrible failure if they don't trade them for whatever they can get for them.
- Santo_44

Yeah, I get the idea but I don't think this will be a concern. No GM will want to come under the microscope in Hockey Mecca, get fleeced, and then known as the guy who traded a superstar 'cuz culture.

Yeah, I get the idea but I don't think this will be a concern. No GM will want to come under the microscope in Hockey Mecca, get fleeced, and then known as the guy who traded a superstar 'cuz culture.
- mjones242

Exactly, a reason they let go Dubas imo.

I am intersted to see how he handles Pitt if he goes there, that team will be a mess if Crosby still wants to be competitive.

Dubas has never had 2 major stars demand to leave. Would be interested to see how he would have handled that scenario.

Dubas is one of the better GMs out there, but his clock may have ran out here making good decisions.

Treliving has done good things. I think people are caring too much about who they hire.

Tulsky could be absolute poop as a GM, so could Pirdham.
- Santo_44

This statement is highly debatable.

Oilers have no cap space.

Ryan McLeod is a good target.

Ryan McLeod:
57.2 xGF% in the regular season.
62.4 xGF% in the playoffs.

He barely played with McDavid and Draisaitl. He had roughly the same 5v5 primary points per minute as Bunting this season.

6'2" centre and only 23. RFA.

He's one of my top offseason targets.

This statement is highly debatable.
- mjones242

Opinionated, like all sports entertainment.

From my perspective he is one of the better gms out there.

There's some recency bias in this statement because it's absolutely what's working _this_ year, but Nathan MacKinnon is anything but a north-south player, nor is Rantanen, Kucherov, Point, Kuznetsov, Kane . . .there are a number of Conn Smythe winners or candidates who support others in north-south hockey with their creativity. Marner needs to stop trying to force a play that isn't there and recognize his 30% vs. 70% chances.

As much as many here hate Nylander, his advantage this playoff was that he has gotten better at recognizing when to hold the puck and when to try and force a play. At times he is too patient with it - but Marner is the opposite. He gets frustrated and the sense of urgency or the sense of needing to DO something seems to get the better of him.

The other real problem with Marner this year was that he wasn't putting himself in a position to be a viable threat - so he was either a non-threat as a shooter from his on-ice position, or he was going to have to pass. It made him easier to defend. Ultimately none of our forwards came through at 5v5 enough, even though Marner did lead the forwards in 5v5 scoring (6pts / 11 games); against Florida he had one - and only Lafferty, Nylander and Kampf had more - with 2. Rielly was by far our most dangerous player at 5v5.
- Monkeypunk

All of those players you mentioned there - ALL of them - attack the net with speed. That was entirely absent from Mitch Marners game.

Exactly, a reason they let go Dubas imo.

I am intersted to see how he handles Pitt if he goes there, that team will be a mess if Crosby still wants to be competitive.
- Santo_44

There's a lot more flexibility under the cap to work with in Pittsburgh but obviously significantly more holes.

I wonder if Sid and Malkin would take home discounts in their next - possibly last major - contract for the Pens?