https://twitter.com/frank_seravall/status/1661032332977922049?s=46&t=xdbwDZlJpKsy8vg5wHUWXg

After speaking with a few staff members at MLSE about the apparent rift between Shanahan and Dubas, I was told that it began in the 2021 offseason. Dubas had a deal in place to send a 2021 5th (#153) to Buffalo for Tage Thompson, but it was nixed due to lack of draft capital.


So uh, why did they fire Dubas?
- bryant

No way that's true. Why would anyone nix a 5th rounder.

I'm really, really hoping for Tulsky. Sounds like he may be a pipe dream with his lack of "actual GM" experience though.

I feel like Shanahan is going to want to pin his hopes on someone who has clear experience in the role. Treliving is probably the guy. Ugh.
- mjones242

Sends shivers.

The team's starters have the 9th best ERA in the Majors which isn't bad - you're right that it's largely buoyed by Gausman and Bassitt - and Kikuchi for a 5th starter has been excellent. I think Berrios has been mismanaged in that he's often left in too long - like until he screws up and then it's too late, but he's got about a 90 pitch cap.

The relievers are 16th in ERA, with a FIP that's 21st, so the fielders are saving their bacon a fair bit. I also feel the 'pen is mismanaged. Guys get overused, and they also warm guys up in the pen and then sit them down and then warm them up later - we've seen them do it with Zach 3 times in one game. That's not healthy. It leads to injuries and it leads to poor performance from the pitcher.

The bats have been ok - WRC+ is 10th, but while I don't have the stats handy, you feel like they just aren't hitting with runners in scoring position when it matters. Edit: The Jays are 24th in the league with runners in scoring position.

Lots of runway left for this team and there's a ton of room for them to get better than this, but there's a concerning pattern that runs right back to how we lost to Seattle last year. Lack of timely hitting and lack of consistent relief pitching.
- Monkeypunk

See in a month where everyone stands. Will be past halfway in the season should have a better idea of the team. Definitely have a wild card chance.

We could always look down on the orioles but they have turned the tables
- Aaron_85

My Bombers heading to the top as well. Got that young blood in the lineup now. FINALLY!!

The team's starters have the 9th best ERA in the Majors which isn't bad - you're right that it's largely buoyed by Gausman and Bassitt - and Kikuchi for a 5th starter has been excellent. I think Berrios has been mismanaged in that he's often left in too long - like until he screws up and then it's too late, but he's got about a 90 pitch cap.

The relievers are 16th in ERA, with a FIP that's 21st, so the fielders are saving their bacon a fair bit. I also feel the 'pen is mismanaged. Guys get overused, and they also warm guys up in the pen and then sit them down and then warm them up later - we've seen them do it with Zach 3 times in one game. That's not healthy. It leads to injuries and it leads to poor performance from the pitcher.

The bats have been ok - WRC+ is 10th, but while I don't have the stats handy, you feel like they just aren't hitting with runners in scoring position when it matters. Edit: The Jays are 24th in the league with runners in scoring position.

Lots of runway left for this team and there's a ton of room for them to get better than this, but there's a concerning pattern that runs right back to how we lost to Seattle last year. Lack of timely hitting and lack of consistent relief pitching.
- Monkeypunk

baseball!!!


on May 22

2023: 25-23
.257 average (5th)
.329 OBP (5th)
.407 slugging (8th)

2022: 28-20
.233 avg (18th)
.298 obp (21st)
.374 slg (19th)

If he doesn't and he takes a break, you going to take a break too?
- Aaron_85

What I think is funny is the Dubas haters who wanted a big piece of the core traded was more likely with Dubas as the GM going forward.

CJ said word is the core 4 felt that the calls from Shanny meant they were going to be kept.

“What I took from Kyle’s comments [is they] were accurate and honest, which is without making any promises we will look at everything in the organization and try to make decisions that will make us better,” Shanahan explained. “That might not be on the timeline that everybody wants: It might not occur just this summer, it might occur during the season, it might occur on the next trade deadline.

“But just being different doesn't solve something.”


Sorry but its not certain that the core is broken up.

looking forward to the new 95 point 8th seed fringe playoff team that wins multiple cups
- senstroll

I would take that each and every year!!!!!

The primary concerns for these players are what?

1. Money
2. Winning
3. Lifestyle/Comfort

1. Money favours staying in Toronto.
2. Winning - Toronto's right up there - especially when you consider most contenders are already paying their own stars.
3. The record is pretty clear he loves it in Toronto.

Maybe he wants a change or wants to be a star in L.A. or NYC but those teams would have work to do to make that happen. I don't know how anyone could be confident that he's leaving at this point.
- The Law

Any contending team would have to clear a bunch of cap space to sign AM if he refuses to in TO. Not sure how many would like true contenders after that.

Maybe TO is looking rosier by the minute.

What I think is funny is the Dubas haters who wanted a big piece of the core traded was more likely with Dubas as the GM going forward.

CJ said word is the core 4 felt that the calls from Shanny meant they were going to be kept.

“What I took from Kyle’s comments
- Santo_44[is they] were accurate and honest, which is without making any promises we will look at everything in the organization and try to make decisions that will make us better,” Shanahan explained. “That might not be on the timeline that everybody wants: It might not occur just this summer, it might occur during the season, it might occur on the next trade deadline.

“But just being different doesn't solve something.”


Sorry but its not certain that the core is broken up.

it makes more sense that Dubas would make some tough but big moves at this point.

but a new GM, why would he come in and (frank) up a 110 point team. hes got runway to milk the team in place

it makes more sense that Dubas would make some tough but big moves at this point.

but a new GM, why would he come in and (frank) up a 110 point team. hes got runway to milk the team in place
- senstroll

Absolutely.

Trade Marner and lose the trade first move?

If anything you are coming in with a glorious opportunity to surround talented players with better support.

It sounds like Shanny didn't like what he said about trading the core. You listen for sure...but the leafs are not trading and getting worse.

The new guy wants to see what he can do with an elite team before trading away a core piece.

It was a negotiation, a power play on his part all along, that he overplayed.

He's going to be working somewhere very soon.
- fifty__missions

Disagree about it being a 'power play' it was likely viewed by Dubas as a negotiation because in most cases a contract offer is exactly that.

This reeks of Shanny and/or MLSE board being knobs and classless in my opinion & many others here and outside of here I've discussed this with.

We will not be offering you an extension until the year is over and we decide if we want to keep you.

Ok year is nearly over we want to keep you here is an offer.

Let me mull it over and discuss with family I'm not sure this offer is for me.

Ok I like the job but would like some more $ to do it.

No we decided the minute you didn't just take our offer you were not who we wanted but we have waited until now to tell you this and will air the dirty laundry publically.

Ok I'll keep it classy and take the high road with my public statment.

That's how I view this as having gone down & it's a joke. Shanny has done jack poop in 10 years here but Dubas is the reason they have had such limited success in the playoffs?

OK Shanny Wives (see how stupid that sounds?).

Disagree about it being a 'power play' it was likely viewed by Dubas as a negotiation because in most cases a contract offer is exactly that.

This reeks of Shanny and/or MLSE board being knobs and classless in my opinion & many others here and outside of here I've discussed this with.

We will not be offering you an extension until the year is over and we decide if we want to keep you.

Ok year is nearly over we want to keep you here is an offer.

Let me mull it over and discuss with family I'm not sure this offer is for me.

Ok I like the job but would like some more $ to do it.

No we decided the minute you didn't just take our offer you were not who we wanted but we have waited until now to tell you this and will air the dirty laundry publically.

Ok I'll keep it classy and take the high road with my public statment.

That's how I view this as having gone down & it's a joke. Shanny has done jack poop in 10 years here but Dubas is the reason they have had such limited success in the playoffs?

OK Shanny Wives (see how stupid that sounds?).
- Cush29

I don't know, it seems like people are either on Team Kyle or Team Shanahan.. From what I've read, heard is that Dubas counter offer also included more power..

I don't know about you, but if I went to my boss and said "I want to be paid the same salary as you and have more power", my boss would probably say "yeah right, ok.. Also, you're fired"

Absolutely.

Trade Marner and lose the trade first move?

If anything you are coming in with a glorious opportunity to surround talented players with better support.

It sounds like Shanny didn't like what he said about trading the core. You listen for sure...but the leafs are not trading and getting worse.

The new guy wants to see what he can do with an elite team before trading away a core piece.
- Santo_44

It's tough to get a read on anything really, Friedman, Johnston, Seravalli and others are all saying different things.. Who knows what the truth is.

It's tough to get a read on anything really, Friedman, Johnston, Seravalli and others are all saying different things.. Who knows what the truth is.
- PatC80

Nothing has been conflicting at all.

Freidman has been saying some GM names you'll hear

He said a player on the team told him they weren't sure if Matthews would sign by July 1st with Dubas because of the potential big changes

If anything its been consistent and easy to piece together that Shannahan and Dubas were not on the same page going forward with changes.

Nothing has been conflicting at all.

Freidman has been saying some GM names you'll hear

He said a player on the team told him they weren't sure if Matthews would sign by July 1st with Dubas because of the potential big changes

If anything its been consistent and easy to piece together that Shannahan and Dubas were not on the same page going forward with changes.
- Santo_44

I agree there's a rift between Shanny and Dubas, but I am referring to the Core 4.. Friedman on his 32 thoughts podcast saying stuff like it's gonna be "Game of Thrones" like? Dreger saying stuff like they are all safe.. Kypreos saying Matthews not staying..

We don't even know if the new GM will make any moves at all.

Nothing has been conflicting at all.

Freidman has been saying some GM names you'll hear

He said a player on the team told him they weren't sure if Matthews would sign by July 1st with Dubas because of the potential big changes

If anything its been consistent and easy to piece together that Shannahan and Dubas were not on the same page going forward with changes.
- Santo_44

Even the Doug Armstrong rumours are conflicting. Yes/No/Maybe?

I agree there's a rift between Shanny and Dubas, but I am referring to the Core 4.. Friedman on his 32 thoughts podcast saying stuff like it's gonna be "Game of Thrones" like? Dreger saying stuff like they are all safe.. Kypreos saying Matthews not staying..

We don't even know if the new GM will make any moves at all.
- PatC80

All I know is I am 100% sure that Kypreos has no inside information

All I know is I am 100% sure that Kypreos has no inside information
- Azuredoom

Also true, yes.

Even the Doug Armstrong rumours are conflicting. Yes/No/Maybe?
- PatC80

Yes please.

I agree there's a rift between Shanny and Dubas, but I am referring to the Core 4.. Friedman on his 32 thoughts podcast saying stuff like it's gonna be "Game of Thrones" like? Dreger saying stuff like they are all safe.. Kypreos saying Matthews not staying..

We don't even know if the new GM will make any moves at all.
- PatC80

I could care less what Kypreos says.

Post Dubas firing Elliotte has said nothing about core 4 being moved besides opinions on any destinations.

One thing is for certain and its Shanny not liking Dubas comments about making a massive change with core 4, and that is coming from Shanny.

Let's not blame the division here - the Jays have not been good.
- fifty__missions

Let's dig a little bit closer: the Jays have not been good against their division. They are 5-13 against AL East clubs while 20-10 against the rest.

Sends shivers.
- Leafsmart

Brad Treliving’s dad knows Toronto Maple Leafs co-owner Larry Tanenbaum.
- Luke Fox

Oh boy.

What I think is funny is the Dubas haters who wanted a big piece of the core traded was more likely with Dubas as the GM going forward.

CJ said word is the core 4 felt that the calls from Shanny meant they were going to be kept.

“What I took from Kyle’s comments
- Santo_44[is they] were accurate and honest, which is without making any promises we will look at everything in the organization and try to make decisions that will make us better,” Shanahan explained. “That might not be on the timeline that everybody wants: It might not occur just this summer, it might occur during the season, it might occur on the next trade deadline.

“But just being different doesn't solve something.”


Sorry but its not certain that the core is broken up.

Really, it's the smart thing and the only thing to say right now. Not saying it necessarily happens but if you end up trading one, so be it. Masai said he wasn't trading DeMar and did it like four days later.

New GMs don't always immediately shoot the current coach into the sun. As a matter of fact, a lot of them like to hang on to that piece to be sacrificed at a later date.

Keefe may survive the day yet!
- mjones242

Keefe chose his Holl to die on and that's exactly what should happen.

There's good coaches available. Sign one of them before someone else does.

That's why I want the GM decided quickly, before all the coaches (Brunette) are interviewed and signed elsewhere.

I don't know, it seems like people are either on Team Kyle or Team Shanahan.. From what I've read, heard is that Dubas counter offer also included more power..

I don't know about you, but if I went to my boss and said "I want to be paid the same salary as you and have more power", my boss would probably say "yeah right, ok.. Also, you're fired"
- PatC80

Here is the thing, if you were negotiating a contract would they actually say that? This isn't a situation where IN A CONTRACT Dubas is going to his boss and saying "gimme more money, & more power".

His contract was about to be up and that's when you negotiate.

Unless the opening offer was presented as "this is our one and only, best offer take it or leave" then to me it's a poopty way of doing business.

Case in point, I was successful in moving into a higher Mgt role after a job competition. I was offered the role and a salary, I counter offered for more $.

I wasn't fired for asking for more, all they can say is no.

As far as a Team Kyle or Team Shanny - m'eh. I was fine if Dubas wanted to leave, I thought he had done enough in the past 2 years to show he was able to adapt and change his approach & was the right guy to carry on (with a new coach) and make the big change that needed to be made. I also understand it's a business and was ok if MLSE felt differently and decided to fire him. My issue is how this was all handled reeks of MLSE mishandling it Shanny included.

I also really question why Shanny is allowed to continue in his role after a decade if the level of success the team he is responsible for has not met the expectations of the board. He's had 2 GM's now (soon to be 3) and likely soon to be 3 coaches in that time.

And if the stories of the oversight from Shanny is true can't say I'm surprised Dubas wanted more power - also not shocked MLSE didn't give it to him.