Agreed. To win a cup you need your 3rd and 4th lines to be on opposing teams radar for matchups and not an after thought.

Hawks got massive goals and huge minutes moved away from guys like toews by depth players.

If 2 lines won cups leafs would have a dynasty. As would the rangers.
- SteveRain

Even Jaden Schwartz was a 1st round pick.

I'm not evading anything.

The Stanley Cup Finals are not an All-Star game and therefore lower line players play their 10 or 12 minutes and contribute. However if you go back and look at the leading scorers and top D men on all the Cup Winners, they are predominately 1st round picks. Andrew Ladd was a 1st round pick in Carolina and an awesome depth player for the Hawks. Looked like a cornerstone player. Made a fortune. Was never a top 10 player after he left the Hawks in my opinion.

Go back through the past 10 years and show me the real difference makers that were not high picks. Marchand. Machessault, Silverberg, Bonino and Tyler Johnson come to mind as guys who had years in which their playoff performance dramatically exceeded who they were. Yes there is occasionally a goalie. But overall, the teams best players, who are typically their high picks make it happen and determine who wins.

Cooper won championships everywhere he coached. NAHL, USHL, AHL, NHL. Dude can flat out evaluate and coach.
- Mr Ricochet

Yes, best coach in the NHL in my opinion. Gets the most out of the guys on the roster.

And your commercial real estate wasn't going to be busy during covid, but it is ok now!
Buffalo of course is on the doorstep selecting two high end defenders and the first one Dahlin finally showing his status as an elite one.

We are so far down the ladder rungs from them or even being competitive and the Hawks need lots.
Your point about second rounders is well documented for "regular draft years" but this one due to covid is an almost doubling of first rounders due to that. They progressed and are now better species to evaluate and select.

The Red Wings have been using draft capital to move around the boards for their "guys' like in Goalie S. Cossa.

So maybe that 7% is up to 20% on playing 300 games...I do not necessarily playing 200 games soon...we want them doing it as things become competitive and they add to the overall smarts and talent here.

Kaiser looks competent, as does 2nd rounder Vlasic, and Seabrook heir Allen.

Cripes, Steven, their BU goalie is a second rounder.

I like the thickness in the class and so many of these second rounders that statistically are a pain in your butt.
- wiz1901

Yeah, not even close.

is anyone saying that you have to fill out Bedard's linemates with second round picks? You still have to ice the other three lines and two pairs.

You are right in saying that the odds are down on second round picks, but there is also no other real way to build a team than through the draft because of the salary cap. You need young players under control at low or at least reasonable cap hits to become and remain competitive.

Do teams have the occasional hits with players from overseas? Sure, but not exceedingly often (I'll give you Panarin, but are Kubalik and Suter really considered successes?). There are also very good players acquired through trades and FA, but long term, it is not sustainable because the math never works.
- Chunk

Kubalik was a 7th round pick. He has 161 points in 283 games. Yeah, I would consider him a success with where he was picked.

Suter has 87 points in 216 games at the cost of nothing more than a contract. I would call those decent 3rd line numbers.

Neither are stars but I would consider both a success all things considered.

https://www.stubhub.com/grouping/117417?AffiliateID=49&PCID=PSUSBINSPONHLD648E6A7B1C8&AdID=81157820943474&gclid=53102dfd26ee13bce91249a3ee2d9bbd%2c53102dfd26ee13bce91249a3ee2d9bbd&ps_p=1%2c1&ps_ag=1298523681121683%2c1298523681121683&ps_tg=kwd-81157982095088%3aloc-190%2ckwd-81157982095088%3aloc-190&ps=&ps=&ps_c=470205745&ps_ad=81157820943474&ps_n=o&ps_d=c&gcid=C12289X021&keyword=1298523681121683kwd-81157982095088%3aloc-190_c&creative=&utm_kxconfid=s2rshsbmv&utm_campaign=470205745&kwt=nb&mt=e&kw=NHL+Draft+Nashville&ap=&ploc=72121&iloc=64811&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=paid-search&utm_sub_medium=prospecting&utm_term=nb&utm_content=default&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=53102dfd26ee13bce91249a3ee2d9bbd



the first bar on the left of the street near the stadiums where EVERYbody's scouts go.
Suzanne and Gary Seabrook's son was drafted to the Hawks at that draft. It was so much fun the last time, NJ rejoicing they got Zach Parise at slot #17

that is a link for tickets -do it soon, and let me know where you are sitting...
- wiz1901

Rippy's I've hung out there a bunch when I'm down there its a little less crazy than some. That being said, 4 other couples going, I won't actually "be allowed" to go to the draft.....will be cool to be down there though.

Kid Rock tickets on Saturday night at Bridgestone, so its going to be quite the crazy weekend on Broadway.

Just hoping my liver survives

I think you’re right, most of the best players come out of the CHL. But that’s changing, like you said Makar, Matthews, Toews and many others. But say you’re the father of a pretty good hockey player. He has a choice, play Junior or play in the NCAA and receive an education at the same time. Which do you guide him to? There’s absolutely no doubt where I want him. I want the back up of a good education in case he doesn’t make it.
- paulr

If you play juniors in Canada and you don't go pro they pay for your college education at a Canadian school. If your kid gets drafted by the London Knights, I think you have to let him chase his NHL dream. There is time to go to Western and get a degree.

So... the original question/disagreement was that you said that counting on 2nd rounders was ill conceived and that the Hawks need better players than typically come out of that round. I said that you need players from those later rounds to fill out the roster

I asked the means you would use to construct a team and you say you need great goaltending, and lay out how you see the Hawks current pipeline. Also that the GM needs to sign guys early and for term.

There are plenty of teams that have won with above average goaltending, as well as even more who have consistently lost with great goaltending.

Where do you find these players to sign to early and for term?

There is more than one way to build a team, but the draft needs to be a major component because you need really good young players with low cap hits. There are only so many Hagels out there to obtain, and as we saw, they are extremely expensive to acquire from other teams.

To your point about difference makers, how many FA's from overseas have really been difference makers outside of Panarin?
- Chunk

I'm thinking European FA such as Bobrovsky, Georgiev, Lybushkin, Kempny, Ruuta, Raffl, Micheyev, Barbashov, Karlson, Dadanov or Zuch.

Yeah, not even close.
- Elbows15

Couldn't carry Seab's jock.

Very much like your posts, Steve. Keep them coming especially stuff you see at RKF..........

No doubt building a good, let alone a cup winning, roster is a multi-pronged process full of land mines. But it all starts with scouting, evaluating then drafting and developing players. Everything else follows.

Have a thought on the rookie Dmen that should play with the Hawks next yr, especially Kaiser?
- Mr Ricochet

I don't think there are going to be a lot of young Dmen on the Hawks next year. Seems to me they will make KK and Allen get some time in Rockford. Probalby Vlasic and Phillips for 40+ games. Defense in the NHL is so tough and 1 mistake can cost a game, the playoffs and the Cup so young guys have to be flawless in their own zone or the sit or go back to AHL. Probably lots of veteran D on 1 year deals.

Leafs fans staying classy…

Even Jaden Schwartz was a 1st round pick.

I'm not evading anything.

The Stanley Cup Finals are not an All-Star game and therefore lower line players play their 10 or 12 minutes and contribute. However if you go back and look at the leading scorers and top D men on all the Cup Winners, they are predominately 1st round picks. Andrew Ladd was a 1st round pick in Carolina and an awesome depth player for the Hawks. Looked like a cornerstone player. Made a fortune. Was never a top 10 player after he left the Hawks in my opinion.

Go back through the past 10 years and show me the real difference makers that were not high picks. Marchand. Machessault, Silverberg, Bonino and Tyler Johnson come to mind as guys who had years in which their playoff performance dramatically exceeded who they were. Yes there is occasionally a goalie. But overall, the teams best players, who are typically their high picks make it happen and determine who wins.
- stevefrmglencoe

Patrick sharp
Big buff
Krecji
Bergeron
Lucic
Bickell
Pavelski
Guentzel

All these guys finished top 5 in points in each year in the playoffs

You need your top guys to hit and produce but you also need depth guys to exploit matchups. And by depth I mean picks. Some of these guys played higher line minutes regardless of where they were drafted.

IMO key is replenishing these guys like a bickell etc in house and not paying. That’s how you avoid cap hell.

Leafs fans staying classy…
- Chief4Feathers

Always. Tough call. Hard to see but rule on the ice held firm

20 minutes. Que the William Wallace gif…..

Patrick sharp
Big buff
Krecji
Bergeron
Lucic
Bickell
Pavelski
Guentzel

All these guys finished top 5 in points in each year in the playoffs

You need your top guys to hit and produce but you also need depth guys to exploit matchups. And by depth I mean picks. Some of these guys played higher line minutes regardless of where they were drafted.

IMO key is replenishing these guys like a bickell etc in house and not paying. That’s how you avoid cap hell.
- SteveRain

Point well taken nice list of names. But they didn't all finish top 5 each year in the playoffs and with the exception of the Bruins they all finished in points behind high first rounders. Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Couture.

Always. Tough call. Hard to see but rule on the ice held firm

20 minutes. Que the William Wallace gif…..
- SteveRain

No goal all the way IMO. If they lose it will be their excuse for the whole summer.

And do the Leafs ever get a penalty from these refs? Too many men at least 2X - no call.

No goal all the way IMO. If they lose it will be their excuse for the whole summer.

And do the Leafs ever get a penalty from these refs? Too many men at least 2X - no call.
- RickJ

Leaf fans are still whining about the missed Gretzky high stick on Gilmour … in 1993!

Kubalik was a 7th round pick. He has 161 points in 283 games. Yeah, I would consider him a success with where he was picked.

Suter has 87 points in 216 games at the cost of nothing more than a contract. I would call those decent 3rd line numbers.

Neither are stars but I would consider both a success all things considered.
- Elbows15

Sorry, I meant Kahun not Kubalik. I’ll grant that those are decent numbers, but the original question was about guys the “move the needle”.

Let the female dogin begin

Let the female dogin begin
- 6628

Let the female dogin begin
- 6628

Ohhh… that’s a shame.

Leaf fans are still whining about the missed Gretzky high stick on Gilmour … in 1993!
- paulr

100%. Damn shame.

Death. Taxes. Leafs choking. 😂😂😂

Point well taken nice list of names. But they didn't all finish top 5 each year in the playoffs and with the exception of the Bruins they all finished in points behind high first rounders. Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Couture.
- stevefrmglencoe

They all finished top 5 in playoff scoring. I agree on importance of top end skill
But you asked for guys in later rounds making a real difference. Most of these guys had double digit goals in cup winning years.

All good. Need high end skill and depth that can chip in consistently in series is huge. 100% some aren’t worth extending as you can back fill internally. 👍🏻

Let the female dogin begin
- 6628

Wonder if that bearded lady is dancing tonight?

Point well taken nice list of names. But they didn't all finish top 5 each year in the playoffs and with the exception of the Bruins they all finished in points behind high first rounders. Toews, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Couture.
- stevefrmglencoe

Since you're unable to answer the previous question, how about we narrow it down to the Hawks....

At least two (often three) of the top six were drafted after the first round. So was Keith. And Crawford. And Hammer. And Bolland, Kreuger and Shaw. And Bickell.

You are full of crap.

Since you're unable to answer the previous question, how about we narrow it down to the Hawks....

At least two (often three) of the top six were drafted after the first round. So was Keith. And Crawford. And Hammer. And Bolland, Kreuger and Shaw. And Bickell.

You are full of crap.
- mohel

Saad, Brower, Burish, Byfuglien, Sharp via trade, Versteeg via trade

Saad, Brower, Burish, Byfuglien, Sharp via trade, Versteeg via trade
- boilermaker100

Yep, them, too.