I've given you an opportunity here. You have not made any argument at all. You just keep using rhetoric and hyperbole and your flawed belief that I know something for a fact. You came up small here. Apparently not even aware that the Selke trophy ballots have not been cast yet. The vote has not happened yet.

Your Carrey analogy is unintelligent.

I have given both you and Richards18 on the other thread an opportunity. You responded as expected. You have nothing. You can both resume trolling now.
- MJL

you are comparing Bergeron, the best Selke winner ever, who took 8 years to win his first Selke, to...

Cates, a "misused", out of position rookie getting Selke consideration. He won't win but your Bergeron comparison is completely disingenuous. You can't stand the idea that Tort's use is actually making a positive impact. You always speak about sample size for players and only give it creedence when it fits your narrative. 16 games is good enough for you over here with Player A but not for Player B? You're all over the place.

But I get it, you don't like Torts.

you are comparing Bergeron, the best Selke winner ever, who took 8 years to win his first Selke, to...

Cates, a "misused", out of position rookie getting Selke consideration. He won't win but your Bergeron comparison is completely disingenuous. You can't stand the idea that Tort's use is actually making a positive impact. You always speak about sample size for players and only give it creedence when it fits your narrative. 16 games is good enough for you over here with Player A but not for Player B? You're all over the place.

But I get it, you don't like Torts.
- black_francis

You're still incorrect. The comparison was used to show that Cates does not have Selke level stats. It is not comparing Cates to Bergeron as a player.
You fail to realize that my position is not that Cates can't play center or that he is not very good defensively as a center. My position is that he has a higher upside as a winger and it is a better position for him. I also have never said that playing Cates at center is not making a positive impact. My position is also not solely based on the 16 game sample from last year, You are woefully uninformed.

You keep posting that has been given Selke consideration. He may get that but it hasn't happened yet. Selke voting does not take place until the conclusion of regular NHL season. It is also irrelevant to my premise as my issue is not with his defensive play.

Always thought he was a good player, wasn’t happy when he went to the rags
- Peter Richards

And the Rangers turned him into Zibanejad..not bad trade

You're still incorrect. The comparison was used to show that Cates does not have Selke level stats. It is not comparing Cates to Bergeron as a player.
You fail to realize that my position is not that Cates can't play center or that he is not very good defensively as a center. My position is that he has a higher upside as a winger and it is a better position for him. I also have never said that playing Cates at center is not making a positive impact. My position is also not solely based on the 16 game sample from last year, You are woefully uninformed.

You keep posting that has been given Selke consideration. He may get that but it hasn't happened yet. Selke voting does not take place until the conclusion of regular NHL season. It is also irrelevant to my premise as my issue is not with his defensive play.
- MJL

you compared them directly....

And the Rangers turned him into Zibanejad..not bad trade
- hfc355

It was a great trade. Brassard was pretty much done as a high level player at that point. While Zibanejad remains a stud.

You're still incorrect. The comparison was used to show that Cates does not have Selke level stats. It is not comparing Cates to Bergeron as a player.
You fail to realize that my position is not that Cates can't play center or that he is not very good defensively as a center. My position is that he has a higher upside as a winger and it is a better position for him. I also have never said that playing Cates at center is not making a positive impact. My position is also not solely based on the 16 game sample from last year, You are woefully uninformed.

You keep posting that has been given Selke consideration. He may get that but it hasn't happened yet. Selke voting does not take place until the conclusion of regular NHL season. It is also irrelevant to my premise as my issue is not with his defensive play.
- MJL

i feel like im in the Twilight Zone

It is small which is why the opinion is offered not a fact but as a premise. In that he could have a higher upside as a winger based on the information available that I have repeatedly posted. It's based on his production rate as a winger versus a center and the skill set and raw talent that he has.
- MJL

‘22 on wing 16 gp with .56 p/gp
‘23 at center 36 gp with .53 p/gp

.03 difference

This year alone is more than twice the sample size with similar offensive output along with playing a more difficult position without proper slotting, meanwhile being the best defensive forward on the team. His success with the experience this year makes him a more valuable forward.

You keep your stance. You choose your own hill to die on. Even though you claim that Cates development has been harmed by learning a new position, that is ONLY in your head. I know you wouldn’t even admit you were wrong if the Flyers somehow become competitive, Cates does play the wing and in a crucial time due to injury, fills in at center allowing the team to charge on without skipping a beat.

i feel like im in the Twilight Zone

- black_francis

You've both been given an opportunity to have direct one on one interaction with me. You both have nothing. You can both resume trolling now.

You've both been given an opportunity to have direct one on one interaction with me. You both have nothing. You can both resume trolling now.
- MJL

well that's one way to bow out after completely contradicting yourself

‘22 on wing 16 gp with .56 p/gp
‘23 at center 36 gp with .53 p/gp

.03 difference

This year alone is more than twice the sample size with similar offensive output along with playing a more difficult position without proper slotting, meanwhile being the best defensive forward on the team. His success with the experience this year makes him a more valuable forward.

You keep your stance. You choose your own hill to die on. Even though you claim that Cates development has been harmed by learning a new position, that is ONLY in your head. I know you wouldn’t even admit you were wrong if the Flyers somehow become competitive, Cates does play the wing and in a crucial time due to injury, fills in at center allowing the team to charge on without skipping a beat.
- NC Flyers Fan

The one caveat that I will add to counter this is that his line mates can arguably be said are much higher quality this season. So his numbers should be noticeably higher from an offensive standpoint. They are lower. .03 in the grand scheme is identical, But I feel like playing with the players he has this season, the numbers should be higher. That is all I'm saying.

‘22 on wing 16 gp with .56 p/gp
‘23 at center 36 gp with .53 p/gp

.03 difference

This year alone is more than twice the sample size with similar offensive output along with playing a more difficult position without proper slotting, meanwhile being the best defensive forward on the team. His success with the experience this year makes him a more valuable forward.

You keep your stance. You choose your own hill to die on. Even though you claim that Cates development has been harmed by learning a new position, that is ONLY in your head. I know you wouldn’t even admit you were wrong if the Flyers somehow become competitive, Cates does play the wing and in a crucial time due to injury, fills in at center allowing the team to charge on without skipping a beat.
- NC Flyers Fan

Scoring rate at 5 on 5.

Cates playing wing in 20/21 2.51 P/60

Cates playing center in 21/22 1.43 P/60

Scoring rate along with ice time and usage has been explained numerous times.

I'll be glad to admit that I'm wrong when you prove that I am.

Apparently now you have changed your position from it being unprovable, to now being provable.

You have the opinion that being versatile and being able to play more than one position is more valuable than a player maximizing his potential at one position. Which is my opinion.

The one caveat that I will add to counter this is that his line mates can arguably be said are much higher quality this season. So his numbers should be noticeably higher from an offensive standpoint. They are lower. .03 in the grand scheme is identical, But I feel like playing with the players he has this season, the numbers should be higher. That is all I'm saying.
- MBFlyerfan

I agree but you could also mitigate that with being on a low scoring team, the only bonafide top winger was TK and he has been out. I don’t think Cates has the traditional C passing and puck carrying abilities, he would need a younger G type on his wing.

Scoring rate at 5 on 5.

Cates playing wing in 20/21 2.51 P/60

Cates playing center in 21/22 1.43 P/60

Scoring rate along with ice time and usage has been explained numerous times.

I'll be glad to admit that I'm wrong when you prove that I am.

Apparently now you have changed your position from it being unprovable, to now being provable.

You have the opinion that being versatile and being able to play more than one position is more valuable than a player maximizing his potential at one position. Which is my opinion.
- MJL

and I submit that if he is having a positive impact on the team that he is not being misused. Obviously Torts sees something in his game to slot him there. And he's succeeded. Versus this hypothetical guarantee he'd be better off at LW. Pure speculation. You can have a small sample size that correlates to your opinion but none of that is guaranteed.

Torts addressed the OT 2D 1F recently and sounded like he wants to go back to 2F and 1D eventually. The problem the Flyers had was puck possession which in the beginning the 2D 1F grouping did help with. Torts also didn't feel he could trust many forwards out there. I think this will change next season, and maybe even sooner than that.
- jd250

That's super. It's only taken having the worst single season overtime record since 2005 to get Tyrannosaurus Torts to admit that he might need to change his approach.

It certainly is but it’s an entirely different game than say game 15 of the season.
- ClaudeFather

Not really. The Flyers have been out of realistic playoff contention since November.

and I submit that if he is having a positive impact on the team that he is not being misused. Obviously Torts sees something in his game to slot him there. And he's succeeded. Versus this hypothetical guarantee he'd be better off at LW. Pure speculation. You can have a small sample size that correlates to your opinion but none of that is guaranteed.
- black_francis

The goal for a team in the Flyers position should be to maximize the development of young players. Not to play them out of position for the good of the team. That the player is making a positive impact at center does not preclude or remove the possibility that playing the player at wing would be better for his long term development. This guarantee or labeling opinion as fact is your invention and your problem. Not mine. You are quickly running out of opportunity with me. You are failing miserably.

The one caveat that I will add to counter this is that his line mates can arguably be said are much higher quality this season. So his numbers should be noticeably higher from an offensive standpoint. They are lower. .03 in the grand scheme is identical, But I feel like playing with the players he has this season, the numbers should be higher. That is all I'm saying.
- MBFlyerfan

yes, but also the difference of 3rd line vs going against the other teams first line. another big difference

Not really. The Flyers have been out of realistic playoff contention since November.
- Feanor

Home stretch of the season on a bad team verse November when you are playing for your spot the next night with 40-50 games left. Yea, same thing.

After 73 games Cates doesn't look any more like a playmaker with vision than he did at the start of the season, and his faceoffs are still very poor. I think the main reason Torts moved him to center was just so he could stick it to Hayes, who he's trying to ride out of here on a rail.

Home stretch of the season on a bad team verse November when you are playing for your spot the next night with 40-50 games left. Yea, same thing.
- ClaudeFather

Frost still is playing for his spot on the team and his next contract, so yeah, it is the same thing - a National Hockey League regular season game.

You can't take the humanity out of the game. This isn't a video game where you can simulate. If it was, Corey Perry would have scored 50 goals every year since 2012.

There are factors that go into a coaches decision and there are factors that can help elevate a players play.

What if he was at wing all year? With the emergence of TK and Tippett, the return of Farabee this year that's a lot of pressure to keep up with for a rookie and he'd be battling uphill for slotting. Who knows how that would have turned out? Oh, you do.


What if an employer comes to you and says "hey we are really short in this department, could you help out? anything you can do is helpful even if you've never done it before." That would give anyone confidence to succeed, perhaps with a longer leash knowing you're just helping out where needed, getting more ice time rather than be relegated further down the depth chart. You can tell he's running with it. I think it's great for his development overall as a player. You don't, that's where we disagree. I'd argue that him being a one-trick pony would not be beneficial for him.

Speaking of which, confidence and slotting. Where have I heard that before? Regarding Frost perhaps? So where he's slotted and who he is playing with and the perceived confidence (or lack thereof) he gets from those scenarios is a valid excuse for Frosts "misusage". Why can't it be the same with Cates? Why can't he get the same "intangible confidence" based on where he is or is not being played?

The goal for a team in the Flyers position should be to maximize the development of young players. Not to play them out of position for the good of the team. That the player is making a positive impact at center does not preclude or remove the possibility that playing the player at wing would be better for his long term development. This guarantee or labeling opinion as fact is your invention and your problem. Not mine. You are quickly running out of opportunity with me. You are failing miserably.
- MJL

it's a team sport. if you think Cates needs to skate on the left side of the ice for a season in order to help his development I think you're wrong. Team success, IMO, is better for everyone's development overall. I don't think Cates magically forgot how to play LW

After 73 games Cates doesn't look any more like a playmaker with vision than he did at the start of the season, and his faceoffs are still very poor. I think the main reason Torts moved him to center was just so he could stick it to Hayes, who he's trying to ride out of here on a rail.
- Feanor

I think that's a small part of it but it has a lot to do with his propensity for favoring the defensive side of the puck over modern day NHL hockey. As well as his ego that he is going to change whatever he can, whether it worked in the past or not. He is going to put his stamp on things. That's not out of place for any coach but he takes it to an extreme.

Scoring rate at 5 on 5.

Cates playing wing in 20/21 2.51 P/60

Cates playing center in 21/22 1.43 P/60

Scoring rate along with ice time and usage has been explained numerous times.

I'll be glad to admit that I'm wrong when you prove that I am.

Apparently now you have changed your position from it being unprovable, to now being provable.

You have the opinion that being versatile and being able to play more than one position is more valuable than a player maximizing his potential at one position. Which is my opinion.
- MJL

do you really expect his scoring rate to be as high matching up against the other teams top line? what were his offensive vs defensive zone starting percentages? what was the shooting percentages?

comparing a 16 game sample size vs a full season is foolish imo.

it's a team sport. if you think Cates needs to skate on the left side of the ice for a season in order to help his development I think you're wrong. Team success, IMO, is better for everyone's development overall. I don't think Cates magically forgot how to play LW
- black_francis

You can't tell me why I'm wrong. Team success is not better for everyone's development overall. For example. Most young talented players just need an opportunity and ice time to succeed. Owen Tippett couldn't get that last season playing on Florida due to they were a cup contender and had a stacked team. They played the best players for team success. That situation was definitely not good for Owen Tippett's personal development as a player.