You're incorrect. Couturier while being used as a 3C was scoring at a 2nd line level at ES.
- MJL

coots did not score over 39 points until his 7th year in the league. he went from 34 points in 66 games o 76 points (17-18) in 82 games played. he also had the benefit of playing with G on the pp and on his wing.

On the flip side, imagine how playing with a kid learning on the job might have affected Farabee's recover/development this year.

It's generally better to mix vets and kids so the kids don't all end up dragging each other underwater.
- Tomahawk

Watching Farabee play, and struggle, that was on him. Nothing really to do with linemates

I generally agree with you. However, the Flyers have far from a complete roster. Playing certain players out of position was a given with this team. You would have done it different than Torts. I get that. Doesn't mean he handled it incorrectly.

What if Cates becomes the longterm solution at 3rd line center based from the experience he gained this year? Isn't that better for the Flyers longterm?
- mickel25

Why was it a given? There was always an option with Hayes. In terms of what is best for player development. He did handle it incorrectly in my opinion.

In my view Cates has a higher potential as a player on wing than he does at center. We saw how he could score at a much higher rate playing on the wing where he can better take use his strengths offensively. While also playing the same strong game away from the puck. Do we want the player to fill a perceived need or do we want to player to reach his full potential as a player?

Why was it a given? There was always an option with Hayes. In terms of what is best for player development. He did handle it incorrectly in my opinion.

In my view Cates has a higher potential as a player on wing than he does at center. We saw how he could score at a much higher rate playing on the wing where he can better take use his strengths offensively. While also playing the same strong game away from the puck. Do we want the player to fill a perceived need or do we want to player to reach his full potential as a player?
- MJL

I also think he is best at wing longterm. Doesn't mean he can't develop into a center.

We will see.

Why was it a given? There was always an option with Hayes. In terms of what is best for player development. He did handle it incorrectly in my opinion.

In my view Cates has a higher potential as a player on wing than he does at center. We saw how he could score at a much higher rate playing on the wing where he can better take use his strengths offensively. While also playing the same strong game away from the puck. Do we want the player to fill a perceived need or do we want to player to reach his full potential as a player?
- MJL

Tippett TK Foerester Atkinson possibly Cutter . Very crowded on wing, very weak center depth. Clearly watching what he can do in a checking role this year, his ceiling to the team and himself is at center.

And If Tippett could finish regularly he’d be ovechkin. Save the ifs please
- ClaudeFather

Think about what you just said. You obviously didn't before posting. I posted if his wingers finished at the NHL average. Is finishing at the level of Ovechkin the NHL average or above it. Save the low level non-thinking please.

Watching Farabee play, and struggle, that was on him. Nothing really to do with linemates
- ClaudeFather

With Cates in the middle TK and Farabee became the main puck transporters and playmakers on that line. Not exactly an ideal fit for Farabee's skillset.

Bill made the post a a few weeks ago that if Frost's wingers had finished at the NHL average. Frost would have about 8-10 more assists than he has now. He could also improve on his own finishing.
- MJL

actually that is the only part I am worried about, his finishing. I think he will get the right wingers and the numbers will average out on assists.

Watching Farabee play, and struggle, that was on him. Nothing really to do with linemates
- ClaudeFather

Playing with a better puck distributor would've helped some but it's been clear to me that Farabee just needed time to get stronger. He's been a different player lately.

And If Tippett could finish regularly he’d be ovechkin. Save the ifs please
- ClaudeFather

while you can't count the points, when you go to resign a player or build your roster, leaders will need that information, it is only one season but valuable to know as you choose to resign Frost. I am sure Frost group will bring it up and I am sure the Flyers will acknowledge

Tippett TK Foerester Atkinson possibly Cutter . Very crowded on wing, very weak center depth. Clearly watching what he can do in a checking role this year, his ceiling to the team and himself is at center.
- ClaudeFather

I thought cutter was lw/c? But agree. Really is looking ok at least. Who knows if Allison will be back and brink with an outside chance next year. Farabee can play rw and if lemieux stays he vmcan as well. Center and lw not so good.

I also think he is best at wing longterm. Doesn't mean he can't develop into a center.

We will see.
- mickel25

He's already developed into a center. If he has trouble scoring playing 1st line minutes with better linemates at center. What level will he score at playing 3rd line center? Do we want an archaic checking line? I don't. There are two types of scoring centers. Puck distributors who rack up assists and goal scorers like Austin Mathews. Some are both. Who have a killer shot and jump into holes and beat goaltenders with snipes. Is that Cates? Do you think he will develop into that? We've seen how good even in a small sample as a new player how he can get on the puck as F1 on the forecheck and get to the net. For goalmouth and smash plays at the net. That's his offensive skills.

Tippett TK Foerester Atkinson possibly Cutter . Very crowded on wing, very weak center depth. Clearly watching what he can do in a checking role this year, his ceiling to the team and himself is at center.
- ClaudeFather

I think having lines where 2 players have center experience is a good thing. If you move Cates back with Frost and Tip, good. Same thing with Cutter coming in, sure try him at C, but put him with another guy he can play center. The flexibility of being a rebuilding team try shxt

Tippett TK Foerester Atkinson possibly Cutter . Very crowded on wing, very weak center depth. Clearly watching what he can do in a checking role this year, his ceiling to the team and himself is at center.
- ClaudeFather

You don't develop a young player based on need. You develop a player to his strengths. The Flyers want Gauthier to play center. Do you really think they should factor in Atkinson in how a young player is developed? Checking roles are archaic.

Funny, I think with how the team is playing, Cutter is going back to school, no respect

bare minimum, get at least 6 picks in the first two rounds in the next 2 drafts, make all your 3rd picks, unless used to move up. That would be a good start, baby steps
- wcorvette

We need the one thing that we don't currently have though... draft picks.
We would have to move players like TK and proxy to get anything worth while and moves like that will set us back even further, imo.
That's why I don't see the flyers changing course on a rebuild. If we want good picks then our good players have got to go. I don't see any other way to expedite the rebuild.
One step back could be two steps forward ...or something like that

Foerster obviously not only has a hell of a shot but really picks his shot, his drag and shot last night showed that. While Tip has a great shot, can pick, it appears he has less control on where, not a bad thing.

for fun

Frost has picked up points just from having Foerster on his line and converting, if Foerster was on Frost line for most of the season, how many more assists would Frost have? or not?
- wcorvette

Foerester has looked good. Really good, actually. And my Lord what a hell of a shot! 😳

He's already developed into a center. If he has trouble scoring playing 1st line minutes with better linemates at center. What level will he score at playing 3rd line center? Do we want an archaic checking line? I don't. There are two types of scoring centers. Puck distributors who rack up assists and goal scorers like Austin Mathews. Who have a killer shot and jump into holes and beat goaltenders with snipes. Is that Cates? Do you think he will develop into that? We've seen how good even in a small sample as a new player how he can get on the puck as F1 on the forecheck and get to the net. For goalmouth and smash plays at the net. That's his offensive skills.
- MJL

He would be playing against lesser competition in that scenario. Currently he would probably play with Laughton and Foerster if everyone is healthy. I believe he would produce at a rate better than a 3rd line center in that scenario. Do you see him as a second line winger?

The young players should be playing in the best spot and best position for their development. That's the point. Tortorella has not done that with Cates. The best thing for the Flyers future was playing Hayes at center and Cates on the wing.
- MJL

That would have definitely helped our draft odds if this was the case

He would be playing against lesser competition in that scenario. Currently he would probably play with Laughton and Foerster if everyone is healthy. I believe he would produce at a rate better than a 3rd line center in that scenario. Do you see him as a second line winger?
- mickel25

I don't think he would because he would be playing less minutes with lesser players. I think he has a higher upside as a winger than as a center. I don't think he will be able to score at a high enough level as a top 9C. I think he could be a 20 goal winger who plays a strong game away from the puck. Think Jere Lehtinen light.

We need the one thing that we don't currently have though... draft picks.
We would have to move players like TK and proxy to get anything worth while and moves like that will set us back even further, imo.
That's why I don't see the flyers changing course on a rebuild. If we want good picks then our good players have got to go. I don't see any other way to expedite the rebuild.
One step back could be two steps forward ...or something like that
- Bob Habib

I think they will move Provy, could add a depth player or prospect and try to add picks. They can back fill Provy, not as good, but assume other will take a step forward, Coots back etc. they could rationalize they are getting better and getting picks

You don't develop a young player based on need. You develop a player to his strengths. The Flyers want Gauthier to play center. Do you really think they should factor in Atkinson in how a young player is developed? Checking roles are archaic.
- MJL

it's a road less traveled, but did you whine about G moving from rw to center? he was almost exclusively a rw in junior hockey. just curious.

I think they will move Provy, could add a depth player or prospect and try to add picks. They can back fill Provy, not as good, but assume other will take a step forward, Coots back etc
- wcorvette

Elliotte Friedman just said that the team and the player are ready to move on from each other.

He would be playing against lesser competition in that scenario. Currently he would probably play with Laughton and Foerster if everyone is healthy. I believe he would produce at a rate better than a 3rd line center in that scenario. Do you see him as a second line winger?
- mickel25

agree or consistent with this season. as he is going against others top line.

Elliotte Friedman just said that the team and the player are ready to move on from each other.
- Tomahawk

provie and hayes it is then. with his contract and year sanhiem would be harder to move imo.