Hayes, for all his warts, has always clearly been the team's only option at 1C.
- Tomahawk

he's had a weird year. seems like he hasn't cared for a bit, but somehow having a career year. watching more kids, his skating is standing out in a poor way imo.

We suck. The only option is to rebuild.
With the advisors out of the picture and the feltch not having his hand in things I trust FB to rebuild. Torts knows that we need to rebuild.
I don't foresee the flyers abandoning the rebuild anytime soon. They are listening to the fans and the fans want a rebuild.
If they abandon the rebuild it would not end well.
If coots wants out then he can ask for a trade, and I won't hold it against him. As long as he returns to health he should have value if they take that route
- Bob Habib

Does this organization deserve that leap of faith or benefit of the doubt? I don't think they do. I see the good solid young players they have. If Couturier comes back strong and Atkinson comes back and doesn't have to be a top player. If they start sniffing the playoffs, they won't escalate? They'll stick to the plan? I'll believe it when I see it.

thanks. you've given me this site before and i do go there. there's another one you use but have no clue what it is.
- Peter Richards

Maybe you're talking about this?
https://public.tableau.co...2023/WinsAboveReplacement

so guessing you'd rather have frost as the 1c. imo he would've been outmatched and caved defensively.. the team wasn't in a good position without coots as the 1c. hayes can't handle it either. not a frost hater. want more from him. just wish we could combine the two. i would like to see cates on coots wing with tk
- Peter Richards

Frost needs to put on weight otherwise he will always get caved as a 2c or higher. His defense also isn't what you want to see.
I'm a big frost supporter but I don't ever see him as a 1C. Cates was the better option, even if it took away from his point production.
We are just in a really bad spot with coots out ans nobody else at all to fill in.
Like you said, Hayes at 1C is a disgusting joke. I can't wait to move on from him. Yet Another feltch blunder.
If the runors are true why would anyone Overpay a player to come to a team that they don't even want to play for?

Does this organization deserve that leap of faith or benefit of the doubt? I don't think they do. I see the good solid young players they have. If Couturier comes back strong and Atkinson comes back and doesn't have to be a top player. If they start sniffing the playoffs, they won't escalate? They'll stick to the plan? I'll believe it when I see it.
- MJL

If... and a big IF... all of thr young guys hit their ceiling then that changes things but let's be honest... do you see that happening?
If, again, IF, that happens then of course its in the discussion but I don't wwnt to be a bubble team. I hope DB is smart enough to stuck to the plan and reach contender status as opposed to first round bubble team
I have faith in DB. The fact that the old guard didn't want him in office means he isn't listening to them, which is a huge positive

…

Coots lagged offensively too for years….


- SMS4016

You're incorrect. Couturier while being used as a 3C was scoring at a 2nd line level at ES.

Foerster obviously not only has a hell of a shot but really picks his shot, his drag and shot last night showed that. While Tip has a great shot, can pick, it appears he has less control on where, not a bad thing.

for fun

Frost has picked up points just from having Foerster on his line and converting, if Foerster was on Frost line for most of the season, how many more assists would Frost have? or not?

Maybe you're talking about this?
https://public.tableau.co...2023/WinsAboveReplacement

- Tomahawk

not sure, but will play around to see. thanks

he's had a weird year. seems like he hasn't cared for a bit, but somehow having a career year. watching more kids, his skating is standing out in a poor way imo.
- Peter Richards

Remember how well he was playing at the beginning of the season? Like point per game in Oct and Nov?

Then Torts just buried him to uphold The Standard, which I understand in the long term sense, but it really boned the team in the short term. Also probably wasn't fair to Hayes personally, especially given what he was going thru off the ice. Just all out ruthlessness from Torts.

Cates has clearly been the beneficiary of all that.

Mjl approves this message
- SMS4016

I'm living in your head rent free.

If... and a big IF... all of thr young guys hit their ceiling then that changes things but let's be honest... do you see that happening?
If, again, IF, that happens then of course its in the discussion but I don't wwnt to be a bubble team. I hope DB is smart enough to stuck to the plan and reach contender status as opposed to first round bubble team
I have faith in DB. The fact that the old guard didn't want him in office means he isn't listening to them, which is a huge positive
- Bob Habib

bare minimum, get at least 6 picks in the first two rounds in the next 2 drafts, make all your 3rd picks, unless used to move up. That would be a good start, baby steps

Foerster obviously not only has a hell of a shot but really picks his shot, his drag and shot last night showed that. While Tip has a great shot, can pick, it appears he has less control on where, not a bad thing.

for fun

Frost has picked up points just from having Foerster on his line and converting, if Foerster was on Frost line for most of the season, how many more assists would Frost have? or not?
- wcorvette

he's been rolling well with lemieux as well. he seems to win the board battles and has been keeping up with the play.

I can't see Cates finding a scoring touch. Not ever. But the fact he can shut down the opposition of top lines is impressive. He won't ever out yp the numbers of a 1C and we all know that. Hopefully he eventually gets slotted correctly and can be a shut down 3C in the future..
Either way, his defensive side of the sport can't be ignored. But damn do I wish he had a better shot and better hands
- Bob Habib

He's not a shut down defensive center. Cates can score at a significant level. Just not at center. He doesn't have the puck skills. Nor is he a shooting center. His forte offensively is getting to the net and being strong on the puck on the forecheck as F1. Tortorella has not done the organization any favors by forcing Cates at center.

Remember how well he was playing at the beginning of the season? Like point per game in Oct and Nov?

Then Torts just buried him to uphold The Standard, which I understand in the long term sense, but it really boned the team in the short term. Also probably wasn't fair to Hayes personally, especially given what he was going thru off the ice. Just all out ruthlessness from Torts.

Cates has clearly been the beneficiary of all that.
- Tomahawk

yes, but i thought that was more tk than hayes. was surprised they moved him to wing.

He's not a shut down defensive center. Cates can score at a significant level. Just not at center. He doesn't have the puck skills. Nor is he a shooting center. His forte offensively is getting to the net and being strong on the puck on the forecheck as F1. Tortorella has not done the organization any favors by forcing Cates at center.
- MJL

haven't seen the voting, but they say he had some selke votes

Foerster obviously not only has a hell of a shot but really picks his shot, his drag and shot last night showed that. While Tip has a great shot, can pick, it appears he has less control on where, not a bad thing.

for fun

Frost has picked up points just from having Foerster on his line and converting, if Foerster was on Frost line for most of the season, how many more assists would Frost have? or not?
- wcorvette

Bill made the post a a few weeks ago that if Frost's wingers had finished at the NHL average. Frost would have about 8-10 more assists than he has now. He could also improve on his own finishing.

Foerster obviously not only has a hell of a shot but really picks his shot, his drag and shot last night showed that. While Tip has a great shot, can pick, it appears he has less control on where, not a bad thing.

for fun

Frost has picked up points just from having Foerster on his line and converting, if Foerster was on Frost line for most of the season, how many more assists would Frost have? or not?
- wcorvette

Bill made the post a a few weeks ago that if Frost's wingers had finished at the NHL average. Frost would have about 8-10 more assists than he has now. He could also improve on his own finishing.

Remember how well he was playing at the beginning of the season? Like point per game in Oct and Nov?

Then Torts just buried him to uphold The Standard, which I understand in the long term sense, but it really boned the team in the short term. Also probably wasn't fair to Hayes personally, especially given what he was going thru off the ice. Just all out ruthlessness from Torts.

Cates has clearly been the beneficiary of all that.
- Tomahawk

Hayes is not a good center. He should be playing wing. The Flyers should be playing the young players ahead of him as part of the rebuild (or whatever we are calling it). I do not think Torts was ruthless. The steps he took with Hayes were for the betterment of this team longterm.

I am fine with it. Hayes is a good dude and it sucks what happened to his brother. But he is also paid millions of dollars a year to play hockey. Hopefully he gets traded in the offseason and can be treated less ruthlessly.

haven't seen the voting, but they say he had some selke votes
- Peter Richards

Local writers casting homer votes. Happens every year.

Hayes is not a good center. He should be playing wing. The Flyers should be playing the young players ahead of him as part of the rebuild (or whatever we are calling it). I do not think Torts was ruthless. The steps he took with Hayes were for the betterment of this team longterm.

I am fine with it. Hayes is a good dude and it sucks what happened to his brother. But he is also paid millions of dollars a year to play hockey. Hopefully he gets traded in the offseason and can be treated less ruthlessly.
- mickel25

The young players should be playing in the best spot and best position for their development. That's the point. Tortorella has not done that with Cates. The best thing for the Flyers future was playing Hayes at center and Cates on the wing.

If... and a big IF... all of thr young guys hit their ceiling then that changes things but let's be honest... do you see that happening?
If, again, IF, that happens then of course its in the discussion but I don't wwnt to be a bubble team. I hope DB is smart enough to stuck to the plan and reach contender status as opposed to first round bubble team
I have faith in DB. The fact that the old guard didn't want him in office means he isn't listening to them, which is a huge positive
- Bob Habib

if cam is playing next year. i am fine with him being the 4th line rw. barring trades we may see, tk, tip, tyson as the top three rw's

The young players should be playing in the best spot and best position for their development. That's the point. Tortorella has not done that with Cates. The best thing for the Flyers future was playing Hayes at center and Cates on the wing.
- MJL

I generally agree with you. However, the Flyers have far from a complete roster. Playing certain players out of position was a given with this team. You would have done it different than Torts. I get that. Doesn't mean he handled it incorrectly.

What if Cates becomes the longterm solution at 3rd line center based from the experience he gained this year? Isn't that better for the Flyers longterm?

What if Cates becomes the longterm solution at 3rd line center based from the experience he gained this year? Isn't that better for the Flyers longterm?
- mickel25

On the flip side, imagine how playing with a kid learning on the job might have affected Farabee's recover/development this year.

It's generally better to mix vets and kids so the kids don't all end up dragging each other underwater.

Bill made the post a a few weeks ago that if Frost's wingers had finished at the NHL average. Frost would have about 8-10 more assists than he has now. He could also improve on his own finishing.
- MJL

And If Tippett could finish regularly he’d be ovechkin. Save the ifs please

On the flip side, imagine how playing with a kid learning on the job might have affected Farabee's recover/development this year.
- Tomahawk

Definitely could have affected him. He also may just have been struggling with his recovery from the surgery. The possibilities are endless.