This team is a dumpster fire. They certainly have less talent than last year. They don't have a first or second line center for starters and Atkinson hasn't played a shift this year. They are way worse roster wise, but of course that would mean that you have to give Torts some credit which you will absolutely refuse to do at all cost.

- Phillywhiteout

Couturier missed most of the season last year. Giroux is missing. They have young players who have gotten better from last year such as Cates, Frost and Tippet. They are not way worse. I have given Tortorella credit numerous times. He is not the miracle worker you and others think he is. The team has improved minimally. All that he has done is dumbed down the way they play. Tomahawk eloquently described it earlier today in a post echoing what I have said all season.

At this stage, the only two players I would not consider trading is Tippett and TK. Just my opinion.

Also, not a chance the Caps move Wilson. He’s practically a rock star in the DC metro area.

Basically just the best player on the team lol what? Do you see the crap you post? Braun had also take a considerable step back, TDA is terrible at defense. Coots, although a shell of himself also played 30 games, Farabee is coming off neck surgery this year. The team is considerably worse, are those facts for you Cliff?
- ClaudeFather

I mentioned Giroux missing in my post. Reading comprehension issue? Couturier was not effective last year. TDA has added offensive ability. Last years team had Keith Yandle playing defense with his -47 LOL. Carter Hart only played 44 games. Both team had injury and talent issues. They're not considerably worse.

Name calling is not going to help you.

I mentioned Giroux missing in my post. Reading comprehension issue? Couturier was not effective last year. TDA has added offensive ability. Last years team had Keith Yandle playing defense with his -47 LOL. Carter Hart only played 44 games. Both team had injury and talent issues. They're not considerably worse.

Name calling is not going to help you.
- MJL

This years team has performed better, face the facts

This years team has performed better, face the facts
- ClaudeFather

You don't have a clue what I'm even saying. Too frothed up and unable to make an intelligent argument. So when I posted early in this conversation that the Flyers rank higher in the conference this year than last, you somehow think that I'm saying that the team hasn't improved. It's hysterical but keep coming with the rhetoric and name calling.

What's missing from last year? Basically just Giroux. They have improved young talent. Skating ability does not prevent them from playing more of a puck pressure system.
- MJL

coots and cam not playing??? as you mentioned giroux as well. three top six players.

also when applying pressure...absolutely speed matters

Torts himself has said that the team never had a problem w/ compete and attitude in the room since day 1. And the roster is mostly holdovers, so do the math.

The main difference is that the system they play is simplified to the point where they have no choice but to be on the same page. AV's situational puck pressure and man on man required a lot of read and react. Torts' sit back system is more about basic coverages and collapsing.

The problem is that a sit back system can only take you so far in 2023. Couple it with the relative lack of talent and you get what we're watching now. Good teams like Seattle, Toronto, Boston etc who have their poop together just dismantle the Flyers' defensive posture easily.
- Tomahawk

I agree, so the plan should play a different, more read and react, man v man style? They just don't have the talent. I guess you could make the case that at least the learn a modern NHL style. I tend to agree with Torts, get as much as you can out of what you have, try to build players confidence and buy-in. Now, if they add talent and still sit back, just bad. There is not a lot choices right now and that makes it hard to say one would be better over the other. Right now we are seeing what it is like wo TK, we are seeing teams playing better after the All-Star break, hard work can keep you in games and seasons, but as legs get tired in the 3rd period or at the end of the season, better team will continue to expose the Flyers. I say the season is going fairly well, some surprise success relative to this group and now pushing for the best pick. I am glad Coots and Cam were out all season.

They need a good TDL, draft and FA to see if they can get this on track, unfortunately we have CF, who made a few good moves but once challenges arose, he made more panicked moves.

There is a middle ground the argument being made this morning. I think fans automatically assumed this team would be last place this season and understandably disappointed that they may not contend for Connor Bedard.

The middle ground is. We’ve never seen a full season of Cam York, Morgan Frost, Owen Tippett and Noah Cates. So by not trusting the unknown, we assumed we’re bad. Travis Konency has been forced to raise his game. Scott Laughton has been forced to raise his game. Carter Hart has been forced to raise his game.

Torts might not be a great coach but he is a good coach. The thing is with John Tortorella, he gets to do what he’s been saying beyond this season. He gets to help build this team from the ground up moving forward. So it never really mattered what he did this season.

I agree, so the plan should play a different, more read and react, man v man style? They just don't have the talent. I guess you could make the case that at least the learn a modern NHL style. I tend to agree with Torts, get as much as you can out of what you have, try to build players confidence and buy-in. Now, if they add talent and still sit back, just bad. There is not a lot choices right now and that makes it hard to say one would be better over the other. Right now we are seeing what it is like wo TK, we are seeing teams playing better after the All-Star break, hard work can keep you in games and seasons, but as legs get tired in the 3rd period or at the end of the season, better team will continue to expose the Flyers. I say the season is going fairly well, some surprise success relative to this group and now pushing for the best pick. I am glad Coots and Cam were out all season.

They need a good TDL, draft and FA to see if they can get this on track, unfortunately we have CF, who made a few good moves but once challenges arose, he made more panicked moves.
- wcorvette

There are numerous top teams who use a low zone collapse as part of their defensive zone coverage scheme but they play it situationally depending on where the puck is. There aren't many teams who sit back passively and let team easily move the puck around to find passing and shooting lanes. There aren't many teams who use archaic side breakouts that don't generate any team speed and make it ridiculously easy to game plan a foecheck against.
I don't buy that they don't have the talent to play a more aggressive and modern defensive scheme. Yea, it may be the best method now to squeak out a few more wins but it is not prepping the team for the future. What good is getting the best out of what you have if it gets the Flyers to where they are? I understand your points but I don't agree.

There are numerous top teams who use a low zone collapse as part of their defensive zone coverage scheme but they play it situationally depending on where the puck is. There aren't many teams who sit back passively and let team easily move the puck around to find passing and shooting lanes. There aren't many teams who use archaic side breakouts that don't generate any team speed and make it ridiculously easy to game plan a foecheck against.
I don't buy that they don't have the talent to play a more aggressive and modern defensive scheme. Yea, it may be the best method now to squeak out a few more wins but it is not prepping the team for the future. What good is getting the best out of what you have if it gets the Flyers to where they are? I understand your points but I don't agree.
- MJL

well thats the problem then

There are numerous top teams who use a low zone collapse as part of their defensive zone coverage scheme but they play it situationally depending on where the puck is. There aren't many teams who sit back passively and let team easily move the puck around to find passing and shooting lanes. There aren't many teams who use archaic side breakouts that don't generate any team speed and make it ridiculously easy to game plan a foecheck against.
I don't buy that they don't have the talent to play a more aggressive and modern defensive scheme. Yea, it may be the best method now to squeak out a few more wins but it is not prepping the team for the future. What good is getting the best out of what you have if it gets the Flyers to where they are? I understand your points but I don't agree.
- MJL

Not sure we disagree completely, I just get why he would choose one over the other. What we have seen over the last few games is a complete passive approach, I hate that and would like a more aggressive style. I am jot sure Torts is asking for what we have seen recently, yes collapse but we have seen the group be much more aggressive than this last stretch. I think losing and losing tk, the player own some of it, choosing to sit back. When you have brown and ND, really no choice, Brown should not be in the nhl, let alone used as the Flyers use him. I get ND but he needs a team where he is the only one like him. Then you have everyone playing out of place, like Laughton, he was hanging in there but you can see it is catching up to him playing the minutes and matchups. This leads to no transition, breakouts and effects team play.

Really, if you are them, you want bend don’t break hockey, they would look foolish playing man v man or real press hockey. The challenge is it has went way to far to the bend don’t break for this group

Not sure we disagree completely, I just get why he would choose one over the other. What we have seen over the last few games is a complete passive approach, I hate that and would like a more aggressive style. I am jot sure Torts is asking for what we have seen recently, yes collapse but we have seen the group be much more aggressive than this last stretch. I think losing and losing tk, the player own some of it, choosing to sit back. When you have brown and ND, really no choice, Brown should not be in the nhl, let alone used as the Flyers use him. I get ND but he needs a team where he is the only one like him. Then you have everyone playing out of place, like Laughton, he was hanging in there but you can see it is catching up to him playing the minutes and matchups. This leads to no transition, breakouts and effects team play.

Really, if you are them, you want bend don’t break hockey, they would look foolish playing man v man or real press hockey. The challenge is it has went way to far to the bend don’t break for this group
- wcorvette

This is not Tortorella choosing one over the other for this team. This is how Tortorella plays. Having ND and Brown has nothing to do with having a choice. I don't see the systems choice as having to do with the roster. The Flyers have had transition issues all season so the minutes and matchups played and the cumulative effect are also not a factor.
They look foolish now! They give up the 4th most shot attempts in the league. 7th worst in xGF%. 10th worst in scoring chances. 9th worst in HDCA. The passive conservative defensive system is not effective. Then you look at the lack of scoring chances generated.
You also keep mentioning man to man or real press hockey. The best defensive team in the league, Boston, does not play a man to man coverage.