Going to electronics and video almost exclusively has really set tennis back hasn't it? Do you honestly believe that electronics and video to call balls and strikes would not be an improvement over some spherically gifted dude with a giant chip shoulder in baseball?
- winsix

Balls and strikes and in and out on a tennis court are clear and obvious calls. A guy in a booth will catch the Sandin penalty when someone else’s stick catches the player but that could be resolved simply by allowing refs on the ice to ask for a replay. It will do nothing for “judgement calls” when Matthews is being cross checked in the back or when whistles get put away during the playoffs. It’ll just be someone else that gets everybody whining about how the league conspires against the Leafs.

I have to admit though it would be kind of fun to watch a ref skate around waiting for someone to buzz him and tell him to go to centre ice and call a penalty.

NHL can start by eliminating game management by refs and their make up calls. I feel better if the ref just admits a mistake instead of trying to correct it. What if one team scores on the mistake and the other didn't? They still (frank)ed up the game.
- Aaron_85

Agreed. Should never have been allowed to come into the game in the first place

Going to agree here. I do think if you can review a double minir high stick then just review high sticking and get the damn call right. System is fine but there are other avenues to tweak things. For starters make the refs more accountable post game. Other refs take questions so finally start doing it. NHL has been asked for such for a while. Put the names back on the striped jerseys. Stop hiding them. Reputation is a great motivator. And mandate more training through offseason and get the standards in line.

Id start there. Betting it would improve.
- Roadrunner75

Agree with making refs more accountable - but reputation? Check the internet and find a rating on current NHL refs. You won't find one. You will find one in baseball, where Angel Hernandez followed by CB Bucknor are by consensus the worst umpires in baseball - yet they still have jobs for some reason. Offsides and goals with the use of electronics - similar to what tennis uses - will make sure you can tell if the puck crosses the goal line - whether along the ice or in the air. The goalie won't be able to block the camera view - it won't matter. Same for offside - this part is a no brainer. It gets much more complex after that but can be managed. It would remove the possibility of bias and reduce incompetence.

Balls and strikes and in and out on a tennis court are clear and obvious calls. A guy in a booth will catch the Sandin penalty when someone else’s stick catches the player but that could be resolved simply by allowing refs on the ice to ask for a replay. It will do nothing for “judgement calls” when Matthews is being cross checked in the back or when whistles get put away during the playoffs. It’ll just be someone else that gets everybody whining about how the league conspires against the Leafs.

I have to admit though it would be kind of fun to watch a ref skate around waiting for someone to buzz him and tell him to go to centre ice and call a penalty.
- Canada Cup

This is the whole point - if it is a cross-check - it is not a judgement call. It's a (frank)ing penalty. Call them all - players will adapt if they know it will be called. There's no getting even / make up penalties, no putting the whistle away. Just hockey by the actual rules.

Agree with making refs more accountable - but reputation? Check the internet and find a rating on current NHL refs. You won't find one. You will find one in baseball, where Angel Hernandez followed by CB Bucknor are by consensus the worst umpires in baseball - yet they still have jobs for some reason. Offsides and goals with the use of electronics - similar to what tennis uses - will make sure you can tell if the puck crosses the goal line - whether along the ice or in the air. The goalie won't be able to block the camera view - it won't matter. Same for offside - this part is a no brainer. It gets much more complex after that but can be managed. It would remove the possibility of bias and reduce incompetence.
- winsix

1. I agree with you on technology. I would say I am not against more technology in the game aslong as it doesn't slow it down too much and if it's incredibly accurate technology. Maybe the sensors don't work well enough for hockey or something but I mean, leagues should be looking into this and we would hear about it in the minor systems if they were.

2. Let's not discuss baseball ump reputations. MLB was sued by Angel Hernandez for racial discrimination because he wasn't assigned some important games and MLB won the case cause they proved he sucked and didn't deserve them. It's crazy to me these people have no accountability in their jobs while pulling in huge dollars. Everyone else in the world fears doing a poor job and being let go, why not them?

1. I agree with you on technology. I would say I am not against more technology in the game aslong as it doesn't slow it down too much and if it's incredibly accurate technology. Maybe the sensors don't work well enough for hockey or something but I mean, leagues should be looking into this and we would hear about it in the minor systems if they were.

2. Let's not discuss baseball ump reputations. MLB was sued by Angel Hernandez for racial discrimination because he wasn't assigned some important games and MLB won the case cause they proved he sucked and didn't deserve them. It's crazy to me these people have no accountability in their jobs while pulling in huge dollars. Everyone else in the world fears doing a poor job and being let go, why not them?
- Aaron_85

This is an excellent point. Not being able to umpire key games is a far cry from holding Hernandez accountable. He should have been fired long ago. Back in 2021 Tim Peel was fired after this incident.

The NHL fired referee Tim Peel on Wednesday after a hot mic captured him boasting about whistling a penalty because he "wanted to."

The league's action came less than 24 hours after Peel officiated the Nashville Predators' 2-0 victory over the visiting Detroit Red Wings at Bridgestone Arena

That's not accountability either - he admitted to cheating while being miked.

This is an excellent point. Not being able to umpire key games is a far cry from holding Hernandez accountable. He should have been fired long ago. Back in 2021 Tim Peel was fired after this incident.



That's not accountability either - he admitted to cheating while being miked.
- winsix

Agreed. Tim Peel was close to retirement, no? So they kind of just let it go away and did the bare minimum. We all knew of game management by the refs but up until Peel, fans didn't have real proof. Now we do and to the leagues credit. We just all let it slide.

On an off topic. The game tonight. Washington, like Ottawa, was running our guys again. No pushback. Why do they continue to play Simmonds, when he can't skate, score, hit or fight? Simmonds was toast 2 years ago, and I don't know why Dubas gave him a 2 year contract? He didn't earn it then and has only gotten worse.

Listening to the Convo, this morning, I couldn't agree more with the guys. Leafs need some defensive upgrades and some toughness on the bottom 6. When I see guys like Hedman and McAvoy, I don't see us measure up. If Chychrun is available, there needs to be an upgrade on L2. Moving Sandin in such a deal is the only way we get a top end defenseman that is young and at a decent cap hit. You have to give something to get something. Of course it'll probably cost us Robertson and another prospect or high draft choice. Pay the damned price Dubas and stop looking in the bargain basement. Use your chips while we have Matthews, Marner and Nylander under contract at the peak of their careers. It might be helpful to ask about Lawson Crouse and see if you can up the package from Arizona.

Also, everyone is talking about getting Ryan O'Reilly. It would be nice, but at what price for a rental? Maybe looking at Florida and Sam Bennett is a better solution. If these two deals could be made, with prospects, picks and young talent, it may prove to be a winning hand when the playoffs begin. It's up to Dubas, if he just wants the same result. You know what they say about insanity.....doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. We currently don't match up with Tampa and Boston......so are we just going to let the Salary Cap tick on Matthews, Marner and Nylander and find ourselves put in a position to move one of these key pieces without giving them the best chance to succeed?

One last observation.......if there are any suitors for Matt Murray, take the out and move him sooner than later. He's injury prone and I believe the money is better spent on getting Samsonov signed long term. He's starting to look like the Goalie that Washington thought they were getting when they drafted him. He's young and fits the age category of our current core.

On an off topic. The game tonight. Washington, like Ottawa, was running our guys again. No pushback. Why do they continue to play Simmonds, when he can't skate, score, hit or fight? Simmonds was toast 2 years ago, and I don't know why Dubas gave him a 2 year contract? He didn't earn it then and has only gotten worse.

Listening to the Convo, this morning, I couldn't agree more with the guys. Leafs need some defensive upgrades and some toughness on the bottom 6. When I see guys like Hedman and McAvoy, I don't see us measure up. If Chychrun is available, there needs to be an upgrade on L2. Moving Sandin in such a deal is the only way we get a top end defenseman that is young and at a decent cap hit. You have to give something to get something. Of course it'll probably cost us Robertson and another prospect or high draft choice. Pay the damned price Dubas and stop looking in the bargain basement. Use your chips while we have Matthews, Marner and Nylander under contract at the peak of their careers. It might be helpful to ask about Lawson Crouse and see if you can up the package from Arizona.

Also, everyone is talking about getting Ryan O'Reilly. It would be nice, but at what price for a rental? Maybe looking at Florida and Sam Bennett is a better solution. If these two deals could be made, with prospects, picks and young talent, it may prove to be a winning hand when the playoffs begin. It's up to Dubas, if he just wants the same result. You know what they say about insanity.....doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. We currently don't match up with Tampa and Boston......so are we just going to let the Salary Cap tick on Matthews, Marner and Nylander and find ourselves put in a position to move one of these key pieces without giving them the best chance to succeed?

One last observation.......if there are any suitors for Matt Murray, take the out and move him sooner than later. He's injury prone and I believe the money is better spent on getting Samsonov signed long term. He's starting to look like the Goalie that Washington thought they were getting when they drafted him. He's young and fits the age category of our current core.
- PrinceLH

Everything else has been hashed and rehashed so I have no reason to discuss it.

I will discuss Murray though. I am not against him being moved, in the off season. Right now, when not injured he's played some quality hockey. I don't see what/who you trade him for to then bring in a quality back up.

Of course it’s an opinion. What a peculiar comment. But the idea of going to a video system and just using refs to announce penalties and linesmen to drop the puck seems bizarro world and won’t make people happy. There will still be penalties called or not called that people hate.
- Canada Cup

Yes peculiar - sure that’s what it was. I guess you have no perception of how you come across on here, or you don’t care.

Saying things like an opinion or idea other than the one you have landed on is someone stating things that seem “bizarro world” & won’t make people happy is just rude and insulting.

Almost as rude as just trying to invalidate someone’s opinion by saying “the system is fine” vs actually having a polite debate about it.

At least you are consistent in your approach I’ll give you that.

Have a nice evening.

Going to agree here. I do think if you can review a double minir high stick then just review high sticking and get the damn call right. System is fine but there are other avenues to tweak things. For starters make the refs more accountable post game. Other refs take questions so finally start doing it. NHL has been asked for such for a while. Put the names back on the striped jerseys. Stop hiding them. Reputation is a great motivator. And mandate more training through offseason and get the standards in line.

Id start there. Betting it would improve.
- Roadrunner75

Some excellent suggestions in here for sure. Accountability of officials is lacking immensely!

The Leafs make no sense.

also the Broons losing 3 in a row
lets make it 4

The Leafs make no sense.

also the Broons losing 3 in a row
lets make it 4
- senstroll

Bruins nutted prematurely this season.

The Leafs make no sense.

also the Broons losing 3 in a row
lets make it 4
- senstroll

Ya I was just looking at the schedule and leafs play once in like the next 9 days.

Good for Matthews and I don’t mind as I’m heading on vacation for a week.

Let’s go Kyle

Time to trade for Motte

This is the whole point - if it is a cross-check - it is not a judgement call. It's a (frank)ing penalty. Call them all - players will adapt if they know it will be called. There's no getting even / make up penalties, no putting the whistle away. Just hockey by the actual rules.
- winsix

Calling a cross check is not like calling a ball or strike in baseball. A pitch is objectively in or out of the strike zone and a machine can theoretically make that determination. Hooks, cross checks, roughing calls require someone to look at the play and assess it in terms of the rules. It’s the same thing that happens in a court of law. That’s why judges make judgement calls.

The issues of make up calls and putting the whistles away and playoff hockey reffing are all different. That’s a hockey culture thing and probably should change. I don’t know how you do that since it seems to be pretty ingrained.

Yes peculiar - sure that’s what it was. I guess you have no perception of how you come across on here, or you don’t care.

Saying things like an opinion or idea other than the one you have landed on is someone stating things that seem “bizarro world” & won’t make people happy is just rude and insulting.

Almost as rude as just trying to invalidate someone’s opinion by saying “the system is fine” vs actually having a polite debate about it.

At least you are consistent in your approach I’ll give you that.

Have a nice evening.
- Cush29

This is a hockey opinion site. Winsix and I have different opinions on lots of things and are able to debate them as we have on this issue. It was a pretty innocuous post even if I didn’t add IMHO when I actually stated my opinion. Here’s the other thing Cush, sometimes it’s ok just to state a broad opinion without getting into a full debate at that time. But, like I said it’s a hockey opinion site and there always room for pissy interventions.

Let’s go Kyle

Time to trade for Motte
- mr.sir

why? wuts up with that guy

Calling a cross check is not like calling a ball or strike in baseball. A pitch is objectively in or out of the strike zone and a machine can theoretically make that determination. Hooks, cross checks, roughing calls require someone to look at the play and assess it in terms of the rules. It’s the same thing that happens in a court of law. That’s why judges make judgement calls.

The issues of make up calls and putting the whistles away and playoff hockey reffing are all different. That’s a hockey culture thing and probably should change. I don’t know how you do that since it seems to be pretty ingrained.
- Canada Cup

At the end of the day, hockey is so fluid that you aren't going to fix infractions that went uncalled, because the play will have moved on and I am not in favour of setting the clock back - and I'm sure the NHL is, likewise, not interested in extending games any longer. Ref accountability, extended responsibility to linesmen, and removal of game management would improve a significant number of those "missed" calls.

When you witness some of the nuanced, but proper, penalties that NHL refs call, you realise that they see a lot more than you often think they do, which means they let a lot go deliberately. And some things, if the ref is mic'ed up, you hear - "watch the cross check!", "That's enough," blah, blah, blah - they know it's a high octane, emotional, and testosterone fueled nutfest out there half the time, and depending on the ref, the game, the circumstances, and so on they'll let the boys play - and I'll say that those have often made for some of the best games I've seen. It's why I believe that the "game management" mandate is clearly there, despite denials by the NHL - because I know the refs are all actually better than this.

That said, some penalties which are less subjective and have an automatic consequence - puck over glass, high stick, hand in crease, thrown stick are examples that immediately come to mind - could be reviewed by the upstairs booth and have input ready for refs within a minute. You could even have a time limit - if a decision isn't made within 30-45 seconds, the call on the ice stands, move on.

I would also, just since I mentioned it, like to see the 'puck over glass' consequence be changed the same as an icing as opposed to a 2 minute delay of game penalty. If, in the refs assessment, the player deliberately fired a puck out of play because they were under duress, he can (and should) assess a 2 minute delay of game penalty.

Agreed. Tim Peel was close to retirement, no? So they kind of just let it go away and did the bare minimum. We all knew of game management by the refs but up until Peel, fans didn't have real proof. Now we do and to the leagues credit. We just all let it slide.
- Aaron_85

Bad reffing in every league. It won’t change because the leagues don’t want them calling things “by the book”.

why? wuts up with that guy
- senstroll

Back from the dead…

Take your pick Pierre
SDA, Abruzzese, Steeves or Hollowell

why? wuts up with that guy
- senstroll

He is just in love with the player

Back from the dead…

Take your pick Pierre
SDA, Abruzzese, Steeves or Hollowell
- mr.sir

via GIPHY

At the end of the day, hockey is so fluid that you aren't going to fix infractions that went uncalled, because the play will have moved on and I am not in favour of setting the clock back - and I'm sure the NHL is, likewise, not interested in extending games any longer. Ref accountability, extended responsibility to linesmen, and removal of game management would improve a significant number of those "missed" calls.

When you witness some of the nuanced, but proper, penalties that NHL refs call, you realise that they see a lot more than you often think they do, which means they let a lot go deliberately. And some things, if the ref is mic'ed up, you hear - "watch the cross check!", "That's enough," blah, blah, blah - they know it's a high octane, emotional, and testosterone fueled nutfest out there half the time, and depending on the ref, the game, the circumstances, and so on they'll let the boys play - and I'll say that those have often made for some of the best games I've seen. It's why I believe that the "game management" mandate is clearly there, despite denials by the NHL - because I know the refs are all actually better than this.

That said, some penalties which are less subjective and have an automatic consequence - puck over glass, high stick, hand in crease, thrown stick are examples that immediately come to mind - could be reviewed by the upstairs booth and have input ready for refs within a minute. You could even have a time limit - if a decision isn't made within 30-45 seconds, the call on the ice stands, move on.

I would also, just since I mentioned it, like to see the 'puck over glass' consequence be changed the same as an icing as opposed to a 2 minute delay of game penalty. If, in the refs assessment, the player deliberately fired a puck out of play because they were under duress, he can (and should) assess a 2 minute delay of game penalty.
- Monkeypunk

Do you know anything about what kind of internal review/accountability systems they have in place for refs? Is there anything beyond playoff assignments? I don’t actually think anything regarding ref accountability should be made public as it would just add fuel to all the “we were screwed” fire but knowing that refs are being assessed would be good.

I agree about calls being nuanced but I’m less clear about how much flows from some league mandated game management concept versus just the flow and emotions of the game itself.

I’m also conflicted about the puck over glass penalty. In some ways I’m inclined to stay with the too bad even if it was an accident approach. I’d hate to have the video replay guys trying to assess the fear in the guy’s eyes just before he shot it over.

This is a hockey opinion site. Winsix and I have different opinions on lots of things and are able to debate them as we have on this issue. It was a pretty innocuous post even if I didn’t add IMHO when I actually stated my opinion. Here’s the other thing Cush, sometimes it’s ok just to state a broad opinion without getting into a full debate at that time. But, like I said it’s a hockey opinion site and there always room for pissy interventions.
- Canada Cup

It's funny because this is what you do on here a lot, although condensending might be a better word to describe it vs pissy. I'm not surprised you don't see it or choose not to though.

Here is the other thing CC you don't just act this way with Winsix, you do it with many others and I'm not the first to point it out but here we are you telling me how things should go and what is ok to do and not ok because it's what you want to do & believe is ok.

Moving forward I'm simply going to choose to do my absolute best to not reply to your posts and would ask the same in return from you to make it easier for everyone.

Thanks and have a nice day.