Oh I know and it’s why I blame the core forwards.

It’s game 7, you’re expected to score. An assist isn’t enough, no points is terrible. This is where you make your millions. If you can’t get the job done in a game like that you’re not a true proven superstar in my eyes.

Matthews is winning awards good for him but until he proves he can carry a team when needed I’m seeing him as a star but not a superstar. That’s the difference between the two types.
- Dozzer

He outscored everyone in that series

He outscored everyone in that series
- Canada Cup

Not when it mattered so who cares?

Seriously… if a series hits game 7 games 1 through 6 no longer matter whatsoever.

At the risk of being banned, I do find it funny that this site generates hours upon hours of us armchair GMs figuring out trades for our 7th defenceman.

Just watch the game, nerds. Dubas ain't reading this.
- Atomic Wedgie

Agreed. The players, the coaches and management do not have near the same opinions and evaluation of players that most Leaf fans have.
Ask them about Tavares or Holl for example. Guaranteed what the players say, the coaches say and managers would say about players would not be even close.
As a fan would do you think you’d want to believe Leaf fans opinions or the other players, coaches and management.

Not when it mattered so who cares?

Seriously… if a series hits game 7 games 1 through 6 no longer matter whatsoever.
- Dozzer

Well some would say you can't make it to game 7 without winning 3 games before that one.

If Matthews scored 10 goals through the first 6 games, I'm not gonna blame him if he doesn't score in the last one.

It's a team game and to have success in the postseason, you need everyone to contribute.

The core players are just expected to carry a heavier load along the way.

Trade no one and run with 11 forwards til JT is back

That’s my answer.
- Dozzer

So our 5th d men don't have anything to do with winning but we are starting a season short because we don't want to get rid of our 6th d man?

Ok

Not when it mattered so who cares?

Seriously… if a series hits game 7 games 1 through 6 no longer matter whatsoever.
- Dozzer

So Nick Paul is the only player that matters in the series? I’m not going to complain about our core in that series. Our 4th line got crushed and Blackwell and Spezza and Cliff and Simmonds were having trouble throughout. 2 of the 4 are gone and I expect the other 2 to be gone soon

Agreed. The players, the coaches and management do not have near the same opinions and evaluation of players that most Leaf fans have.
Ask them about Tavares or Holl for example. Guaranteed what the players say, the coaches say and managers would say about players would not be even close.
As a fan would do you think you’d want to believe Leaf fans opinions or the other players, coaches and management.
- leafersince62

Once upon a time my brother was at a corporate event with Kevin Lowe.

This was when Dion Phaneuf was the Leafs' captain.

My brother started asking snide, rhetorical questions to Lowe about Phaneuf's value.

Lowe basically told him (politely) to shut the frank up, he had no idea what he was talking about, Phaneuf is considered a top D in the NHL.

What makes it so much more funny is Lowe shutting down my brother.

Yes, this is the same brother who I started making him fill out predictions before every Leafs ticket draft, or I wouldn't give him tickets. He's a typical Leafs fan - only happy to tell you that he told you so when things go badly.

Well some would say you can't make it to game 7 without winning 3 games before that one.

If Matthews scored 10 goals through the first 6 games, I'm not gonna blame him if he doesn't score in the last one.

It's a team game and to have success in the postseason, you need everyone to contribute.

The core players are just expected to carry a heavier load along the way.
- Scabeh

I disagree 100%

If you deserve to have fans and media put you on par with guys like Gretzky, Messier, Jagr, Lemieux, etc it means you step up your game when it matters most and win it for your team.

There’s a difference between a star (what Matthews is) and a superstar (what MacKinnon now is) because to be considered super you need to drag your team to a win even when the rest of them are struggling.

So our 5th d men don't have anything to do with winning but we are starting a season short because we don't want to get rid of our 6th d man?

Ok
- Santo_44

I’d happily keep all 6 D before all 12 forwards. Even the bottom pairing D see the ice a hell of a lot more than the 4th line.

I have a feeling you guys aren’t going to like what Keefe and Dubas decide to do to start the season.

I disagree 100%

If you deserve to have fans and media put you on par with guys like Gretzky, Messier, Jagr, Lemieux, etc it means you step up your game when it matters most and win it for your team.

There’s a difference between a star (what Matthews is) and a superstar (what MacKinnon now is) because to be considered super you need to drag your team to a win even when the rest of them are struggling.
- Dozzer

Well I disagree 200%. (that's right, that's twice as much disagreement!)

Mackinnon, Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Roy, Lafleur....

These guys did their part as major star players. They carried their load and more.

But it's a team game, and their teams won games where they didn't score.

It needs to happen, otherwise, you're not winning.

Who sent Colorado to the SCF? Mackinnon?

Hell no, it was my boy Lehkonen!

I’d happily keep all 6 D before all 12 forwards. Even the bottom pairing D see the ice a hell of a lot more than the 4th line.

I have a feeling you guys aren’t going to like what Keefe and Dubas decide to do to start the season.
- Dozzer

They won't go into the season short.

You are also missing the point. You are going around saying all that matters to win is the stars playing well and the supporting players don't matter.

But then you say the Leafs can't trade Holl and play Mete and call themselves a contender.

Very contradicting stuff here.

So Nick Paul is the only player that matters in the series? I’m not going to complain about our core in that series. Our 4th line got crushed and Blackwell and Spezza and Cliff and Simmonds were having trouble throughout. 2 of the 4 are gone and I expect the other 2 to be gone soon
- Canada Cup

The leafs shutdown D failed and their primary goal scorers failed as well

That’s why they lost.

No more blaming the 4th line. Either the top lines produce or you lose. Plain and simple.

Also it was the leafs primary shutdown D who let Paul score… and no the excuses do not fly with me.

Well I disagree 200%. (that's right, that's twice as much disagreement!)

Mackinnon, Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Roy, Lafleur....

These guys did their part as major star players. They carried their load and more.

But it's a team game, and their teams won games where they didn't score.

It needs to happen, otherwise, you're not winning.

Who sent Colorado to the SCF? Mackinnon?

Hell no, it was my boy Lehkonen!

- Scabeh

Bolded: Matthews, Marner, and JT aren’t because that isn’t just point production, it also requires winning the damn series and being the primary guys when it comes to accomplishing it.

Well I disagree 200%. (that's right, that's twice as much disagreement!)

Mackinnon, Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Roy, Lafleur....

These guys did their part as major star players. They carried their load and more.

But it's a team game, and their teams won games where they didn't score.

It needs to happen, otherwise, you're not winning.

Who sent Colorado to the SCF? Mackinnon?

Hell no, it was my boy Lehkonen!

- Scabeh

Same here.

The stars have to pull most of the weight but it is a team game.

The core 4 is less than half of the leafs cap...The greater half should have a say in deciding games no?

They won't go into the season short.

You are also missing the point. You are going around saying all that matters to win is the stars playing well and the supporting players don't matter.

But then you say the Leafs can't trade Holl and play Mete and call themselves a contender.

Very contradicting stuff here.
- Santo_44

Mete is half as good as Holl so yes bringing down your shutdown rightie for a leftie to play with an injury prone Muzzin I’m front of two goalies who have massive question marks around them is nothing short of flat out dumb.

I’m so damn happy Keefe and Dubas don’t see things the way you guys do when it comes to their D

Mete is half as good as Holl so yes bringing down your shutdown rightie for a leftie to play with an injury prone Muzzin I’m front of two goalies who have massive question marks around them is nothing short of flat out dumb.

I’m so damn happy Keefe and Dubas don’t see things the way you guys do when it comes to their D
- Dozzer

So if the leafs trade Holl will you eat your hat?


Holl is not their shutdown D. He is their 5th or 6th D on most nights.

He didnt even get their toughest assignments last season.

https://www.google.com/ur...Vaw1hljmXt1imfPWcWhJe3zX-


Look at his QOC..51%. He was not their shutdown D last season.

Holl is a nice supporting player, the same type of player you are saying don't matter when it counts.

Same here.

The stars have to pull most of the weight but it is a team game.

The core 4 is less than half of the leafs cap...The greater half should have a say in deciding games no?
- Santo_44

The core is damn near 75% of the leafs cap

Matthews, Marner, JT, Nylander, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie

Total: $58,630,616.00

Winning is primarily their responsibility, end of story.

Mete is half as good as Holl so yes bringing down your shutdown rightie for a leftie to play with an injury prone Muzzin I’m front of two goalies who have massive question marks around them is nothing short of flat out dumb.

I’m so damn happy Keefe and Dubas don’t see things the way you guys do when it comes to their D
- Dozzer

I don't get the hate Holl gets around here.

Everytime we play the Leafs, I think he's annoying to play against. Nothing flashy but he breaks plenty of plays and makes our forward go to the outside.

He's a bottom pairing defenseman, sure. But he's not a bad one in my book.

So if the leafs trade Holl will you eat your hat?


Holl is not their shutdown D. He is their 5th or 6th D on most nights.

He didnt even get their toughest assignments last season.

https://www.google.com/ur...Vaw1hljmXt1imfPWcWhJe3zX-


Look at his QOC..51%. He was not their shutdown D last season.

Holl is a nice supporting player, the same type of player you are saying don't matter when it counts.
- Santo_44

Those stats are heavily influenced by Muzzin being primarily hurt and Keefe experimenting.

If Muzzin is healthy the 2nd pairing (yes the shutdown pairing) will be him and Holl.

The core is damn near 75% of the leafs cap

Matthews, Marner, JT, Nylander, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie

Total: $58,630,616.00

Winning is primarily their responsibility, end of story.
- Dozzer

Yeah sorry I don't consider Muzzin and Brodie their core guys.

Agree to disagree.

Agreed. The players, the coaches and management do not have near the same opinions and evaluation of players that most Leaf fans have.
Ask them about Tavares or Holl for example. Guaranteed what the players say, the coaches say and managers would say about players would not be even close.
As a fan would do you think you’d want to believe Leaf fans opinions or the other players, coaches and management.
- leafersince62

We already know how Matthews feels about Holl the hockey player. He made that perfectly clear last season when he called him out on the bench multiple times, which lead to Holl rightfully getting benched.

I’d happily keep all 6 D before all 12 forwards. Even the bottom pairing D see the ice a hell of a lot more than the 4th line.

I have a feeling you guys aren’t going to like what Keefe and Dubas decide to do to start the season.
- Dozzer

I have no idea what Dubas is going to do. I don’t even fulling understand that start of season cap rules. I’m just sitting outside wasting time. I think they need at least 7 D and an extra forward plus JT on the roster given how many games they play at the start of the season. If there’s a way to do that without losing anyone valuable, great. I haven’t seen it. If they have to move someone, I’d pick Engvall because there are guys like him available cheaper.

I don't get the hate Holl gets around here.

Everytime we play the Leafs, I think he's annoying to play against. Nothing flashy but he breaks plenty of plays and makes our forward go to the outside.

He's a bottom pairing defenseman, sure. But he's not a bad one in my book.
- Scabeh

4th or 5th guy in my eyes.

This year I see it as the 4th with Muzzin (based on them staying healthy) so they can keep Gio’s experience beside Sandin/Liljegren (whoever is in the game)

Well I disagree 200%. (that's right, that's twice as much disagreement!)

Mackinnon, Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Roy, Lafleur....

These guys did their part as major star players. They carried their load and more.

But it's a team game, and their teams won games where they didn't score.

It needs to happen, otherwise, you're not winning.

Who sent Colorado to the SCF? Mackinnon?

Hell no, it was my boy Lehkonen!

- Scabeh

Lafleur did it by himself. He had no help.

It's embarrassing the scrubs that guy had to play with.

His only true linemate was a pack of smokes.

Those stats are heavily influenced by Muzzin being primarily hurt and Keefe experimenting.

If Muzzin is healthy the 2nd pairing (yes the shutdown pairing) will be him and Holl.
- Dozzer

I don't care how he got there.

He was below Reilly, Muzzin, Brodie and Gio for the level of comp he faced. He is not their shutdown D.