I get all that and having videos that scouts watch be real time information for those who need it.....big.....My career I am actually very numbers savvy, so I am not Against it...just realize when it comes with sports there are a TON Of moving parts, human variables, etc....

I just think it's very hard to say what works in baseball will transfer over to hockey...and I cringe each time I read how the Hawks seem hell bent on some massive analytic influx of data into their organization as a solution to what has ailed them. Are analytics important? Sure....just as important as a scouts in person observation...there are things that show up in person vs on paper.

Just feel at times the Hawks are a little too envious as to what the Cubs have had going on by hiring a McDonough, Faulkner, and now this analytics whiz kid.....just would like to see the Hawks pump the brakes a little on things like this.
- SteveRain

Agree. Most events in baseball involve two players, whereas hockey involves the complete interaction of many players at the same time. Much harder deal, imo.

My issue with Greenie is his (assumed) lack of hockey knowledge. Take software for scouts...does he know enough to be able to give them what they need? Or does someone have to tell him? Advanced metrics help teams scout other teams' players and prospects - does Greenie know what data to collect and how to present it?

About Dach's extension I think 3M to 4M is way high.

Look at some recent contracts for young centers.
Casey Middelstadt signed last year for 3 x 2.5M
Filip Chytil signed last year for 2 x 2.3M
Robert Thomas signed last year for 2 x 2.8M

2 x 2.5M tops for Kirby. If he figures it out, he can be rewarded the next contract.

Hey Chunk, I am not trying to get in a fight with you, but the statement I bolded seems wrong. Why would you not want to have the best information first, and then worry about how to pass it along to others. I am a computer applications developer, and my first responsibility is to get data correct. It's not my job to make it look pretty or easy to get to. I first have to make sure it is correct. Pass bad data, there is no way a corporation can made sound decisions.
- powerenforcer

Oh we’re fighting now PE!! 😄

I’m not minimizing the data either. I’m just saying you can have all the data you want, but if it isn’t organized and presented in a way that everyone can understand and easily access, it greatly reduces the value of the data.

From what I understand (take that for what it’s worth) a lot of the data gathering is automated now?

Agree. Most events in baseball involve two players, whereas hockey involves the complete interaction of many players at the same time. Much harder deal, imo.

My issue with Greenie is his (assumed) lack of hockey knowledge. Take software for scouts...does he know enough to be able to give them what they need? Or does someone have to tell him? Advanced metrics help teams scout other teams' players and prospects - does Greenie know what data to collect and how to present it?
- mohel

For what it’s worth, he played hockey through college. I’m sure there are some new aspects with which to contend, but I think he’ll be fine. As I’ve mentioned before, Greenberg’s contributions will likely go largely unnoticed by the fans. MacIver is the guy running all of scouting. He’s the one with the more visible job.

Playoff hockey is just a different animal. Just look at the defense of the teams still in the playoffs. Yes you have your offensive defenseman like Makar (who is not small), and Fox (who is on the smaller side for a defenseman), but for the majority, the defense is big. Tampa has big oaks on the back end, so does Calgary, Carolina, Edmonton Keith is one of the smaller D they have.

Oh we’re fighting now PE!! 😄

I’m not minimizing the data either. I’m just saying you can have all the data you want, but if it isn’t organized and presented in a way that everyone can understand and easily access, it greatly reduces the value of the data.

From what I understand (take that for what it’s worth) a lot of the data gathering is automated now?
- Chunk

Dropin the keyboards and here they go

Dropin the keyboards and here they go
- 6628

I'm too old to fight.

Agree. Most events in baseball involve two players, whereas hockey involves the complete interaction of many players at the same time. Much harder deal, imo.

My issue with Greenie is his (assumed) lack of hockey knowledge. Take software for scouts...does he know enough to be able to give them what they need? Or does someone have to tell him? Advanced metrics help teams scout other teams' players and prospects - does Greenie know what data to collect and how to present it?
- mohel

100% agreed and you bring up an excellent point in regards to a sport primarily based on 1 on 1 matchups and a continual stop and start allowing you to move position players based on count and likely outcome of ball in play....vs a sport that has 10 guys constantly moving outside of starts in a defensive, neutral, or offensive zone.....

Again, I get there are tendencies for each particular player and where they are most successful in scoring from but it's like you can pivot and put extra personnel to combat that because they can just move the puck over and you back to ground zero....

Just feel strongly way too many different outcomes, at play to have 1 defining system that allows cutting edge success in regards to the team.

I know LBR posted back last summer with the Jones trade some numbers that made sense when you watch him play where he likes to push the play and be almost a 4th forward at times....and with that....if this is 209-2015 and they pair a Hammer with him and have a Hossa or Toews or responsible Fs covering for him, does his JFresh stats look better? I think it does.

This is going to be interesting to see what "type" of player Davidson wants to target to put his stamp on this team.

For what it’s worth, he played hockey through college. I’m sure there are some new aspects with which to contend, but I think he’ll be fine. As I’ve mentioned before, Greenberg’s contributions will likely go largely unnoticed by the fans. MacIver is the guy running all of scouting. He’s the one with the more visible job.
- Chunk

OK...that's fair......I just hope they don't get overly engulfed with analytics vs other metrics because for all the love the Oakland As get, and they retool/rebuild constantly, they have shown an ability to get the playoffs a lot where their analytical model over 162 games works....but I believe in the 20+ years since "moneyball" started they have won 2 playoff series.....so every Theo Epstein there is a swing to the other side where it's likely affected by dollars spent on superior players...where as in hockey everyone is operating with a set budget so there isn't a lot of advantages you can get by throwing money at it....

About Dach's extension I think 3M to 4M is way high.

Look at some recent contracts for young centers.
Casey Middelstadt signed last year for 3 x 2.5M
Filip Chytil signed last year for 2 x 2.3M
Robert Thomas signed last year for 2 x 2.8M

2 x 2.5M tops for Kirby. If he figures it out, he can be rewarded the next contract.
- boilermaker100

I would agree....the only advantage they could get is signing slightly higher and getting longer term IF Davidson and his team feel Dach will pan out....I don't feel Dach has much, if any, leverage to this negotiation at all....really down to does Davidson believe Dach is a piece he can build around.

100% agreed and you bring up an excellent point in regards to a sport primarily based on 1 on 1 matchups and a continual stop and start allowing you to move position players based on count and likely outcome of ball in play....vs a sport that has 10 guys constantly moving outside of starts in a defensive, neutral, or offensive zone.....

Again, I get there are tendencies for each particular player and where they are most successful in scoring from but it's like you can pivot and put extra personnel to combat that because they can just move the puck over and you back to ground zero....

Just feel strongly way too many different outcomes, at play to have 1 defining system that allows cutting edge success in regards to the team.

I know LBR posted back last summer with the Jones trade some numbers that made sense when you watch him play where he likes to push the play and be almost a 4th forward at times....and with that....if this is 209-2015 and they pair a Hammer with him and have a Hossa or Toews or responsible Fs covering for him, does his JFresh stats look better? I think it does.

This is going to be interesting to see what "type" of player Davidson wants to target to put his stamp on this team.
- SteveRain

Crossing my fingers here, but perhaps since Greenburg reportedly has played and followed hockey since a yout he can figure a more efficient way to use his professional talents as they pertain to the game of hockey. You seem correct that they have a Cub executive hard on so lets hope this guy is more than that.

Crossing my fingers here, but perhaps since Greenburg reportedly has played and followed hockey since a yout he can figure a more efficient way to use his professional talents as they pertain to the game of hockey. You seem correct that they have a Cub executive hard on so lets hope this guy is more than that.
- 6628

Nothing particularly wrong with Cub executives, it really just depends on what your looking for. Say what you will about the egotistical a-hole McD, but he made both the Cubs and Hawks a boatload of money. In terms of Epstein and his minions, while the most recent blowing it up after he left the organization may be a tough pill to swallow, thats because his previous years of not just a WS, but multiple runs to the Div or LCS until last year.

As a person who understands analytics are important, but doesn't think they should be the final word....I would be very curious where a team like Florida ranked at the end of the season entering the playoffs? What an absolute disaster they have been...struggled with the caps, and now are just getting dominated by Tampa.

Did find it interesting Keith Jones went out of his way a few times to bash Hagel for that hit. Have to say...100% dirty and was shocked it wasn't a major.

Think we are destined for Tampa vs Colorado...which is perfectly OK...with Binnington out, I just dont see STL having much of a chance....and Calgary and Edmonton don't have the defense or goaltending to knock off the Avs.
- SteveRain

Florida is being out coached IMO. They haven't made any meaningful adjustments and certainly their in game changes are having little to no impact.

Q probably makes a difference. Maybe not winning the series difference but I think they would look better with someone who has experience and who has beaten Cooper before.

Not really something you can measure.

Keith Jones would like to keep his job and coming to terms with what is or isn't a dirty hit is probably in his best interest.

Calgary was one of the best defensive teams in the league and they have competent goaltending.

Assuming the Hurricanes get past NYR - unless they get goalied - they have the speed and depth to give Tampa problems.

OK...that's fair......I just hope they don't get overly engulfed with analytics vs other metrics because for all the love the Oakland As get, and they retool/rebuild constantly, they have shown an ability to get the playoffs a lot where their analytical model over 162 games works....but I believe in the 20+ years since "moneyball" started they have won 2 playoff series.....so every Theo Epstein there is a swing to the other side where it's likely affected by dollars spent on superior players...where as in hockey everyone is operating with a set budget so there isn't a lot of advantages you can get by throwing money at it....
- SteveRain

This is why I am 1000 times more interested in what Norm does/has to say than Greenberg. He and his staff are going to be the ones using the tools that Greenberg provides (along with their eyes and understanding of hockey) to evaluate players and prospects.

About Dach's extension I think 3M to 4M is way high.

Look at some recent contracts for young centers.
Casey Middelstadt signed last year for 3 x 2.5M
Filip Chytil signed last year for 2 x 2.3M
Robert Thomas signed last year for 2 x 2.8M

2 x 2.5M tops for Kirby. If he figures it out, he can be rewarded the next contract.
- boilermaker100

KD should deal Dach to Montreal for Caufield.

I know Barry Melrose is older, and losing it based how rarely ESPN rolls him out...but I did fully agree with what he said last night regarding Tampa vs Florida is that come playoff hockey...you have to win your battles, and out will people.

I just don't see how an analytics report will take that X factor into consideration. So many unsung guys who likely are (-) for 82 games but come playoff team are so essential to winning they are invaluable. I am very curious how Davidson and his hockey ops department navigate the analytics and eye test and build their team moving forward.

That's also before anyone takes into account what a HOT goaltender can do who can almost win a series for this team vs superior team....see the kid from Dallas vs Calgary.

Just seems like way too many variables come playoff time for a computer to take into account to win vs baseball which is really the same game in spring training as it is in the regular season as it is in the playoffs. Pitch by pitch may be more important but not nearly as many human factors as there is in hockey IMO
- SteveRain

To get into the playoffs and be a "good team" having positive shot shares and a good penalty kill are pretty good determining success factors.

Come playoff time - for any sport, even baseball - the best team doesn't always win an elimination tournament. The Dodgers have been probably the best team and well run organization in baseball the last half dozen years and have one world series to show for it. Based on the statistics the White Sox should have 4 or 5 fewer wins then they do now.

The numbers aren't everything but more often then not they are a fairly reliable predictor of success. Based on the anything can happen in the playoffs can happen principle highlighted above - getting there should be the focus and hopefully a team is talented, healthy and dialed in enough to go deep.

Nothing particularly wrong with Cub executives, it really just depends on what your looking for. Say what you will about the egotistical a-hole McD, but he made both the Cubs and Hawks a boatload of money. In terms of Epstein and his minions, while the most recent blowing it up after he left the organization may be a tough pill to swallow, thats because his previous years of not just a WS, but multiple runs to the Div or LCS until last year.
- TheTrob

McD thought he could demand the hawks be awesome. It helped that he got hired at just the right time. But that's not how it works. Them being awesome had nothing to do with him. The hawks were so good that his bs didn't matter. Until it did, and then McD had no answer. Good hockey sells and bad hockey doesn't no matter how much marketing bullpoop someone can think up. I wish he was still there if only to hear his excuses and to see how many people he could shove under the bus. But no, he got his get out of jail free card non-disclosure, took his money and (frank)ed right off.

Lotta talk about winning in the playoffs. My Guy Dobber writes on Monday's and he addresses this today. Some may find this helpful. .....

https://dobberhockey.com/...own-dont-be-silly-may-23/

The way the defending Stanley Cup Champions are manhandling the President's Trophy winners, you have to have more respect for the Maple Leafs. The Leafs actually outplayed Tampa in 18 out of 22 periods and probably deserved the series. But the Lightning found a way – and that's what Champs do. I think that most, if not all, teams need to have that lesson taught to them before they can reach the pinnacle. Tampa learned it. Remember:

2016-17 Did not make the playoffs

2017-18 Lost in semi-finals

2018-19 Swept in first round

Then they won their two Cups. It's a process. Always has been.

McD thought he could demand the hawks be awesome. It helped that he got hired at just the right time. But that's not how it works. Them being awesome had nothing to do with him. The hawks were so good that his bs didn't matter. Until it did, and then McD had no answer. Good hockey sells and bad hockey doesn't no matter how much marketing bullpoop someone can think up. I wish he was still there if only to hear his excuses and to see how many people he could shove under the bus. But no, he got his get out of jail free card non-disclosure, took his money and (frank)ed right off.
- 6628

Great post, 66....

The only way fans are going to see better hockey and chasing a playoff spot, is once we have speedy forwards, some larger forwards on top two lines, and natural goal scorers who will produce in the playoffs

Like DeBruncat and Kane would be capable to produce. Which at least this season Huberdeau and Barkov aren't doing

To start the rebuild Davidson would like a first round this season. Of course he may not get one unless he trades Kane and or DeBrincat

Teams that would part with their #1 who envision winning with Kane and DeBrincat. You can theorize but does Columbus want to start winning now? The NYR won't give you but only one draft choice and some so so prospects. New Jersey makes more sense

We must get at least a 2023 first round pick and maybe we get a 2022 first + perhaps a prospect is included. But no way will anyone trade a top two overall in 2023. You have to get a winning first or second lottery pick to get the top two forwards

I would rather keep at least either Kane or DeBrincat. We aren't going to see speedy forwards, larger top line forwards, a goal scorer from draft choices impact our roster for a couple years - or longer - if we don't get a top two lottery pick

Sure Murphy probably goes next trade deadline.

We see some dmen making our team and two goaltender prospects is on the radar. But those firwards....it may be a few years....however they arrive.

Lotta talk about winning in the playoffs. My Guy Dobber writes on Monday's and he addresses this today. Some may find this helpful. .....

https://dobberhockey.com/...own-dont-be-silly-may-23/

The way the defending Stanley Cup Champions are manhandling the President's Trophy winners, you have to have more respect for the Maple Leafs. The Leafs actually outplayed Tampa in 18 out of 22 periods and probably deserved the series. But the Lightning found a way – and that's what Champs do. I think that most, if not all, teams need to have that lesson taught to them before they can reach the pinnacle. Tampa learned it. Remember:

2016-17 Did not make the playoffs

2017-18 Lost in semi-finals

2018-19 Swept in first round

Then they won their two Cups. It's a process. Always has been.
- Mr Ricochet

Also....

2015 - lost in the Stanley Cup Final.

100% agreed and you bring up an excellent point in regards to a sport primarily based on 1 on 1 matchups and a continual stop and start allowing you to move position players based on count and likely outcome of ball in play....vs a sport that has 10 guys constantly moving outside of starts in a defensive, neutral, or offensive zone.....

Again, I get there are tendencies for each particular player and where they are most successful in scoring from but it's like you can pivot and put extra personnel to combat that because they can just move the puck over and you back to ground zero....

Just feel strongly way too many different outcomes, at play to have 1 defining system that allows cutting edge success in regards to the team.

I know LBR posted back last summer with the Jones trade some numbers that made sense when you watch him play where he likes to push the play and be almost a 4th forward at times....and with that....if this is 209-2015 and they pair a Hammer with him and have a Hossa or Toews or responsible Fs covering for him, does his JFresh stats look better? I think it does.

This is going to be interesting to see what "type" of player Davidson wants to target to put his stamp on this team.
- SteveRain

Eh, he had a decent enough season scoring wise and was fine on a poopty team.

Not a lot of that helps the fact that he allows a lot of entries and isn't great 1v1. He would probably have issues disrupting in the neutral zone and denying entries which was a big part of the Cup winning teams.

KD should deal Dach to Montreal for Caufield.
- DarthKane

Yes yes yes what great idea hawks would have add dcat that deal to.

McD thought he could demand the hawks be awesome. It helped that he got hired at just the right time. But that's not how it works. Them being awesome had nothing to do with him. The hawks were so good that his bs didn't matter. Until it did, and then McD had no answer. Good hockey sells and bad hockey doesn't no matter how much marketing bullpoop someone can think up. I wish he was still there if only to hear his excuses and to see how many people he could shove under the bus. But no, he got his get out of jail free card non-disclosure, took his money and (frank)ed right off.
- 6628

Well said...to this day whenever I am heading north on 355-290 W I always laugh to myself when I pass the water tower for "elk grove village" and image that ego maniac riding on top of a firetruck like a conquering hero for something he inherited and VERY LITTLE, if ANY, input on the build.

McD was very good at marketing and exploiting his stars until he had zero use for them and then he would exile them to win the court of public opinion....Sammy Sosa built the momentum and fanbase to this date that supports the crap they roll out and McEgo exploited that with beanie baby giveaways as Sosa was crushing 50-66 homers a year....and then once he could....he outed him by releasing a video.

That's why his @ss kissers in the media like Uncle Barry Rozner who for years would always take his side have shockingly retired and vanished without ever having to go searching for their deity who has a golden parachute from the Wirtz corporation.

In the end McDonough is/always will be the greatest corporate cut throat man this city may ever know....while making millions for the Cubs and the Wirtz family.

Florida is being out coached IMO. They haven't made any meaningful adjustments and certainly their in game changes are having little to no impact.

Q probably makes a difference. Maybe not winning the series difference but I think they would look better with someone who has experience and who has beaten Cooper before.

Not really something you can measure.

Keith Jones would like to keep his job and coming to terms with what is or isn't a dirty hit is probably in his best interest.

Calgary was one of the best defensive teams in the league and they have competent goaltending.

Assuming the Hurricanes get past NYR - unless they get goalied - they have the speed and depth to give Tampa problems.
- fattybeef

They are being outcoached but when Kucherov walked Ekblad back in game 1....when Florida was up early and controlling most of that game....I think that took a lot wind out of their sale. FLorida stars are pretty non existent starting in goal.

Calgary looks like a dumpster fire in their own zone and Markstrom has been average at best this series.

Carolina could give Tampa a series, but Tampa looks to have found their championship swagger and they are doing this without Point which is even more impressive.