I'm not sure why that means he wouldn't be better suited to playing wing at this point in his career? You can still work for takeaways while playing the wing. Malkin is also far and away the worst on the team at faceoffs which is a pretty damn big part of the position.

Going further, everyone ripped on Carter and a lot of that was deserved as he did not look good. But he is an offensive center and it should tell you something that Sullivan felt he needed to bury him with a defensive role at a 31% OZS rate vs Malkins 83%!!!! So no poop that Malkin had amazing CF, Xgf, etc.... he only ever started possessions in the offensive zone.

For me, it is all about putting guys in position to maximize their skillset. Malkin is WAY better offensively than defensively, so do whatever it takes to get the puck on his stick in an attacking position. So to answer your question, no, that one cherry picked stat doesn't want me to keep playing Malkin at center.
- MacPatty

Faceoffs don't mean nearly as much as people think they do. They lead directly to chances like 4% of the time. Not saying they aren't important, but they aren't AS important as people make them out to be. Faceoffs completely shift people's opinions and it's hilarious. Geno had over 50% faceoffs and dude even got a few selke votes.

His defensive ability is grossly underrated. Not saying he's Bergeron or Sid, but he's definitely not as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Dude was backchecking, getting sticks in the lane, and playing good defense all throughout the playoffs. Pretty sure a handful of guys here took notice.

Carter is definitely not an offensive center anymore, and hasn't been since like 2016.

He's more like a black hole of nothing when he's on the ice.

Faceoffs don't mean nearly as much as people think they do. They lead directly to chances like 4% of the time. Not saying they aren't important, but they aren't AS important as people make them out to be. Faceoffs completely shift people's opinions and it's hilarious. Geno had over 50% faceoffs and dude even got a few selke votes.

His defensive ability is grossly underrated. Not saying he's Bergeron or Sid, but he's definitely not as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Dude was backchecking, getting sticks in the lane, and playing good defense all throughout the playoffs. Pretty sure a handful of guys here took notice.

Carter is definitely not an offensive center anymore, and hasn't been since like 2016.

He's more like a black hole of nothing when he's on the ice.
- j.boyd919

Faceoffs are important like forced turnovers are, not the end all be all, but they matter. I would actually say that they are massively underrated by people here on this board, ironically mostly Malkin fanboys.

I'm not saying that Malkin doesn't have the ability to be solid defensively, he just doesn't have the commitment to it. He makes great plays sometimes and then others he can't be bothered to backcheck. It's obvious that Sullivan agrees with me that he is better suited getting more offensive chances as he has such a high OZS%. And for the record, if Malkin started 70% of the time in his own zone, he would have also looked like a black hole.

It's annoying how unevenly or maybe how broadly you guys apply advanced statistics. When you only consider leading indicators like (xgf, cf, etc) and not the underlying indicators (ozs), you can completely skew what the effectiveness of the stat... this is usually where you see the eye test not match up to the "fancy stats". The smart guys in the NHL generally are able to decipher this (maybe not Chayka and Dubas) but in most discourse it just seems to be lazy analysis.

But back to my original point, I would like to see Malkin back and playing the wing so that he can spend as much effort as possible on the offensive side of the puck because regardless of if you think his defensive skills are good or bad, his offensive skills are far superior. This is not me insulting him, it is saying that we should use him in a way that will help the team be most successful.

Faceoffs are important like forced turnovers are, not the end all be all, but they matter. I would actually say that they are massively underrated by people here on this board, ironically mostly Malkin fanboys.

I'm not saying that Malkin doesn't have the ability to be solid defensively, he just doesn't have the commitment to it. He makes great plays sometimes and then others he can't be bothered to backcheck. It's obvious that Sullivan agrees with me that he is better suited getting more offensive chances as he has such a high OZS%. And for the record, if Malkin started 70% of the time in his own zone, he would have also looked like a black hole.

It's annoying how unevenly or maybe how broadly you guys apply advanced statistics. When you only consider leading indicators like (xgf, cf, etc) and not the underlying indicators (ozs), you can completely skew what the effectiveness of the stat... this is usually where you see the eye test not match up to the "fancy stats". The smart guys in the NHL generally are able to decipher this (maybe not Chayka and Dubas) but in most discourse it just seems to be lazy analysis.

But back to my original point, I would like to see Malkin back and playing the wing so that he can spend as much effort as possible on the offensive side of the puck because regardless of if you think his defensive skills are good or bad, his offensive skills are far superior. This is not me insulting him, it is saying that we should use him in a way that will help the team be most successful.
- MacPatty

Eye test says most shifts start on the fly. FOH with that ozone start BS.

Faceoffs are important like forced turnovers are, not the end all be all, but they matter. I would actually say that they are massively underrated by people here on this board, ironically mostly Malkin fanboys.

I'm not saying that Malkin doesn't have the ability to be solid defensively, he just doesn't have the commitment to it. He makes great plays sometimes and then others he can't be bothered to backcheck. It's obvious that Sullivan agrees with me that he is better suited getting more offensive chances as he has such a high OZS%. And for the record, if Malkin started 70% of the time in his own zone, he would have also looked like a black hole.

It's annoying how unevenly or maybe how broadly you guys apply advanced statistics. When you only consider leading indicators like (xgf, cf, etc) and not the underlying indicators (ozs), you can completely skew what the effectiveness of the stat... this is usually where you see the eye test not match up to the "fancy stats". The smart guys in the NHL generally are able to decipher this (maybe not Chayka and Dubas) but in most discourse it just seems to be lazy analysis.

But back to my original point, I would like to see Malkin back and playing the wing so that he can spend as much effort as possible on the offensive side of the puck because regardless of if you think his defensive skills are good or bad, his offensive skills are far superior. This is not me insulting him, it is saying that we should use him in a way that will help the team be most successful.
- MacPatty

Zone starts aren't really indicative of how well players play either.

Further analysis:
Jeff Carter had 1,349 shifts at 5v5.
779 of them started on the fly. 57% of them.

So he had 570 zone starts that were taken by faceoffs.
153 OZ - 26%
197 NZ - 34%
220 DZ - 38%

He clearly does not start in his own zone 70% of the time.

This entire argument is invalid.

I am 50-50 on Hextall. I do like how his moves were small but they did seem to do well. Rakell, Heinen, and Carter (last year). He definitely panicked around the expansion draft. I do think his patience has been good and I do like the fact we have prospects who potentially could take multiple roster spots next season.

I don't like the potential low ball offers to Malkin and Letang. I also don't like the fact that we got rid of McCann and Turbo for pretty much nothing. I think Hextall could be a bit more aggressive. I do think much like others that his plan should be to trade some players and grab some additional cap space. I also think he should go after some younger talent.

I am 50-50 on Hextall. I do like how his moves were small but they did seem to do well. Rakell, Heinen, and Carter (last year). He definitely panicked around the expansion draft. I do think his patience has been good and I do like the fact we have prospects who potentially could take multiple roster spots next season.

I don't like the potential low ball offers to Malkin and Letang. I also don't like the fact that we got rid of McCann and Turbo for pretty much nothing. I think Hextall could be a bit more aggressive. I do think much like others that his plan should be to trade some players and grab some additional cap space. I also think he should go after some younger talent.
- 123Kid

No GM, no matter how good, is free of some bad decisions. He definitely didn't handle the expansion draft well. Outside of that, he really wasn't a bad GM, but I felt he could have been more aggressive.

I've said this before, but I think they needed someone who was in between JR and Hextall. Someone who can be calculated, but also aggressive.

Zone starts aren't really indicative of how well players play either.

Further analysis:
Jeff Carter had 1,349 shifts at 5v5.
779 of them started on the fly. 57% of them.

So he had 570 zone starts that were taken by faceoffs.
153 OZ - 26%
197 NZ - 34%
220 DZ - 38%

He clearly does not start in his own zone 70% of the time.

This entire argument is invalid.
- j.boyd919

I was referring to his playoff ozs and yes, the stat does not measure neutral zone starts, I thought that was obvious. Do you really not think that getting 100+ offensive starts throughout the course of the season would lead to all of your offensive stat categories being higher?

I'm not sure why you think you are right here... true or false, if you start more shifts in the offensive zone, are you more likely to produce more statistical offence? It's obviously a true statement but because it deflates your simplistic statistical references you will try to beat around the bush and argue something separate than the point that was being made.

You would make a great press secretary for Biden some day.

I was referring to his playoff ozs and yes, the stat does not measure neutral zone starts, I thought that was obvious. Do you really not think that getting 100+ offensive starts throughout the course of the season would lead to all of your offensive stat categories being higher?

I'm not sure why you think you are right here... true or false, if you start more shifts in the offensive zone, are you more likely to produce more statistical offence? It's obviously a true statement but because it deflates your simplistic statistical references you will try to beat around the bush and argue something separate than the point that was being made.

You would make a great press secretary for Biden some day.



- MacPatty

They needed a scapegoat and Carter is it man. Never mind 9.25 million dollars registering 1 shot on goal in game 7. Counteract any stat with another stat that makes your stat wrong and their stat right. It’s like left brain right brain stuff.

I was referring to his playoff ozs and yes, the stat does not measure neutral zone starts, I thought that was obvious. Do you really not think that getting 100+ offensive starts throughout the course of the season would lead to all of your offensive stat categories being higher?

I'm not sure why you think you are right here... true or false, if you start more shifts in the offensive zone, are you more likely to produce more statistical offence? It's obviously a true statement but because it deflates your simplistic statistical references you will try to beat around the bush and argue something separate than the point that was being made.

You would make a great press secretary for Biden some day.



- MacPatty

Ah, so in the playoffs he started in the D-zone 19% of the time.

91 on the fly
28 DZ
15 NZ
12 OZ

So again, not 70%.

Even if you narrowed it down to starts with faceoffs
55 total starts, 28 of them DZ: 50%

Not 70%.

They needed a scapegoat and Carter is it man. Never mind 9.25 million dollars registering 1 shot on goal in game 7. Counteract any stat with another stat that makes your stat wrong and their stat right. It’s like left brain right brain stuff.
- Grinder47

Hilarious that you think anyone is using Carter as a scape goat lol.

He definitely sucked ass in the playoffs but is only one of many reasons the Pens lost.

Your comprehension is comical at times.

Faceoffs don't mean nearly as much as people think they do. They lead directly to chances like 4% of the time. Not saying they aren't important, but they aren't AS important as people make them out to be. Faceoffs completely shift people's opinions and it's hilarious. Geno had over 50% faceoffs and dude even got a few selke votes.

His defensive ability is grossly underrated. Not saying he's Bergeron or Sid, but he's definitely not as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Dude was backchecking, getting sticks in the lane, and playing good defense all throughout the playoffs. Pretty sure a handful of guys here took notice.

Carter is definitely not an offensive center anymore, and hasn't been since like 2016.

He's more like a black hole of nothing when he's on the ice.
- j.boyd919

Except beating the vezina goalie 3 times in 7 games. That didn’t have any positive affect on the pens.

Hilarious that you think anyone is using Carter as a scape goat lol.

He definitely sucked ass in the playoffs but is only one of many reasons the Pens lost.

Your comprehension is comical at times.
- j.boyd919

Yes. Scoring goals is bad in hockey. I now comprehend.

I also comprehend that when the puck stays on the defensive zone for an extended period of time it is 1 of the 5 guys on the ice assumes all the blame.

Except beating the vezina goalie 3 times in 7 games. That didn’t have any positive affect on the pens.
- Grinder47

Doesn't matter if you can't play defense and keep it out of your own net.

Yes. Scoring goals is bad in hockey. I now comprehend.
- Grinder47

Geno's line scored 6 goals while giving up 0.
Crater's line scored 3 and while gave up 9.

Geno's line is definitely the problem.

Geno's line scored 6 goals while giving up 0.
Crater's line scored 3 and while gave up 9.

Geno's line is definitely the problem.
- j.boyd919

Once again plus minus is a dumb stat. Said by you 100 times when that was the cool thing to do.

Once again plus minus is a dumb stat. Said by you 100 times when that was the cool thing to do.
- Grinder47

Ain't nobody talking about plus minus dummy.

Geno's line scored 6 goals while giving up 0.
Crater's line scored 3 and while gave up 9.

Geno's line is definitely the problem.
- j.boyd919

I don’t think those numbers are correct, but I’d like to see the data which links Carters exact influence on each of those goals. Where the puck was when he jumped over the boards, any mistakes his teammates, on or off the ice that might have maid mistakes before hand. You know so I can properly do some hockey evaluation.

I don’t think those numbers are correct, but I’d like to see the data which links Carters exact influence on each of those goals. Where the puck was when he jumped over the boards, any mistakes his teammates, on or off the ice that might have maid mistakes before hand. You know so I can properly do some hockey evaluation.
- Grinder47

Go ahead. Go do your research then.

Go ahead. Go do your research then.
- j.boyd919

I would really hope that the coaching staff reviews all goals against. But Kapanen had a sweater all year so maybe Sully is actually as bad as I make him out to be.

I would really hope that the coaching staff reviews all goals against. But Kapanen had a sweater all year so maybe Sully is actually as bad as I make him out to be.
- Grinder47

Kap was +4 in the playoffs. So 10 better than Carter.

He was +7 in the regular season while Carter was a -11.

Get your eyes checked.

Ah, so in the playoffs he started in the D-zone 19% of the time.

91 on the fly
28 DZ
15 NZ
12 OZ

So again, not 70%.

Even if you narrowed it down to starts with faceoffs
55 total starts, 28 of them DZ: 50%

Not 70%.
- j.boyd919

28/40 =70%.

I love that you still can't admit that fancy stats favor those with heavy OZS deployment. And frankly it's a doubly bad scenario getting buried because other teams deploy their best offensive players in those scenarios.

So no poop Carter getting buried with starts in his own zone against Zib, Panarin and Fox would have a worse goal differential than Malkin loaded up starting in the offensive zone against Rooney, Chityl and Braun.

It's odd how you love stats but you have no idea how they play out in an actual game.

And again, back to my original point, Geno is a much stronger offensive player than he is defensively and is better suited to play the wing at this point in his career.

28/40 =70%.

I love that you still can't admit that fancy stats favor those with heavy OZS deployment. And frankly it's a doubly bad scenario getting buried because other teams deploy their best offensive players in those scenarios.

So no poop Carter getting buried with starts in his own zone against Zib, Panarin and Fox would have a worse goal differential than Malkin loaded up starting in the offensive zone against Rooney, Chityl and Braun.

It's odd how you love stats but you have no idea how they play out in an actual game.

And again, back to my original point, Geno is a much stronger offensive player than he is defensively and is better suited to play the wing at this point in his career.
- MacPatty

Nah.

28/40 =70%.

I love that you still can't admit that fancy stats favor those with heavy OZS deployment. And frankly it's a doubly bad scenario getting buried because other teams deploy their best offensive players in those scenarios.

So no poop Carter getting buried with starts in his own zone against Zib, Panarin and Fox would have a worse goal differential than Malkin loaded up starting in the offensive zone against Rooney, Chityl and Braun.

It's odd how you love stats but you have no idea how they play out in an actual game.

And again, back to my original point, Geno is a much stronger offensive player than he is defensively and is better suited to play the wing at this point in his career.
- MacPatty

What’s so fancy about goal differential?

Ouch. At least we're not Fla. 0 For 2022 on the PP and they choke game 2 at home with 3 seconds left after yet another empty PP late. Maybe they should try #70 in front of the net for more than the last 25 seconds of their PP's.