In the real world, it is not an ethical dilemma.
- MJL

If you think that watching employees die, possibly due to conditions of your organizations environment, while burdening their family with debt isn't an ethical dilemma then... ok.

Ethical dilemmas are "situations in which there is a difficult choice to be made between two or more options, neither of which resolves the situation in a manner that is consistent with accepted ethical guidelines".

This EXACT situation - employee sick due to circumstances that may be the environment - is a business case that's studied. There's no argument to that. Your dismissiveness of it is one of the exact positions you can take. It's not a moral judgement - but it is an ethical position that you've adopted. E.g. it's not the organizations issue.

If you think that watching employees die, possibly due to conditions of your organizations environment, while burdening their family with debt isn't an ethical dilemma then... ok.

Ethical dilemmas are "situations in which there is a difficult choice to be made between two or more options, neither of which resolves the situation in a manner that is consistent with accepted ethical guidelines".

This EXACT situation - employee sick due to circumstances that may be the environment - is a business case that's studied. There's no argument to that. Your dismissiveness of it is one of the exact positions you can take. It's not a moral judgement - but it is an ethical position that you've adopted. E.g. it's not the organizations issue.
- atibus

Cliff is a Doctor, lawyer, and an Indian chief. Don't tell him his business....

If you're not sure then explain how the Flyers are morally obligated to pay his medical expenses?
- MJL

Umm the facility they owned and put together gave him cancer...

If you're not sure then explain how the Flyers are morally obligated to pay his medical expenses?
- MJL

You want me to explain what I'm not sure about?

I understand your point of view. I dont think anything I say is going to appease you. All I can say is if he were my employee and he got a disease that might have been caused by conditions at my workplace I'd feel morally obligated to help. I know it still has to be proved that conditions at the rink caused the disease and that's going to be tough to prove. I also know that longterm exposure to certain chemicals, like benzene, have been determined to cause cancer. To not get rid of the propane burning zamboni or at least move the guys office away from the is perplexing to me. Even if they prove that the fumes are harmless why wouldnt you move your employees office if he was concerned about breathing them in all day?

If you think that watching employees die, possibly due to conditions of your organizations environment, while burdening their family with debt isn't an ethical dilemma then... ok.

Ethical dilemmas are "situations in which there is a difficult choice to be made between two or more options, neither of which resolves the situation in a manner that is consistent with accepted ethical guidelines".

This EXACT situation - employee sick due to circumstances that may be the environment - is a business case that's studied. There's no argument to that. Your dismissiveness of it is one of the exact positions you can take. It's not a moral judgement - but it is an ethical position that you've adopted. E.g. it's not the organizations issue.
- atibus

May be are the key words. If it is determined in a court of law or through an agreement that the Flyers are liable, then there will be an ethical dilemma. However at this point, we don't truly know if the Flyers have caused this. At that point, ethics will become involved. Until then, my ethics and belief in the justice system and the bed rock principle of innocent until proven guilty, does not see it as an ethical dilemma at this point.

Umm the facility they owned and put together gave him cancer...
- ClaudeFather

You don't know that for a fact at this point.

You want me to explain what I'm not sure about?

I understand your point of view. I dont think anything I say is going to appease you. All I can say is if he were my employee and he got a disease that might have been caused by conditions at my workplace I'd feel morally obligated to help. I know it still has to be proved that conditions at the rink caused the disease and that's going to be tough to prove. I also know that longterm exposure to certain chemicals, like benzene, have been determined to cause cancer. To not get rid of the propane burning zamboni or at least move the guys office away from the is perplexing to me. Even if they prove that the fumes are harmless why wouldnt you move your employees office if he was concerned about breathing them in all day?
- Dkos

Again, might have. If it was determined that my actions caused the illness, then I would also feel morally obligated to take care of the bills. However, we don't know that for a fact yet. It's that simple at this point.

You don't know that for a fact at this point.
- MJL

He’s a how many year employee? This isn’t the mom and pop deli man, they got money. Help the guy out.

Again, might have. If it was determined that my actions caused the illness, then I would also feel morally obligated to take care of the bills. However, we don't know that for a fact yet. It's that simple at this point.
- MJL

IDK. Seems to me it's going to come down to "who can prove what" in a court now. I'm not convinced that equals the truth. My money would probably be with the defense in this case. It's not going to be easy to prove that Zamboni fumes caused his cancer.

As far as a moral delemma, let me put it this way…do you think it’s possible that conditions at the rink caused his cancer? If so…there’s your moral dilemma

May be are the key words. If it is determined in a court of law or through an agreement that the Flyers are liable, then there will be an ethical dilemma. However at this point, we don't truly know if the Flyers have caused this. At that point, ethics will become involved. Until then, my ethics and belief in the justice system and the bed rock principle of innocent until proven guilty, does not see it as an ethical dilemma at this point.
- MJL

It's not about innocent or guilty (which isn't even in play because it's a civil case and not a criminal case; but I digress). The actions are already taken and it became an ethical dilemma before the suit was filed. The organization already made a choice and the outcome will likely be unsatisfactory to one or both sides regardless of the result of the court case.

Ethics <> Law no matter what you believe or what words you underline. There are ethical things that are illegal and legal things that are unethical.

It's not about innocent or guilty (which isn't even in play because it's a civil case and not a criminal case; but I digress). The actions are already taken and it became an ethical dilemma before the suit was filed. The organization already made a choice and the outcome will likely be unsatisfactory to one or both sides regardless of the result of the court case.

Ethics <> Law no matter what you believe or what words you underline. There are ethical things that are illegal and legal things that are unethical.
- atibus

interesting. Thanks

You want me to explain what I'm not sure about?

I understand your point of view. I dont think anything I say is going to appease you. All I can say is if he were my employee and he got a disease that might have been caused by conditions at my workplace I'd feel morally obligated to help. I know it still has to be proved that conditions at the rink caused the disease and that's going to be tough to prove. I also know that longterm exposure to certain chemicals, like benzene, have been determined to cause cancer. To not get rid of the propane burning zamboni or at least move the guys office away from the is perplexing to me. Even if they prove that the fumes are harmless why wouldnt you move your employees office if he was concerned about breathing them in all day?
- Dkos

Congratulations; you're in an ethical dilemma.

Congratulations; you're in an ethical dilemma.
- atibus

ha ha ha. I guess you could kind of deny the possibility that fumes gave McCrossin cancer, but when his officemate (Sal Raffa) develops the same rare blood cancer I dont know how the possibility cant enter your mind.

ha ha ha. I guess you could kind of the deny the possibility that fumes gave McCrossin cancer, but when his officemate (Sal Raffa) develops the same rare blood cancer I dont know how the possibility cant enter your mind.
- Dkos

Well, this can be argued and may well be in court if it makes it that far. It's still a hard choice that the organization had to make when presented with this dilemma. We can choose to help these long-term employees and have it cost us money to do so, or we can deny any culpability which will likely result in a lawsuit. They made a choice and one which relied on their ethical orientation as an organization; one which is viewed as cold, bureaucratic, and money focused. It's at odds with their desired outward appearance as one of a family, strong community connections, and a winning culture.

He’s a how many year employee? This isn’t the mom and pop deli man, they got money. Help the guy out.
- ClaudeFather

Doesn't matter. They can do that if they choose to but they are not morally or ethically bound to do so at this point.

IDK. Seems to me it's going to come down to "who can prove what" in a court now. I'm not convinced that equals the truth. My money would probably be with the defense in this case. It's not going to be easy to prove that Zamboni fumes caused his cancer.

As far as a moral delemma, let me put it this way…do you think it’s possible that conditions at the rink caused his cancer? If so…there’s your moral dilemma
- Dkos

You have a point there that what is proven is not always the truth.

My thinking it's possible, which I do. Even likely which I do, doesn't make it a moral dilemma.

Doesn't matter. They can do that if they choose to but they are not morally or ethically bound to do so at this point.
- MJL

Should the flyers build around Sean Couturier?

It's not about innocent or guilty (which isn't even in play because it's a civil case and not a criminal case; but I digress). The actions are already taken and it became an ethical dilemma before the suit was filed. The organization already made a choice and the outcome will likely be unsatisfactory to one or both sides regardless of the result of the court case.

Ethics <> Law no matter what you believe or what words you underline. There are ethical things that are illegal and legal things that are unethical.
- atibus

Sure it's a case of innocent or guilty, it's just in a civil case the burden of proof is a different requirement. Just making a choice doesn't make it a moral or ethical dilemma.

Should the flyers build around Sean Couturier?
- hello it's me 2050

stfu

Should the flyers build around Sean Couturier?
- hello it's me 2050

Will Morgan Frost ever be a decent player?

stfu
- MBFlyerfan

2
eat a snickers home slice. Also no

Will Morgan Frost ever be a decent player?
- ClaudeFather

Decent sure, after that who knows. Maybe Cliff can chime in.

Moving someones office ( as someone suggested )on its own does not resolve the issue.

Here is how this sorts out on the technical side in detail.

Fumes travel and are mixed with space air in a variety of ways, they could be circulated throughout the building, if near a return and drawn in. Certain buildings ventilation design requires positive and negative pressure in specific areas by code.
Even with that ( and I didnt do the research since no one is paying me) building construction could allow fumes to come through undercut doors or other construction that is not tight.. I doubt there was any room pressurization requirements in the construction of that facility, not being health care or lab or production. You pressurize a room to keep fumes or biological contaminants out from other areas.

As I said before, there is a detailed path of forensic reverse engineering that is going to take place involving codes in place, manufacturers installation instructions, evaluating the the engineers design for compliance, checking to see if the contractor executed the installation properly, and changes to the building, codes and machinery over the lifespan.

How are fumes handled with other types of vehicles in buildings?

Fire engines which have to be warmed up periodically have a system of breakaway hose reels with connections on the diesel stacks and discharge outside.
Auto maintenance garages have similar in floor or overhead exhaust systems that go over vehicle exhaust

Any of us who played hockey know how the zambonis are fired up inside and dump the snow outside..Dont think I ever saw any special exhaust capture on a zamboni at any rink.

This litigation is going to raise the standard of care required in designing any future ice rink/its ventilation system and the machinery used. In laymans terms, that means going above required standard code minimum if it has not been revised.

They may have used the best practices possible dictated by the codes and standards in place at the time, but like anything else, best practices evolve with knowledge, some of which may be obtained painfully.

Sure it's a case of innocent or guilty, it's just in a civil case the burden of proof is a different requirement. Just making a choice doesn't make it a moral or ethical dilemma.
- MJL

It's literally the definition of ethical dilemma. You can just say it isn't but that doesn't change the definition of ethical dilemma.

I've not said moral dilemma. Morals are personal values and we're not speaking about a specific person.

Will Morgan Frost ever be a decent player?
- ClaudeFather

Already is