I defended him only because I am tired of the we have the worst defenseman in the league narrative. I think it started with Orpik, then Schultz, then Cole, finally Johnson. May have been one or two in between, of course it continues with Beaulieu.
- Thunderbolt

So what are your thoughts on Brian Doomedlin?

That’s an over exaggeration. We never argued Orpik was the worst defenseman in the league, it was that when we had to give him his final extension here it was clear he was no longer a top 4 d man and the league had passed him by. He was anchor and over deployed in his role while being paid too much but was still an ok bottom pairing guy. The Schultz stuff was a narrative that carried over from Edmonton. The stats guys were actually on the forefront there of saying if you shelter him he could be very useful. Cole was only bad here for about a half a year when Mike Johnston put him completely out of his element as a top pairing guy. Otherwise he was an awesome #5 here and was paid pretty fairly.

Jack Johnson was legitimately the worst defenseman in the league.
- Victoro311

Yeah I dont think Schultz or Cole were being bashed that much here...maybe Schultz towards the end after a bad injury had him playing like warm garbage. I dont recall anyone being pleased with losing Cole, I could be mistaken. Two of those guys formed a great pair.

Ah the old, he's in the NHL he can't be that bad argument mixed in with the coaches do must do everything right argument lol.

I don't know any stats people that say physical play and positional play don't have much importance. That's bananas to even think that.

Just out of curiosity... how often do you watch JJ play?
- j.boyd919

Ah the super intelligent . If our stats say he is not an NHL player what does it matter that experienced hockey people sign him and play him. Oh sorry did I say experienced. I know that means nothing to the stat know it alls.

Come on professor physical play, hitting has no worth in the analytic hockey world. And the reason for that is simple. You can’t measure it with some b.s. stat. Can you measure the effect of a big hit ?Can you measure what impact it has on the players?
Analytic followers say hitting as little impact. Can you measure determination?
How a player reacts after being hit? Can you measure what impact any “old school”
Intangible has on the outcome of a game ?
No, so it’s useless in your NEW stat world.
So the players you put down are always the more physical players.
I don’t watch a lot of Avs games I’m a Bruin fan . But no way he is as bad as you stats guys make him. Relying on what I have seen and the fact that real hockey evaluators seem to still think he is an NHL player I will go against the super stat professors here and their leader Mr Wilson.

Ah the super intelligent . If our stats say he is not an NHL player what does it matter that experienced hockey people sign him and play him. Oh sorry did I say experienced. I know that means nothing to the stat know it alls.

Come on professor physical play, hitting has no worth in the analytic hockey world. And the reason for that is simple. You can’t measure it with some b.s. stat. Can you measure the effect of a big hit ?Can you measure what impact it has on the players?
Analytic followers say hitting as little impact. Can you measure determination?
How a player reacts after being hit? Can you measure what impact any “old school”
Intangible has on the outcome of a game ?
No, so it’s useless in your NEW stat world.
So the players you put down are always the more physical players.
I don’t watch a lot of Avs games I’m a Bruin fan . But no way he is as bad as you stats guys make him. Relying on what I have seen and the fact that real hockey evaluators seem to still think he is an NHL player I will go against the super stat professors here and their leader Mr Wilson.
- johnnypie

Dude I can count on one f'n hand the amount of Pens games with JJ in the lineup I DIDN'T see. He was f'n terrible pretty much every game. You think he lays a lot of big hits? haha. Now that you've conceded you aren't watching the games ....you're basing this all off of +/- when he plays for an absolute offensive powerhouse and also the fact no team holds on to him or ever wants to keep him?

Yeah I dont think Schultz or Cole were being bashed that much here...maybe Schultz towards the end after a bad injury had him playing like warm garbage. I dont recall anyone being pleased with losing Cole, I could be mistaken. Two of those guys formed a great pair.
- MattStrat

Schultz started getting a lot of poop here because his last two playoff performances where disasters. And guess what? Schultz's last two seasons he played a ton with Jack Johnson a (frank) ton, especially in the playoffs. In 18/19 he basically exclusively played with Johnson except for the one playoff game Johnson was scratched for Maatta.

2019/2020 top two most common pairing at even strength during regular season:
Marcus Petterson - 62.2%
Jack Johnson - 22.6%

Playoffs:
Jack Johnson - 64.7%
Marcus Petterson - 12.9%

2018/2019 top two most common pairing at even strength during regular season:
Jack Johnson - 76% (!!!!)
Brian Dumoulin - 6.2%

Playoffs:
Jack Johnson - 52.4%
Olli Maatta - 16.7%

Ah the super intelligent . If our stats say he is not an NHL player what does it matter that experienced hockey people sign him and play him. Oh sorry did I say experienced. I know that means nothing to the stat know it alls.

Come on professor physical play, hitting has no worth in the analytic hockey world. And the reason for that is simple. You can’t measure it with some b.s. stat. Can you measure the effect of a big hit ?Can you measure what impact it has on the players?
Analytic followers say hitting as little impact. Can you measure determination?
How a player reacts after being hit? Can you measure what impact any “old school”
Intangible has on the outcome of a game ?
No, so it’s useless in your NEW stat world.
So the players you put down are always the more physical players.
I don’t watch a lot of Avs games I’m a Bruin fan . But no way he is as bad as you stats guys make him. Relying on what I have seen and the fact that real hockey evaluators seem to still think he is an NHL player I will go against the super stat professors here and their leader Mr Wilson.
- johnnypie

Point proven that this guy doesn't watch Johnson or know what his play style is and is just defending him because the analytics guys don't like him.

Ah the super intelligent . If our stats say he is not an NHL player what does it matter that experienced hockey people sign him and play him. Oh sorry did I say experienced. I know that means nothing to the stat know it alls.

Come on professor physical play, hitting has no worth in the analytic hockey world. And the reason for that is simple. You can’t measure it with some b.s. stat. Can you measure the effect of a big hit ?Can you measure what impact it has on the players?
Analytic followers say hitting as little impact. Can you measure determination?
How a player reacts after being hit? Can you measure what impact any “old school”
Intangible has on the outcome of a game ?
No, so it’s useless in your NEW stat world.
So the players you put down are always the more physical players.
I don’t watch a lot of Avs games I’m a Bruin fan . But no way he is as bad as you stats guys make him. Relying on what I have seen and the fact that real hockey evaluators seem to still think he is an NHL player I will go against the super stat professors here and their leader Mr Wilson.
- johnnypie

Hahahhahahahahhaahahahahahaahaha

This whole post is a big “oof.”

Point proven that this guy doesn't watch Johnson or know what his play style is and is just defending him because the analytics guys don't like him.
- Victoro311

Yup. The first bunch of garbage was pretty funny too. Almost like he’s reinforcing that stats people don’t watch games even though he said that they do. Dudes flip flopping like a fish out of water.

I’m not an analytics guy and JJ sucks. Sucks as much as Danton Heinen.

Point proven that this guy doesn't watch Johnson or know what his play style is and is just defending him because the analytics guys don't like him.
- Victoro311

No what it proves is I’m not afraid to tell the truth. I know all you pen fans are not missing any Avs games to watch Johnson.
I watch Bruin games and have NHL center ice package so I watch a good late matchup. Avs are fun to watch and I haven’t noticed Johnson being terrible.

By the way since your an big analytic guy. Please comment on how you measure the physical , hard hitting , intangible aspects of the game. What stats measure determination. Stat that measures effect
of aggressive play on different players. Does it have any effect on the outcome of the game ? A players expected goals is important in who should be in the lineup. Defensive zone entries very important.
The impact of big hits and determined physical play not so much. Yeah right .

No what it proves is I’m not afraid to tell the truth. I know all you pen fans are not missing any Avs games to watch Johnson.
I watch Bruin games and have NHL center ice package so I watch a good late matchup. Avs are fun to watch and I haven’t noticed Johnson being terrible.

By the way since your an big analytic guy. Please comment on how you measure the physical , hard hitting , intangible aspects of the game. What stats measure determination. Stat that measures effect
of aggressive play on different players. Does it have any effect on the outcome of the game ? A players expected goals is important in who should be in the lineup. Defensive zone entries very important.
The impact of big hits and determined physical play not so much. Yeah right .
- johnnypie

How do you disregard tangible things like negative goal differentials?

That’s an over exaggeration. We never argued Orpik was the worst defenseman in the league, it was that when we had to give him his final extension here it was clear he was no longer a top 4 d man and the league had passed him by. He was anchor and over deployed in his role while being paid too much but was still an ok bottom pairing guy. The Schultz stuff was a narrative that carried over from Edmonton. The stats guys were actually on the forefront there of saying if you shelter him he could be very useful. Cole was only bad here for about a half a year when Mike Johnston put him completely out of his element as a top pairing guy. Otherwise he was an awesome #5 here and was paid pretty fairly.

Jack Johnson was legitimately the worst defenseman in the league.
- Victoro311

Yes the Schultz thing started in Edmonton, but people on here jumped on it immediately. It wasn't until it became obvious his offensive abilities were stifled in Edmonton that people here jumped on his bandwagon. Cole is, was, and always will be a black hole on offense. For that he was severely criticized here, to the point he was considered easily replaceable. It took Cole to dominate on a couple 5v3 that won people over. His bluntness also endeared him to the fanbase.

Orpik was more an RW thing, I'll give you that. Orpik was adored here before RW started and particularly when he laid out three Wings in five seconds.

Last season Codi Ceci was dubbed the worst defenseman. He proved not only was he not the worst defenseman in the league, he was actually half way decent. Now we have Nathan Beaulieu.

I've tired of that narrative every time we get a new defenseman. Because of that I'm not going to believe any of that BS around here. That is until someone proves to be worse than Derrick Pouliott,

No what it proves is I’m not afraid to tell the truth. I know all you pen fans are not missing any Avs games to watch Johnson.
I watch Bruin games and have NHL center ice package so I watch a good late matchup. Avs are fun to watch and I haven’t noticed Johnson being terrible.

By the way since your an big analytic guy. Please comment on how you measure the physical , hard hitting , intangible aspects of the game. What stats measure determination. Stat that measures effect
of aggressive play on different players. Does it have any effect on the outcome of the game ? A players expected goals is important in who should be in the lineup. Defensive zone entries very important.
The impact of big hits and determined physical play not so much. Yeah right .
- johnnypie

Do they really really track defensive zone entries? Like players carrying the puck back into their defensive zone?

No what it proves is I’m not afraid to tell the truth. I know all you pen fans are not missing any Avs games to watch Johnson.
I watch Bruin games and have NHL center ice package so I watch a good late matchup. Avs are fun to watch and I haven’t noticed Johnson being terrible.

By the way since your an big analytic guy. Please comment on how you measure the physical , hard hitting , intangible aspects of the game. What stats measure determination. Stat that measures effect
of aggressive play on different players. Does it have any effect on the outcome of the game ? A players expected goals is important in who should be in the lineup. Defensive zone entries very important.
The impact of big hits and determined physical play not so much. Yeah right .
- johnnypie

Nah I watched Jack Johnson for three straight years. I don’t need to catch Aves games regularly to know who he is now that he’s even closer to 40. Much better than a Bs fan that apparently occasionally catches Aves games.

Stats don’t measure intangibles. It’s silly to argue that intangibles don’t matter and while there’s plenty of dummy analytics purists like RW and James Tanner, most people who find value in analytics don’t pretend that there isn’t more to evaluate, especially when it comes to properly mixing play styles and skill sets. Saying intangibles don’t matter because they can’t be measured is almost as dumb as thinking analytics are totally invalid because they don’t account for them. Take the numbers, use your brain and put them in the context of the human stuff that happens on the ice to identify potential trends that aren’t immediately obvious that can give you a leg up in team construction.

None of this is really complicated or complex but you’re deadset on dealing in absolutes here and it’s gotten you to the conclusion that Jack Johnson doesn’t suck, so whatever. Be wrong and stupid like the rest of the Mbumhole mouth breathers out there.

Do they really really track defensive zone entries? Like players carrying the puck back into their defensive zone?
- Grinder47

No. They track broken up entry attempts. When a Dman stops a puck carrier from entering the zone, intercepts a pass, etc.

Nah I watched Jack Johnson for three straight years. I don’t need to catch Aves games regularly to know who he is now that he’s even closer to 40. Much better than a Bs fan that apparently occasionally catches Aves games.

Stats don’t measure intangibles. It’s silly to argue that intangibles don’t matter and while there’s plenty of dummy analytics purists like RW and James Tanner, most people who find value in analytics don’t pretend that there isn’t more to evaluate, especially when it comes to properly mixing play styles and skill sets. Saying intangibles don’t matter because they can’t be measured is almost as dumb as thinking analytics are totally invalid because they don’t account for them. Take the numbers, use your brain and put them in the context of the human stuff that happens on the ice to identify potential trends that aren’t immediately obvious that can give you a leg up in team construction.

None of this is really complicated or complex but you’re deadset on dealing in absolutes here and it’s gotten you to the conclusion that Jack Johnson doesn’t suck, so whatever. Be wrong and stupid like the rest of the Mbumhole mouth breathers out there.
- Victoro311

Someone asked why mouth breather is an insult. Did we ever establish why that is? What’s the origin of mouth breather as an insult?

Yes the Schultz thing started in Edmonton, but people on here jumped on it immediately. It wasn't until it became obvious his offensive abilities were stifled in Edmonton that people here jumped on his bandwagon. Cole is, was, and always will be a black hole on offense. For that he was severely criticized here, to the point he was considered easily replaceable. It took Cole to dominate on a couple 5v3 that won people over. His bluntness also endeared him to the fanbase.

Orpik was more an RW thing, I'll give you that. Orpik was adored here before RW started and particularly when he laid out three Wings in five seconds.

Last season Codi Ceci was dubbed the worst defenseman. He proved not only was he not the worst defenseman in the league, he was actually half way decent. Now we have Nathan Beaulieu.

I've tired of that narrative every time we get a new defenseman. Because of that I'm not going to believe any of that BS around here. That is until someone proves to be worse than Derrick Pouliott,
- Thunderbolt

I think your point about Schultz, Ceci, and also Gudbranson that you didn’t mention is a pretty important one when talking about analytics because those guys all came down to a change in deployment. I think generally, analytics are pretty good at sussing out when a player is being under deployed and could succeed in a bigger role, but a lot less effective at sussing out when a player is being over deployed and could succeed in a larger role. Cus when you’re out of your depth, you’re just gonna suck and your stats are gonna reflect that.

I do think it’s dumb to take on large contracts on guys with awful metrics on the hopes that putting them on the bottom pairing will make the rebound, so in that sense I still think Gudbranson and to a much greater extent Johnson were pretty bad acquisitions even though Guddy played well here to the point that we were able to dump him pretty easily. But Ceci and Schultz for the peanuts we got them for against the cap initially I think we’re fine “trust your gut numbers be damned” gambles and both panned out.

Someone asked why mouth breather is an insult. Did we ever establish why that is? What’s the origin of mouth breather as an insult?
- j.boyd919

When in doubt use Occam’s Razor and go with the simplest explanation. People who have their mouths open all the time look dumb, so it’s an insult.

Someone asked why mouth breather is an insult. Did we ever establish why that is? What’s the origin of mouth breather as an insult?
- j.boyd919

Slang from the early 1900s for stupid person.

You guys really giving into JohnnyPie? He's trolling hard lol.

I think your point about Schultz, Ceci, and also Gudbranson that you didn’t mention is a pretty important one when talking about analytics because those guys all came down to a change in deployment. I think generally, analytics are pretty good at sussing out when a player is being under deployed and could succeed in a bigger role, but a lot less effective at sussing out when a player is being over deployed and could succeed in a larger role. Cus when you’re out of your depth, you’re just gonna suck and your stats are gonna reflect that.

I do think it’s dumb to take on large contracts on guys with awful metrics on the hopes that putting them on the bottom pairing will make the rebound, so in that sense I still think Gudbranson and to a much greater extent Johnson were pretty bad acquisitions even though Guddy played well here to the point that we were able to dump him pretty easily. But Ceci and Schultz for the peanuts we got them for against the cap initially I think we’re fine “trust your gut numbers be damned” gambles and both panned out.
- Victoro311

Pretty sure back in the HERO chart days, Schultz actually had a solid hero chart and the consensus was that he was being played as a 1D when he was more in line with a 4-5D that was good in the PP.

You guys really giving into JohnnyPie? He's trolling hard lol.
- 668710

If you’re posting a paragraph to troll, you’re doing it wrong.

Pretty sure back in the HERO chart days, Schultz actually had a solid hero chart and the consensus was that he was being played as a 1D when he was more in line with a 4-5D that was good in the PP.
- j.boyd919

Shultzy had a good shot and was a decent dman, pretty much sums it up haha

If you’re posting a paragraph to troll, you’re doing it wrong.
- Feds91Stammer

He needs to go to your school of troll lol. But yea there's no (frank)ing way he actually thinks he's good.

He needs to go to your school of troll lol. But yea there's no (frank)ing way he actually thinks he's good.
- 668710

There are people who think that hockey minds are infallible. It’s quite astonishing actually.