Hurt me ? Just like to point out how dumb you know it all stats guys are. If he is so bad how could he play over 1000 NHL games and now be a regular on #1 team ?
The point about his salary makes no sense. The coach is playing him 20 minutes because of what he is getting paid ? Wilson and most of the corsi , all stats guys always think their so smart saying who should play, who sucks etc but it never blends with reality. Obviously hockey decision makers don’t go by the fantasy stat line. Guess their not progressive thinkers. You know like all the new progressive gm’s and coaches that keep getting hired. Know how important punctuation is here, hope I didn’t make any mistakes 😄😄
- johnnypie

Here’s a cool fancy stat.

16 NHL seasons. Plus 5v5 goal differential 3 times. Even once. 12 negative seasons. For a career differential of -117.

Are cap/CBA implications the reason we are getting Angello over DOC?
- MattStrat

Probably combination of cap, call up limits, and development vs 7 mins on the 4th line.

Can't believe that Johnson's been off the team for two years now and there are still some people on here that are so in their feelings that JR made a mistake that they still feel the need to cry about the stats nerds.

Take stats totally out of it. The Penguins as an organization had an unspoken rule of never buying a guy out. They broke that rule just to get rid of Jack Johnson. You're gonna tell me that the guy that was so bad that ownership was willing to go against their managerial values to get him gone by any means necessary didn't actually suck? Get the (frank) out of here.

Can't believe that Johnson's been off the team for two years now and there are still some people on here that are so in their feelings that JR made a mistake that they still feel the need to cry about the stats nerds.

Take stats totally out of it. The Penguins as an organization had an unspoken rule of never buying a guy out. They broke that rule just to get rid of Jack Johnson. You're gonna tell me that the guy that was so bad that ownership was willing to go against their managerial values to get him gone by any means necessary didn't actually suck? Get the (frank) out of here.
- Victoro311

Over 1000 NHL games nerd.

Hurt me ? Just like to point out how dumb you know it all stats guys are. If he is so bad how could he play over 1000 NHL games and now be a regular on #1 team ?
The point about his salary makes no sense. The coach is playing him 20 minutes because of what he is getting paid ? Wilson and most of the corsi , all stats guys always think their so smart saying who should play, who sucks etc but it never blends with reality. Obviously hockey decision makers don’t go by the fantasy stat line. Guess their not progressive thinkers. You know like all the new progressive gm’s and coaches that keep getting hired. Know how important punctuation is here, hope I didn’t make any mistakes 😄😄
- johnnypie

^Basically your post.

The fact that we didn't try to move Kapenan for a competent top 6 guy was a bad move. That and banking that Zucker would ever be healthy. Rakell has looked good, and plays the right way but Geno needs help on his RW like crazy. Carter ain't lookin like it. Kap ain't it. Erod ain't it. Shoulda tried to flip Zucker and Kapenan to VAN for Boeser and ran Rakell-Geno-Boeser lol

Jake-Sid-Rust
Rakell-Geno-Boeser
Heinen-Carter-Erod
McGinn-Blueger-Boyle
- j.boyd919

Zucker isn’t a finisher but I think he could help be a part of a good line with rakell and geno. Zucker just can’t be the scorer. But yeah I don’t think it should be hard to offload Kap and a LD. That’s 6.5ish mil to just replace Kap since Friedman is already here. Maybe upgrade a 3rd line winger. Dump mcginn for another couple mil. This team won’t be Colorado but they should be able to make the playoffs and take a round or two of healthy.

Here’s a cool fancy stat.

16 NHL seasons. Plus 5v5 goal differential 3 times. Even once. 12 negative seasons. For a career differential of -117.
- Feds91Stammer

Everyone on hockeybuzz would probably be a plus player on the Avs this season haha....Johnny Pies flies in to diss people who like and look into stats all while busting out plus/minus for his argument hahaha

Everyone on hockeybuzz would probably be a plus player on the Avs this season haha....Johnny Pies flies in to diss people who like and look into stats all while busting out plus/minus for his argument hahaha
- MattStrat

The most flawed stat in hockey history lol

Zucker isn’t a finisher but I think he could help be a part of a good line with rakell and geno. Zucker just can’t be the scorer. But yeah I don’t think it should be hard to offload Kap and a LD. That’s 6.5ish mil to just replace Kap since Friedman is already here. Maybe upgrade a 3rd line winger. Dump mcginn for another couple mil. This team won’t be Colorado but they should be able to make the playoffs and take a round or two of healthy.
- 10inchTerror

Why do you say Zucker isn't a finisher? He's posted good shooting percentages his entire career. He's had a number of 20+ goal years. I would say he's overpaid and not a good fit with Malkin before I'd say he doesn't finish. I'd put him with Crosby or Blueger before Malkin any day of the week.

We don't have six guys good enough in the bottom six to 'spread the wealth'. Nor do we have a strong enough bottom six to dedicate one line to be a third scoring line. With the addition of Rakell, we have five guys who can play top six. All others are auditioning for that coveted third spot beside Malkin. Next they're looking for a position on our third line. The fourth line on this team is basically non-existent. The sooner we realize this the better. I just hope it's not too late.

Why do you say Zucker isn't a finisher? He's posted good shooting percentages his entire career. He's had a number of 20+ goal years. I would say he's overpaid and not a good fit with Malkin before I'd say he doesn't finish. I'd put him with Crosby or Blueger before Malkin any day of the week.

We don't have six guys good enough in the bottom six to 'spread the wealth'. Nor do we have a strong enough bottom six to dedicate one line to be a third scoring line. With the addition of Rakell, we have five guys who can play top six. All others are auditioning for that coveted third spot beside Malkin. Next they're looking for a position on our third line. The fourth line on this team is basically non-existent. The sooner we realize this the better. I just hope it's not too late.
- Thunderbolt

I never saw him in Minnesota but he doesn’t finish here in his time in pittsburgh. Maybe that’s just a couple years of bad luck, maybe it’s age and his hands are declining. Maybe having another threat in rakell will open the ice up for zuck. He was playing well before his surgery, just couldn’t score a goal. But the way he was hounding the puck and battling would probably do well with geno and rakell and he won’t be as frustrating to watch because I’m expecting someone else to score on that line now.

The most flawed stat in hockey history lol
- j.boyd919

I know and expected goals for and zone entries while standing on one skate etc really tell the story. I don’t even like Johnson but do you think that because he is still contributing to a top team after 16 years he is not as worthless as Wilson and you stat guys say. Every year same excuses when it’s proven on the ice you don’t win with fancy stats. Obviously you need to pay attention to performance stats but their just a part of the puzzle. When you make determinations based on stats alone it shows how much you really know. You can use stats to make points on opposite sides of an argument. That’s my whole point with Wilson , reading stats doesn’t make you a top talent evaluator. There is the intangible parts of a player that you can’t overlook. And that is shown on the ice .

I know and expected goals for and zone entries while standing on one skate etc really tell the story. I don’t even like Johnson but do you think that because he is still contributing to a top team after 16 years he is not as worthless as Wilson and you stat guys say. Every year same excuses when it’s proven on the ice you don’t win with fancy stats. Obviously you need to pay attention to performance stats but their just a part of the puzzle. When you make determinations based on stats alone it shows how much you really know. You can use stats to make points on opposite sides of an argument. That’s my whole point with Wilson , reading stats doesn’t make you a top talent evaluator. There is the intangible parts of a player that you can’t overlook. And that is shown on the ice .
- johnnypie

If you watch JJ for more than 5 mins and say he’s “contributing” you should probably use stats and completely abandon the eye test.

I know and expected goals for and zone entries while standing on one skate etc really tell the story. I don’t even like Johnson but do you think that because he is still contributing to a top team after 16 years he is not as worthless as Wilson and you stat guys say. Every year same excuses when it’s proven on the ice you don’t win with fancy stats. Obviously you need to pay attention to performance stats but their just a part of the puzzle. When you make determinations based on stats alone it shows how much you really know. You can use stats to make points on opposite sides of an argument. That’s my whole point with Wilson , reading stats doesn’t make you a top talent evaluator. There is the intangible parts of a player that you can’t overlook. And that is shown on the ice .
- johnnypie

If you think that stats people don't watch hockey, you are pretty god damn ignorant. The entire reason stats people got into stats is because they love watching the game of hockey and it gives them another evaluation tool when watching the games.

Also, JJ is worthless.

If you think that stats people don't watch hockey, you are pretty god damn ignorant. The entire reason stats people got into stats is because they love watching the game of hockey and it gives them another evaluation tool when watching the games.

Also, JJ is worthless.
- j.boyd919

Jack Johnson is a weird case study in how the debate over stats has become sectarian and tribal. In theory, Johnson is one of those players that stats guys and old school guys should dislike equally. His metrics are record setting bad so stats people obviously dislike him. He’s also this big hulking guy that’s doesn’t use his size well, is a complete liability on defense, and is just kind of this poopty offensive defenseman that just kind of skates around and blindly shoots. Idk if there’s an archetype of player that the old school guys hate more than the defenseman that sucks at defense and Johnson has the size and physical ability to be excellent at defense which should make it worse. But since the analytics crowd is anti-Johnson, it’s more important for the old school guys to be anti-analytics that it is for them to be consistent in what it is they actually dislike. Just taking a side on a knee jerk just to be on other side of the enemy team.

If you think that stats people don't watch hockey, you are pretty god damn ignorant. The entire reason stats people got into stats is because they love watching the game of hockey and it gives them another evaluation tool when watching the games.

Also, JJ is worthless.
- j.boyd919

Never said stat people don’t watch hockey
I said they only pay attention to stats.
Physical play , being in position etc don’t have much importance. And I keep hearing
how bad this guy is but NHL coaches keep playing him. He can’t play at all but on the top team he is playing a regular shift. Anybody would be good on that team I’m told. Then why him ? If he was just a cheap option he wouldn’t be playing the minutes he’s playing.if they were hiding him he wouldn’t average 17+ mins. I don’t think he is that good and he could lose his job if there is a better option but you corsi etc guys go by your numbers and give no credit if the numbers on some worthless stats aren’t good. Common sense tells you he isn’t playing that bad.

Jack Johnson is a weird case study in how the debate over stats has become sectarian and tribal. In theory, Johnson is one of those players that stats guys and old school guys should dislike equally. His metrics are record setting bad so stats people obviously dislike him. He’s also this big hulking guy that’s doesn’t use his size well, is a complete liability on defense, and is just kind of this poopty offensive defenseman that just kind of skates around and blindly shoots. Idk if there’s an archetype of player that the old school guys hate more than the defenseman that sucks at defense and Johnson has the size and physical ability to be excellent at defense which should make it worse. But since the analytics crowd is anti-Johnson, it’s more important for the old school guys to be anti-analytics that it is for them to be consistent in what it is they actually dislike. Just taking a side on a knee jerk just to be on other side of the enemy team.
- Victoro311

What's wild to me is that JJ is like a bigger/stronger Mike Matheson in terms of ability/skating. JJ got by on athleticism, and honestly got drafted on it too but you throw him on the ice in the NHL and his IQ is basement level. Matheson's first year I thought he was pretty bad and very similar in style to JJ (minus the pointless hits that leave your partner on an island). When we acquired Matheson, I felt like Matheson was what GMJR touted JJ as when he signed him. This year I think Matheson has evolved his game into using his superior skating to be much better with his gap control and active stick, not to mention back checking after joining a rush.

Never said stat people don’t watch hockey
I said they only pay attention to stats.
Physical play , being in position etc don’t have much importance. And I keep hearing
how bad this guy is but NHL coaches keep playing him. He can’t play at all but on the top team he is playing a regular shift. Anybody would be good on that team I’m told. Then why him ? If he was just a cheap option he wouldn’t be playing the minutes he’s playing.if they were hiding him he wouldn’t average 17+ mins. I don’t think he is that good and he could lose his job if there is a better option but you corsi etc guys go by your numbers and give no credit if the numbers on some worthless stats aren’t good. Common sense tells you he isn’t playing that bad.
- johnnypie

Ah the old, he's in the NHL he can't be that bad argument mixed in with the coaches do must do everything right argument lol.

I don't know any stats people that say physical play and positional play don't have much importance. That's bananas to even think that.

Just out of curiosity... how often do you watch JJ play?

What's wild to me is that JJ is like a bigger/stronger Mike Matheson in terms of ability/skating. JJ got by on athleticism, and honestly got drafted on it too but you throw him on the ice in the NHL and his IQ is basement level. Matheson's first year I thought he was pretty bad and very similar in style to JJ (minus the pointless hits that leave your partner on an island). When we acquired Matheson, I felt like Matheson was what GMJR touted JJ as when he signed him. This year I think Matheson has evolved his game into using his superior skating to be much better with his gap control and active stick, not to mention back checking after joining a rush.
- j.boyd919

Yeah Matheson's been a real asset to this team this year to the point that I think his contract is pretty even value. Him finally meshing with Marino is real big for us since I think we were gonna clear Petterson this offseason regardless.

Even last year when Matheson wasn't very good for us he still provided way more fun moments that JJ ever did.

Ah the old, he's in the NHL he can't be that bad argument mixed in with the coaches do must do everything right argument lol.

I don't know any stats people that say physical play and positional play don't have much importance. That's bananas to even think that.

Just out of curiosity... how often do you watch JJ play?
- j.boyd919

If someone's argument as to why Jack Johnson isn't as bad as the stats make him seem is because he's sound positionally, they're not worth responding to. Anyone who watches JJ knows he's out of position and behind the net or screening his own goalie constantly. They are the ones that don't watch the game and are just trying to figure out what the analytics people are saying and just argue the opposite for the hell of it.

Yeah Matheson's been a real asset to this team this year to the point that I think his contract is pretty even value. Him finally meshing with Marino is real big for us since I think we were gonna clear Petterson this offseason regardless.

Even last year when Matheson wasn't very good for us he still provided way more fun moments that JJ ever did.
- Victoro311

You didn't like JJ's patented come across the ice for a big hit, while leaving the man he was supposed to be covering wide open to bury the puck on the tendy uncontested because his partner was controlling the gap on the same guy that JJ hit? That wasn't fun for you? That wasn't fun!?

Pretty sure that exact play happened like once a week.

If someone's argument as to why Jack Johnson isn't as bad as the stats make him seem is because he's sound positionally, they're not worth responding to. Anyone who watches JJ knows he's out of position and behind the net or screening his own goalie constantly. They are the ones that don't watch the game and are just trying to figure out what the analytics people are saying and just argue the opposite for the hell of it.
- Victoro311

Haha yep. That was why I asked how often he actually watched.

Do people defend JJ because they feel bad for what his parents did to him? I assume that played a role in GMs continuing to give him contracts after we bought him out, because it was very evident he was no longer an NHL player

Do people defend JJ because they feel bad for what his parents did to him? I assume that played a role in GMs continuing to give him contracts after we bought him out, because it was very evident he was no longer an NHL player
- awtr

I defended him only because I am tired of the we have the worst defenseman in the league narrative. I think it started with Orpik, then Schultz, then Cole, finally Johnson. May have been one or two in between, of course it continues with Beaulieu.

I defended him only because I am tired of the we have the worst defenseman in the league narrative. I think it started with Orpik, then Schultz, then Cole, finally Johnson. May have been one or two in between, of course it continues with Beaulieu.
- Thunderbolt

That’s an over exaggeration. We never argued Orpik was the worst defenseman in the league, it was that when we had to give him his final extension here it was clear he was no longer a top 4 d man and the league had passed him by. He was anchor and over deployed in his role while being paid too much but was still an ok bottom pairing guy. The Schultz stuff was a narrative that carried over from Edmonton. The stats guys were actually on the forefront there of saying if you shelter him he could be very useful. Cole was only bad here for about a half a year when Mike Johnston put him completely out of his element as a top pairing guy. Otherwise he was an awesome #5 here and was paid pretty fairly.

Jack Johnson was legitimately the worst defenseman in the league.

Do people defend JJ because they feel bad for what his parents did to him? I assume that played a role in GMs continuing to give him contracts after we bought him out, because it was very evident he was no longer an NHL player
- awtr

I can't believe after that game, the discussion point is Jack Johnson.

Sounds like Zucker is going to play tomorrow.