This point is not correct. They will not be forced to do a full rebuild. They will continue to operate as this franchise has for it's entirety with the exception of the brief pause during the Hextall years. - MJL
A full rebuild will happen eventually no matter what the franchise wants. Fans aren’t coming back for a wildcard 1st round playoff loss again. The past decade killed that. The team either needs a franchise changing superstar to sell tickets or a Stanley Cup run. Anything besides those two things won’t be enough. The apathy is that big now. - psuhockey
Fans will undoubtedly come back when and if the Flyers become a playoff team again. Especially if we ever get through this pandemic.
A full rebuild will happen eventually no matter what the franchise wants. Fans aren’t coming back for a wildcard 1st round playoff loss again. The past decade killed that. The team either needs a franchise changing superstar to sell tickets or a Stanley Cup run. Anything besides those two things won’t be enough. The apathy is that big now. - psuhockey
Eventually is the key word. It can never be disproven.
I agree with almost everything you post here but I do believe you are wrong about that. Never underestimate the craving for optimism that fuels a fan's heart*. People have tough real lives. They need the elixir of belief. No matter how dire the odds are, people will choose to believe, because it makes them feel good. I myself bought into the Koolaid spring of 2020, against all reasoning. Bring back the hint of playoffs and fans will come, and indeed will come flooding back.
*This leads to fairly limited power of reasoning. You should see that yourself. A few threads back, you carefully led someone here through a set of steps, which led to only 1 conclusion, which he then balked at:
2. In the case of Comcast I disagree - the Flyers are a nit, a rounding error, in their consolidated numbers. If they wanted to do it, they could, relatively pain free as far as Comcast investors are concerned.
3. probably, because I don't think Comcast really cares all that much about the team
4. yes, they may have to do something because they do rather enjoy the little entertainment complex they have going on there and do want the fans to show up in sizeable numbers to pay exorbitant prices for beers and snacks
5. yes - get a "just good enough" team to keep the fans hopeful for "next year." Unless/until there is an ownership group that really cares about winning, this won't change
6. CF, were it up to me I'd be looking for his replacement as we speak; CG, I'm on the fence - not sure what kind of return would be worthwhile; RR, if he goes, fine; if he stays, fine - Scoob
Why are you discussing this? It was declared that no further discussion is needed.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Feb 1 @ 10:30 AM ET
Thanks Bill. Wanted to set a cheerful tenor for today, so am lifting comment from last blog to re-respond to.
There are no more "facts" to be determined/discussed, except amongst the clueless and those who cannot face the female dog slap of logic. The persistent predicament of the club is predetermined.
1. The odds against pursuing any strategy except full rebuild leading to cup success is huge, and a fool's game. (Such fools proliferate here, but that does not change anything).
2. The commercial inclinations and incentives of the owners and nature of fanbase make the above impossible.
3. Summary: likely there will be shades of mediocrity for the indefinite future. Most prospects will be middle of lineup guys.
4. The only silver lining, if you can call it that, is while cynically crafting a strategy of playoff relevance, the franchise has overplayed its hand and ended up with large sub-performing contracts it cannot move, except for like, and thus, is forced to do the full rebuild it avoided doing deliberately. Such as this season.
5. The franchise however will desperately, and I mean desperately, try to avoid #4, for the same reason they tried to avoid #1. As such, in the next few years, prepare for a Bobby Clarke turn of the century paradigm of good-but-not-good-enough-stars trundling through here while disbelievingly smirking at the price they will get.
6. Minor details: CF will stay (e5), Giroux will go (e4), and Risto will stay (e4). - PT21
Regarding # 3 specifically.
Prospects being pigeon holed into mediocre middle six potential is probably a mistake. I think most can agree the Flyers need to do a better job with player development and yes need some “luck”. I would suggest looking at any of the top teams and point out there are instances where by kids come in and develop at higher rates then the so called experts predict. It far from an exact science. Hextall used to always point out that the more picks you have the greater chances you have to hit on one. Some seem to think that if your not drafted in the first round then there’s no shot a becoming a star player. That’s simply not the case. Sure the obvious elite talent can be found at the top end, but here’s a reason they have 7 rounds in a draft.
This point is not correct. They will not be forced to do a full rebuild. They will continue to operate as this franchise has for it's entirety with the exception of the brief pause during the Hextall years. - MJL
Hockey is a gate driven business. The fans will eventually bring about change. After the next failed retool, and it will certainly fail, there will be hardly anyone left that they will have to change course.
Hockey is a gate driven business. The fans will eventually bring about change. After the next failed retool, and it will certainly fail, there will be hardly anyone left that they will have to change course. - psuhockey
Look at the Flyers attendance record throughout their history. Make the playoffs and they will come. Even if they aren't close to being a legitimate contender.
Fans will undoubtedly come back when and if the Flyers become a playoff team again. Especially if we ever get through this pandemic. - MJL
There were significant empty seats the last time the Flyers had playoff home games against the penguins. Do you think the fans are any less apathetic now?
Give it some time. Let the old guard get weaned away. The millennials will not come for playoff hockey. They will come if there is a buzz and they will go away if there isn't.
Once regular season attendance falls to a low threshhold, leaving enough room to rise up during contention years to make up for revenue lost during rebuild years, then we will see change.
Alternatively, a hedge fund guy like Josh Harris can buy the franchise. As soon as I saw the nature of the Kraken owners, I was fairly convinced they would put in a nice rebuild effort. Which seems to be going very well, btw.
There were significant empty seats the last time the Flyers had playoff home games against the penguins. Do you think the fans are any less apathetic now? - psuhockey
I think apathy by fans is temporary. Many will be pleased if next season, they fare better with injuries, make some moves and make the playoffs. The fans will come back as a whole. For me personally, I'm setting the bar higher. I won't stop being a fan and watching the games but I won't be satisfied with being a middle of the pack playoff team and the old get in and you have a chance mantra.
Give it some time. Let the old guard get weaned away. The millennials will not come for playoff hockey. They will come if there is a buzz and they will go away if there isn't.
Once regular season attendance falls to a low threshhold, leaving enough room to rise up during contention years to make up for revenue lost during rebuild years, then we will see change.
Alternatively, a hedge fund guy like Josh Harris can buy the franchise. As soon as I saw the nature of the Kraken owners, I was fairly convinced they would put in a nice rebuild effort. Which seems to be going very well, btw. - PT21
No one is buying the team unless the arena comes with it. Comcast will not sell that arena. Therefore the flyers will not be sold.
Prospects being pigeon holed into mediocre middle six potential is probably a mistake. I think most can agree the Flyers need to do a better job with player development and yes need some “luck”. I would suggest looking at any of the top teams and point out there are instances where by kids come in and develop at higher rates then the so called experts predict. It far from an exact science. Hextall used to always point out that the more picks you have the greater chances you have to hit on one. Some seem to think that if your not drafted in the first round then there’s no shot a becoming a star player. That’s simply not the case. Sure the obvious elite talent can be found at the top end, but here’s a reason they have 7 rounds in a draft. - landros 2
Of course it can happen. It does very occasionally happen. But not that often.
In the Wheeler summary you chatted about 2 days ago, down to the top 13 odd teams, I looked through the prospects of the teams already discussed (From Seattle to us). Teams with sustained playoff success in the past who did not draft high had by and large no top end prospects. Together, that was a bank of 250 odd players: a full year's draft worth and then some.
If you are hoping to buck those odds, then your strategy is essentially "glass has a few drops in it":
Comcast has a net worth, according to Forbes, of 205 billion dollars. The few millions or even 10s of millions that the Flyers might make or lose are barely a blip on their bottom line.
Comcast cares nada about the success of the team. Nor does Dave Scott, his sole purpose is to carry out Comcast’s wishes.
I have zero optimism that this team will ever contend for a Stanley Cup with Comcast as their owner.
I think apathy by fans is temporary. Many will be pleased if next season, they fare better with injuries, make some moves and make the playoffs. The fans will come back as a whole. For me personally, I'm setting the bar higher. I won't stop being a fan and watching the games but I won't be satisfied with being a middle of the pack playoff team and the old get in and you have a chance mantra. - MJL
I disagree. The casual fans are long gone and the Flyers are not even on kids radar anymore. The Sixers have those fans locked up. So the only ones left are the die hards and they for the most part want a full rebuild. The arena is significantly more empty than it was during the last bad season in 2007 and despite what Scott says COVID isn’t the reason. I don’t see Johnny Gaudreau and Nazem Kadri getting these fans to believe that this team is a contender so why would they come back for a veteran laden team to get into the last playoff spot? It’s not like there is progress coming after that. What are you selling them to make them think next year will be any different than the last 10? That’s the problem with prolonged mediocrity. It’s actually harder to shake the apathy that sets in then if the team was just bad and got a potential superstar draft pick to sell the fanbase.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Feb 1 @ 10:48 AM ET
Of course it can happen. It does very occasionally happen. But not that often.
In the Wheeler summary you chatted about 2 days ago, down to the top 13 odd teams, I looked through the prospects of the teams already discussed (From Seattle to us). Teams with sustained playoff success in the past who did not draft high had by and large no top end prospects. Together, that was a bank of 250 odd players: a full year's draft worth and then some.
If you are hoping to buck those odds, then your strategy is essentially "glass has a few drops in it":
- PT21
I wonder what Wheeler said about Nolan Patrick? Actually I know what he said…
2. In the case of Comcast I disagree - the Flyers are a nit, a rounding error, in their consolidated numbers. If they wanted to do it, they could, relatively pain free as far as Comcast investors are concerned.
6. CF, were it up to me I'd be looking for his replacement as we speak; CG, I'm on the fence - not sure what kind of return would be worthwhile; RR, if he goes, fine; if he stays, fine - Scoob
Well, those tens of millions add up. And the losses probably extend to operations outside the Flyers part of Comcast-Spectator. Arena losses from merchandise sales, tv advertising losses, Comcast subscription losses.
Why undertake the rounding error if you don't need to?
Charlie O'Connor said that hiring of Torchetti is a very strong indication that CF stays. I also felt the Presser suggested he stays. As well as the Bobby Clarke venting. And the fact that they have beefed up their personnel, all hired by CF. And the talk about Covid, injuries and so on.
Comcast has a net worth, according to Forbes, of 205 billion dollars. The few millions or even 10s of millions that the Flyers might make or lose are barely a blip on their bottom line.
Comcast cares nada about the success of the team. Nor does Dave Scott, his sole purpose is to carry out Comcast’s wishes.
I have zero optimism that this team will ever contend for a Stanley Cup with Comcast as their owner. - BiggE
I completely buy that Comcast only cares about the business aspects of the situation. I don't believe that Dave Scott doesn't care about the success. He has just been influenced by the wrong people in how to go about trying to win. The team has a budget. How they use those resources is up to Scott and the team execs.
Comcast has a net worth, according to Forbes, of 205 billion dollars. The few millions or even 10s of millions that the Flyers might make or lose are barely a blip on their bottom line.
Comcast cares nada about the success of the team. Nor does Dave Scott, his sole purpose is to carry out Comcast’s wishes.
I have zero optimism that this team will ever contend for a Stanley Cup with Comcast as their owner. - BiggE
There is zero urgency for them to sell. They make a killing by owning the arena. Until/ if ever they decide to get away from the arena then and only then will they sell.
I disagree. The casual fans are long gone and the Flyers are not even on kids radar anymore. The Sixers have those fans locked up. So the only ones left are the die hards and they for the most part want a full rebuild. The arena is significantly more empty than it was during the last bad season in 2007 and despite what Scott says COVID isn’t the reason. I don’t see Johnny Gaudreau and Nazem Kadri getting these fans to believe that this team is a contender so why would they come back for a veteran laden team to get into the last playoff spot? It’s not like there is progress coming after that. What are you selling them to make them think next year will be any different than the last 10? That’s the problem with prolonged mediocrity. It’s actually harder to shake the apathy that sets in then if the team was just bad and got a potential superstar draft pick to sell the fanbase. - psuhockey
Casual fans always come and go. More are created when the team has some success. The diehards will absolutely come back if the team makes it to the playoffs. If you're hoping for some fan induced revolt to change how the team operates. You have set yourself up for disappointment.
