Good enough for what? Cup contention? I disagree strongly.
- PT21

You are entitled to that opinion.

Ratcliffe has no shot at being an NHL player...if you have seen him at all he cant skate. Fits right in . He is a marginal AHL player who has done nothing with Phantoms
- hfc355

Wasn’t he drafted for his skating/size lol. I agree. He’s going to look horrible Saturday

You are entitled to that opinion.
- mickel25

Much of what I say is indeed subjective and a visual personal opinion, and a hypothetical, since the event never happened. But not all of it. There is some data to back it up. Look at the core of champs, and see the early years of their core, when they were not favored to win. Look at Kane in 2008-9 playoffs. Kucherov before the 2018-19 blowout. Look at how they are individually perceived in terms of NHL rankings in their position by others, by Olympic invites, and so on.

Hockey has this blue collar ethos and this socialist financial structure (salary cap/revenue sharing/guaranteed contracts) and also paradoxicaly.. this highly elitist/capitalistic correlation between draft order/projected studs and future success. The talent distribution on winning teams is distributed in very unegalitarian fashion.

Good players with good supporting casts aka deep teams lacking current stars: Devils '12, Rangers '14, Vegas '18, Dallas '20 and so on... might get close but don't smoke the cigar.

Wasn’t he drafted for his skating/size lol. I agree. He’s going to look horrible Saturday
- Just5

Drafted for his size and shot but skating was weak.. unfortunately still weak

1st rounder + a conditional pick if he resigns with the team next year or based on their playoff performance

4th liners have gotten 1sts at the deadline
- Just5

Good enough. Some here would say a 1st roster top 6 fwd..top 2 dman and prospect. Agree could get a 1st

You can’t think of a way to defend it at the moment haha
- ClaudeFather

I don't defend. I look at the information and form an opinion. You're better than this.

The Flyers needed a few more pieces during that time period?

How was Hextall gonna add those pieces with the salary cap?

If via trade, then what valuable players would he have to give up?
- Captain_Ahab

Also add them to do what? Win a playoff series. Some are very shortsighted. Think big picture for change.

Moving Ghost to make room for the Risto trade and the trade itself cost them the 14th overall pick in 2021, the ~37th overall pick in 2022, and then another 2nd in 2023 that will probably be in the 40s.

So Fletcher really does need to start recouping some of the assets he blew in the name of getting better defensively.
- Feanor

Who could call it anything but a success?

I don't consider goals for and allowed at even strength to be advanced, even when adjusted for minutes played, and they certainly do match the eye test.

KY has the worst ES GA/60, and Ristolainen is just behind.

Yandle 3.56
Risto 3.51
Cannauton 3.2
Provorov 3.04
Sanheim 3
York 2.96
Seeler 2.2
Braun 2.19
- Feanor

God those numbers are (frank)ing horrendous, lol. Braun is the only regular who should even show his face in public.

The reality is that the injuries have destroyed this team. I mean, you probably couldn't pick 3 guys out that would deplete this lineup worse. First and second line centers and top defender I'm talking about. The scary part is that this is showing the total lack of organizational depth that I've been harping on for quite sometime now. Dave Scott doesn't know a puck from a freakin basketball! Thanks!

Houston is terrible. Harris County, TX is hell on Earth. Hockey would not thrive there.
- PLindbergh31

# of eyeballs drives TV deals, team values and revenues, tho. So good luck getting Gary to not keep trying to stick a team in every goddamned top media market: Atlanta, Phoenix, Houston, Seattle, etc.

That pushockey guy explained it yesterday. The players we believed to be our core shone later because they were supplementary non-core players in those other teams. Williams, Sharp, Richards, Carter ....their sparkle was augmented by the reflected shine of brighter diamonds.

My central objection is the belief that we were set in the core, and needed guys like JVR (Hextall) and Hayes (Fletcher) to be a contending team. I disagree.
- PT21

Your comments here that those players were supplementary non-core players is just ignorant of the facts. Everyone of those player you list were key players on Cup teams. Not supplementary.

To me having a good team top to bottom makes a big difference. Imagine if we still had Sharp and Williams on that 2010 team?

During the Giroux years we had top players that were good enough. We just had nothing at the bottom end of the lineup to complete against good teams in the playoffs.
- mickel25

He's fixated on elite players. He has never realized that what makes a team élite, is not just elite players but a strong roster throughout.

If anyone wants to say that Giroux, Voracek, Couturier were not a good enough core to win a Cup, they're probably right with the team they had around them. However there is no doubt that they were good enough to be part of a cup winning core.

The reality is that the injuries have destroyed this team. I mean, you probably couldn't pick 3 guys out that would deplete this lineup worse. First and second line centers and top defender I'm talking about. The scary part is that this is showing the total lack of organizational depth that I've been harping on for quite sometime now. Dave Scott doesn't know a puck from a freakin basketball! Thanks!
- Phillywhiteout

Yup. How many times have the pens treaded water throughout Crosby, Malkin, and let’s go injuries many times at the same time.

Yup. How many times have the pens treaded water throughout Crosby, Malkin, and let’s go injuries many times at the same time.
- Just5

Yep, I hate the Pens, but they have handled the injury bug much better than the Flyers. Part of it is probably coaching and a system that everyone buys into.

The reality is that the injuries have destroyed this team. I mean, you probably couldn't pick 3 guys out that would deplete this lineup worse. First and second line centers and top defender I'm talking about. The scary part is that this is showing the total lack of organizational depth that I've been harping on for quite sometime now. Dave Scott doesn't know a puck from a freakin basketball! Thanks!
- Phillywhiteout

A healthy Couts they miss...Hayes is nothing more then a 3C and Ellis is a good not great defenseman. Good teams can handle that

well evander kane sure is lucky less market for giroux now

Panthers having a great season, Vegas in town, and there’s a bunch of empty seats in the building in a state where Covid doesn’t matter. Let’s focus on some cities that need hockey, get the NHL out of Arizona

well evander kane sure is lucky less market for giroux now
- 2Real

Doubt many players were willing to go to the Canadian teams anyways. Especially G with a Movement clause

He's fixated on elite players. He has never realized that what makes a team élite, is not just elite players but a strong roster throughout.

If anyone wants to say that Giroux, Voracek, Couturier were not a good enough core to win a Cup, they're probably right with the team they had around them. However there is no doubt that they were good enough to be part of a cup winning core.
- MJL

you know i like to be spiteful and mock that time carchidi or whoever it was said the mantle of best player in the world was passed from crosby to giroux as the result of one shift, but i think sometimes people forget that there was a period where giroux was probably a top 10 to 12 forward in the game. That core could have gotten pretty close but they would have needed a good bit around them. A stud D man, better depth throughout, better goaltending etc.

Hes obviously not that guy anymore now, and i definitely would side more with the reasoning that it helps to have high picks to get front line players. I get that im setting myself up for the retort that giroux's own drafting shows that you dont need to pick high to get players like that, but i think he is closer to the exception to the rule.

i extrapolated on your model

- 2Real

I wouldn’t mind the team sucking as long as there was some excitement for the future. There’s not one player in the flyers system I’m excited about and I think that’s where most fans frustrations come in

This organization is in horrible hands. I can’t imagine 2 worst passionless people running a organization. I can now see that the on ice product is a direct reflection of these 2 (Scott and Fletcher). No emotion, no passion , no urgency, only fake superficial attempts at improving.

As a fan of this team since 1969-70 I can not remember a worst lifeless team. There may have other bad teams but I can’t remember being this disheartened and feeling this current group. listless top to bottom, I think even Fletcher uses the word “ malaise” to describe the team.
These 2 leading the way in the malaise department is very fitting.
May God bless this franchise and I hope Mr Ed Snyder forgives them for destroying his fine work.

you know i like to be spiteful and mock that time carchidi or whoever it was said the mantle of best player in the world was passed from crosby to giroux as the result of one shift, but i think sometimes people forget that there was a period where giroux was probably a top 10 to 12 forward in the game. That core could have gotten pretty close but they would have needed a good bit around them. A stud D man, better depth throughout, better goaltending etc.

Hes obviously not that guy anymore now, and i definitely would side more with the reasoning that it helps to have high picks to get front line players. I get that im setting myself up for the retort that giroux's own drafting shows that you dont need to pick high to get players like that, but i think he is closer to the exception to the rule.
- stayinthefnnet

I don't think he is closer to the exception than the rule. He is an exception. However, I could post a pretty large list of current and recent players who are that exception. So there's two things here. Giroux was unquestionably an elite player for a time and a player good enough to be a top player and part of a championship core. He still is, as is Couturier. Although I wouldn't label either elite now.
The other is that the Flyers have had high picks. They had a 2nd overall and a 7th overall I believe where they picked Provorov. The didn't get an elite player with either pick although Provorov is a pretty good player. So they've had their chances. They might get another chance at a high pick after this season. Have to cash in. Have to use your picks also to have a better chance at getting lucky later in the draft. What are the Flyers going to do? Seems like they're going to double down on trying to win now. Not the smart thing in my opinion. As someone else pointed out, they gave up a 2nd to create the cap space and a 1st , 2nd and a player for Ristolanen. Not very smart in my opinion.

you know i like to be spiteful and mock that time carchidi or whoever it was said the mantle of best player in the world was passed from crosby to giroux as the result of one shift, but i think sometimes people forget that there was a period where giroux was probably a top 10 to 12 forward in the game. That core could have gotten pretty close but they would have needed a good bit around them. A stud D man, better depth throughout, better goaltending etc.

Hes obviously not that guy anymore now, and i definitely would side more with the reasoning that it helps to have high picks to get front line players. I get that im setting myself up for the retort that giroux's own drafting shows that you dont need to pick high to get players like that, but i think he is closer to the exception to the rule.
- stayinthefnnet

I recall Peter Laviolette said that.

Possibly even higher than 10-12 for Roo. Problem is, teams that won the cup had players as high if not higher. Look at Giroux's most successful years in playoffs before that ridiculous 12 Pens series. Where did he play? 2nd/3rd line, as supplementary scorer.

Look at Mike Richard's ice time in 2012 playoffs ( incl special teams). 3rd among forwards (after Kopitar and Brown). Where was it in playoffs for our 09-10 run? 1st.

Who was our the single most important player for the 2009-10 run? A HOFer. I put Kimmo, Richards, Carter et al in the same category: good but not great enough to win.

Look where Williams ended up? On Staal's wing. How about Sharp? With Kane, Hossa, Toews. How important was Schenn in 2018 Blues? Very important but not the most. Centering the first line, not a single Conn Smythe vote on any ballot.

These are very subjective, very hypothetical assessments, but my personal take is that if we had a great supporting cast, we would likely have topped out as deep playoff threats but not gotten to promised land. A la Sharks. Indeed, in the past 20 years, I have never seen a Flyers team that when I watched them play, looked to me to be among the top 3 favorites for the cup. Speed and skill in particular were always a perpetual problem, along with goalie play ofc and fragile defense.

The much touted Hockey News faves for the 2009-10 cup I hear a lot about here (from Bill and Black Hand), but I never see substantiation of their claims. Indeed, note that even before Razor went down, I see them ranked by THN 4th in conference for the season (maybe they recall a different poll at a different time...)

https://thehockeynews.com...egular-season-predictions