The Flyers since Snider died have about the same record as they did in the last five seasons of his ownership. Doesn't seem like much of a turning point to me.

Really, since the salary cap started in 2005 they have had one great playoff run and that was a season where they had the 18th= best regular season record and were lucky just to make the playoffs.
- Feanor

The Flyers made the ECF in 2008; one season after the worst year in franchise history. They wouldn't have beaten the Penguins in all likelihood regardless of both Timonen (blood clot) and Coburn being lost but it'd been a tougher series.

As for 2009-10, the Flyers entered the season as THN's pick to win the Cup. They underachieved in the regular season, but once they got in on the final day, they gelled. The 2010-11 regular season was more like what the team was capable of in RS play a year earlier, just couldn't pull it together consistently. Thankfully, they gelled at the right time in 2010. Unfortunately, they came apart in 2011 playoffs despite getting past Buffalo.

Ok, Penguins fan. Here's a little history lesson.

1) Jay Snider was running the team in the late 80s to early 90s. Ed was focused primarily on a new arena project.

2) Forsberg, whom the Flyers went WAY off the board to draft in 1991, would have been kept had he be ready to come over to North America in 1992-93. He ended up not coming over until 1994-95.

3) Forsberg was not part of the Lindros trade package until near the very end of the process. Quebec kept demanding Brind'Amour, who the Flyers considered untouchable. If Brind'Amour had been included, the European center prospect who'd have gone along to Quebec would have been Slava Butsayev. The Flyers ultimately sent Mike Ricci (in lieu of Brind'Amour) and Forsberg (more highly regarded by that point than Butsayev, who was considered a decent prospect in his own right). So, basically, the decision came down to Philly having Lindros and Brind'Amour right away OR having only Lindros and Ricci and waiting at least one (and it turned out to be two) more seasons for Forsberg to come over.

Read Full Spectrum, copyright, 1996 for the full story.

4) At the time Lindros played his final game as a Flyer, he was fifth ALL-TIME in the NHL in points per game. He was injured a lot. There was off-ice drama. The team didn't win a Cup. But he was every bit the franchise player he was touted to be. Unfortunately, the repeated concussions diminished him as a player progressively post-Philly.

5) The Flyers made out fine in the Primeau for Brind'Amour trade. It was unfortunate that, post 2004, Primeau had his own post-concussion issues that ended his career early while Roddy kept on ticking in Carolina.

6) Justin Williams was injury plagued in his early years in Philly but the real reason the trade for Markov was made was that the Flyers were quite deep at forward and quite shallow on D. Markov was a warrior for the team -- especially with the blueline riddled with injures -- as it got within a 2-1 Game 7 loss to Tampa in the 2004 ECF.

Unfortunately, then came the lockout, and Markov was a salary cap casualty. In the long run, it was a bad trade. In the short term, it got a Cup caliber Flyers team to within a win of the Cup Final (where they'd have stood a real good chance against Calgary).

7) The Flyers made out fine with the Carter (and Richards) trades. It was Columbus that got hosed. The Flyers got the first round pick they used on Sean Couturier, a young Jakub Voracek and a third-rounder (Nick Cousins) from it. The Blue Jackets got a few months of a sulking Carter from it and then they got Jack Johnson in exchange for Carter.

8) See "Flyers at 50" for the full Bryz saga and the eventual trade (under duress) of Bobrovsky. That is one bad decision that legitimately can be pinned on Ed Snider. For the record, both Paul Holmgren and goalie coach Jeff Reese were in favor of keeping Bobrovsky as the starter. After the debacle of the 2010 Cup Final and goalie carousel in 2011 playoffs, Snider demanded a proven solution. Bobrovsky was a 2nd year pro. Bryzgalov was a year removed from being a Vezina finalist. So there was a logic to it but it didn't work out, clearly.

9) Last but not least, let's not forget that Ed Snider TWICE had the ability to drive the Penguins out of business or to relocation.

* Snider's Spectacor was the bankrupt (for the second time) Penguins' landlord at the Igloo and operated the arena. Spectacor loaned the Penguins money to keep the team afloat and the Penguins built up debt:http://hockeynut.com/9899/penguins1098.html.

Snider could have called in the debts and forced Baldwin's Penguins to fold or relocate. It wouldn't have been smart business to do so, but he could have had he so desired.

* In 2004, with the lockout in force and NHL ownership solidarity on a salary cap in danger of breaking -- which would have driven the Penguins and Edmonton out of business. Gary Bettman pleaded with Snider (whose Flyers benefitted from the lack of a salary cap) to stay on board for the good of the league. He did, and the NHL owners held the line.

Additionally, let us not forget that the Wells Fargo Center was privately funded by Snider. What's now PPG Paints Arena was made possible by the PA taxpayers: https://www.broadstreetho...pennsylvania-taxes-flyers

Last but not least, the Flyers post 1987 reached two Cup Finals and four additional conference finals within Ed Snider's lifetime. It's been since his passing that the organization has seemingly lost its way.
- bmeltzer

Bill, a compelling and good response. In my defense, I never challenged that Snider did do a lot and my post did not reject that. It is the lack of any even-keeled look at his legacy by some on this board that I don't like. But I agree that Snider did a lot of good things for the team and the league and the penguins.

Some counterpoints: Ed appointed Jay. There were abundant warning signs about Lindros, all of which turned out to be true. As for Forsberg, saying we got him the way we did does not make the decision to trade him any better. The guy was the real deal and he was held out until the end because people knew it. Defending including him in the trade on that basis is like defending the Ryne Sandberg trade because he only got added to the deal at the end of the Bowa for DeJesus swap. It does not make it any better. I guess there is nothing else to defend the Bryzgalov trade but the guy was a well known kook. That decision has not aged well and was part of the strucutural problem in the 2010s.
For all of these deals we "won," the players who left won cups and played their way into HOF status. Again, I recognize that Snider did a lot for the organization and the league but not looking at the complete picture distorts perceptions of where we are now.

The Flyers since Snider died have about the same record as they did in the last five seasons of his ownership. Doesn't seem like much of a turning point to me.

Really, since the salary cap started in 2005 they have had one great playoff run and that was a season where they had the 18th= best regular season record and were lucky just to make the playoffs.
- Feanor

Was it lucky or were they a good team that peaked at the right time? Many of mentioned before that pre season that year they were pegged as a very good team. The roster by name points to that as well. I’d say they were unlucky in running into the best team of the Hawks championship run if anything.

The Flyers made the ECF in 2008; one season after the worst year in franchise history. They wouldn't have beaten the Penguins in all likelihood regardless of both Timonen (blood clot) and Coburn being lost but it'd been a tougher series.

As for 2009-10, the Flyers entered the season as THN's pick to win the Cup. They underachieved in the regular season, but once they got in on the final day, they gelled. The 2010-11 regular season was more like what the team was capable of in RS play a year earlier, just couldn't pull it together consistently. Thankfully, they gelled at the right time in 2010. Unfortunately, they came apart in 2011 playoffs despite getting past Buffalo.
- bmeltzer

Boom, roasted

The Flyers made the ECF in 2008; one season after the worst year in franchise history. They wouldn't have beaten the Penguins in all likelihood regardless of both Timonen (blood clot) and Coburn being lost but it'd been a tougher series.

As for 2009-10, the Flyers entered the season as THN's pick to win the Cup. They underachieved in the regular season, but once they got in on the final day, they gelled. The 2010-11 regular season was more like what the team was capable of in RS play a year earlier, just couldn't pull it together consistently. Thankfully, they gelled at the right time in 2010. Unfortunately, they came apart in 2011 playoffs despite getting past Buffalo.
- bmeltzer

That season really drags down that record as well.

The team missing two of their top 4 D has made an offer for a high priced forward? I know it’s Friedman but that doesn’t add up
- ClaudeFather

they are really after Braun, CC is the add in....

All that really matters for fans is Big Brother 5 Little Brother 2.

Was it lucky or were they a good team that peaked at the right time? Many of mentioned before that pre season that year they were pegged as a very good team. The roster by name points to that as well. I’d say they were unlucky in running into the best team of the Hawks championship run if anything.
- ClaudeFather

There are a lot of interesting aspects to that series. My main point is that up until 87, we had a 15 year run where we were consistently a top 1 or 2 team. If there was video review when we were in the SC with the Isles, we would not have lost to a clearly offside goal and may have won a 3rd. Since 1987, we have 2 SCF appearances and won a total of 2 games. The only consistent thing over that time is our inconsistency.

All that really matters for fans is Big Brother 5 Little Brother 2.
- hello it's me 2050

For all the folks who say tanking doesn’t work, the Penguins are a great example of it working. What did they pick #1 #1 #2 and get fleury Crosby and Malkin. Not sure of the exact order but you get it.

For all the folks who say tanking doesn’t work, the Penguins are a great example of it working. What did they pick #1 #1 #2 and get fleury Crosby and Malkin. Not sure of the exact order but you get it.
- ClaudeFather

There are diff phases to tanking. IMO I do not think some realize this at all.

There are Examples of it works and examples it does not work.

Was it lucky or were they a good team that peaked at the right time?
- ClaudeFather

They had to win a shootout in game 82 to qualify.

There are diff phases to tanking. IMO I do not think some realize this at all.

There are Examples of it works and examples it does not work.
- hello it's me 2050

There’s no reason we shouldn’t try and sell a bunch of players at the deadline, not add much in the off-season barring something that makes sense, and finish in the bottom 5 for a couple years.

They had to win a shootout in game 82 to qualify.
- Feanor

Ok, what about the other 81 games, were they lucky or unlucky ?

Yandle came from outside the organization. He's -22.
- Feanor

& it is widely agreed that Yandle is cooked. Lets compare apples to apples. Top 6 forwards to top 6 forwards. Not top 6 forwards to an nhl/ahl tweener. Good try tho

Thanks Bob Rotruck for this explanation:
“Phantoms essentially had just 3 lines in Sunday game. Garrett Wilson injured during game and Rubtsov scratched at warmups.
So Bunnaman and Sandin played a lot of minutes Sat and Sun at Charlotte. Both will be out of lineup for Philly tonight to avoid playing 3rd game in 3 days.”

https://twitter.com/bobro.../1485673955864334339?s=21

I didn’t go to the game so…at least it makes sense.

Ok, what about the other 81 games, were they lucky or unlucky ?
- ClaudeFather

Two teams with the same amount of points as the 09-10 Flyers didn't make the playoffs that season. Do their fans talk about how great those teams were?

& it is widely agreed that Yandle is cooked. Lets compare apples to apples. Top 6 forwards to top 6 forwards. Not top 6 forwards to an nhl/ahl tweener. Good try tho
- Fopa21

Your try to blame the captain for his GM assembling a poor roster wasn't good at all.


It was Fletcher, not Giroux, who went out and got top 6 forward Hayes and and top 4 dman Ristolainen. They have the worst +/- on the team aside from KY and JVR.

There’s no reason we shouldn’t try and sell a bunch of players at the deadline, not add much in the off-season barring something that makes sense, and finish in the bottom 5 for a couple years.
- ClaudeFather

No argument here, we both know that is not the route they will take.

I do not think they can trade much at the deadline outside of UFA. After the season books open up

Thanks Bob Rotruck for this explanation:
“Phantoms essentially had just 3 lines in Sunday game. Garrett Wilson injured during game and Rubtsov scratched at warmups.
So Bunnaman and Sandin played a lot of minutes Sat and Sun at Charlotte. Both will be out of lineup for Philly tonight to avoid playing 3rd game in 3 days.”

https://twitter.com/bobro.../1485673955864334339?s=21

I didn’t go to the game so…at least it makes sense.
- NC Flyers Fan

The German an AHL scratch...

For all the folks who say tanking doesn’t work, the Penguins are a great example of it working. What did they pick #1 #1 #2 and get fleury Crosby and Malkin. Not sure of the exact order but you get it.
- ClaudeFather

I used to be staunch anti pen tank bankruptcy/ Flyers success and honor defender. After Crosbys third Cup, all that went out the window and i say fu k it

There are a lot of interesting aspects to that series. My main point is that up until 87, we had a 15 year run where we were consistently a top 1 or 2 team. If there was video review when we were in the SC with the Isles, we would not have lost to a clearly offside goal and may have won a 3rd. Since 1987, we have 2 SCF appearances and won a total of 2 games. The only consistent thing over that time is our inconsistency.
- iamscore2day

I also have their glory days pretty much ending in 1987.

Six finals in, what 14 seasons, consistently near the top of the league in points.

Granted, that was back when there was a reasonable number of teams in the league, before the watering down, the salary cap and all the gimmicks.

Before the league became a joke.

The German an AHL scratch...
- hello it's me 2050

Sounds like he might be nicked up.

The German an AHL scratch...
- hello it's me 2050

Big

I figured some would see that.

Well said. Clarke trashing Hextall for picking Patrick is hilarious when you look at Bobby's drafting record. He didn't even want Giroux in 2006, he wanted Trevor Lewis.
- Feanor

hE LisTeNEd tO HIs sCoUTs!!!!!1

Sounds like he might be nicked up.
- iamscore2day

The list of who is not is shorter.