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Forums :: Blog World :: Theo Fox: Jaws of Defeat
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StLBravesFan
Season Ticket Holder
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 07.03.2011

Nov 30 @ 9:45 AM ET
Power's article is titled "The Blackhawks need to hire a permanent hockey president and GM sooner rather than later." He does not name even a single possible prez of the hockey side by name but makes a point, as does his league source, along with lotsa Hawk fans, that the prez needs to be named first and soon so he can evaluate the organIzation before the offseason. A bit of the article.


"One of Bowman’s biggest faults was never having a true hockey direction after the Blackhawks’ Stanley Cup window began closing. He bounced between wanting to win and wanting to rebuild, and it left the Blackhawks in constant mediocrity and with little hope for the future. The Blackhawks’ next president and/or general manager needs to choose a path and stick to it.

If Wirtz trusts Davidson to choose that path, he should promote Davidson to permanent general manager sooner than later. If Wirtz envisions someone being above Davidson in the hierarchy, he probably needs to find that person in the next few months. That would allow the new president of hockey operations to make their own decision on whether Davidson is the right person for the job or undergo a general manager search. It’s not an ideal situation for a president to be hired and told who their next in command is. Hiring a president in near future would also allow that person to have a say in decisions at the trade deadline and everything else going forward. Again, it probably isn’t fair for a new president to come in and be saddled with too many hockey decisions by other people.

“You might hire a team president who doesn’t know Kyle Davidson well and he’s going to be their general manager,” a league source said. “Like, how does that even work? You got to go all the way. You have to hire a president of hockey ops first, if that’s what you’re going to do. You hire the president by Jan. 1. They make their evaluations. Their GM is in place by May 1, so they have time to lead up to the draft and free agency.

“Maybe that person is Kyle Davidson. Or you can say Kyle Davidson should get a look, but he shouldn’t be just forced upon the next president. Regardless of who it is, you need to give the president and the general manager some runway to evaluate and see exactly what needs to change. They need a clear and collective vision. Are they going to make a change in the amateur scouting? Other departments? They have to assess the market and look at trades. They need time.”

- Mr Ricochet


My anecdotal belief (meaning without any evidence whatsoever, except some logical thought) is that sometime last spring / summer, they looked at the cupboard, saw it was bare, decided collectively (meaning Bowman and Wirtz pere et fils) that the re-build would have to re-start from scratch, and that it was time to bring in some mostly still young veterans to get a jump on it.

Souring on Boqvist, they saw no other potential 1D or even 2D in the system, a lack of top-six producers…saw that drafting new ones wouldn’t bear fruit for 5 or 6 seasons….saw Toews coming back, Kubalik becoming a 30-goal scorer (both in doubt now), Dach coming back with promise (still unfulfilled), Kane still Kane, AdB developing into a star…let’s bring in a top defenseman and a shut-down defenseman (both young enough to be productive for several years) and a goalie who can help immediately as well as give Lankinen and those in the system time to grow.

Should have worked better than it has…except that of the young players remaining, only an outlier (Hagel) had been more than just “ok as a fill-in”.
HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Sick Bay, MI
Joined: 02.22.2012

Nov 30 @ 9:45 AM ET
Pittsburgh, Boston only has one but they've done a good job reloading - they've been perpetually very good but still in the mix. The Washington Capitols have been in the playoffs most of the last 40 years.

Tampa Bay has done a decent job remaining competitive since their first Cup with a few luls between runs which is understandable.

Well run organizations find the right players and are able to move things around to stay competitive and take advantage of their down years.

- fattybeef


Don't disagree but it doesn't exactly factor winning into the equation. I believe PGH had already ponied up for Sid and Geno prior to them winning two more Cups.

Both them and the Bruins were only paying for one Cup won while the Hawks were paying the Wonder Twins after two Cups in the bank, along with Seabs coming due shortly thereafter.

TBL may have remained competitive but didn't get to another Cup til 2015 and was able to resign a lot of those guys for less $$$ because they didn't win that Cup.

I know Paul mentioned being in favor of offloading Core players in 2016 while still at the height of their trade value which in hindsight would have been the way to go. How many casual fans let alone diehards would have been all on board breaking up the band shortly after winning the 3rd Cup?

fattybeef
Joined: 05.04.2010

Nov 30 @ 10:02 AM ET
Who would some examples be of an experienced guy to be Pres of Hockey Ops (that is actually available)? It makes sense to me, but I can't put my finger on a guy who would be a good fit.
- Chunk


Jeff Gorton probably would have been a good idea.

I'd rather see them build from the ground up with a new group. They've already been bad the last 5 years. They're probably going to be bad for at least the next two.

May as well get a fresh voice in and try to get some positive change and retool that whole department from scouting all the way up to the top of hockey ops.

Kevin Weekes would be a good choice or Meghan Chayka if she's interested.

Definitely not Edzo.
fattybeef
Joined: 05.04.2010

Nov 30 @ 10:13 AM ET
Don't disagree but it doesn't exactly factor winning into the equation. I believe PGH had already ponied up for Sid and Geno prior to them winning two more Cups.

Both them and the Bruins were only paying for one Cup won while the Hawks were paying the Wonder Twins after two Cups in the bank, along with Seabs coming due shortly thereafter.

TBL may have remained competitive but didn't get to another Cup til 2015 and was able to resign a lot of those guys for less $$$ because they didn't win that Cup.

I know Paul mentioned being in favor of offloading Core players in 2016 while still at the height of their trade value which in hindsight would have been the way to go. How many casual fans let alone diehards would have been all on board breaking up the band shortly after winning the 3rd Cup?

- HawkintheD


Pitt would be a like for like comparison so it can be done and they've been in the mix longer since Crosby and Gino came into the league before Toews and Kane.

The Lightning's first Cup win with Torts had a much different team from the one that went to the finals and lost to the Hawks and then won back to back but that team being in the playoffs - but in the 6 years between there was at least one conference final run. They got back into it after unloading their "core" veterans.

My expectation for a "well run" organization would be ok fine the run happened but within 5 years they should be reloaded enough to be competitive again and that just isn't the case with this Hawks group.

The hawks are still on the down swing when they should be trending up at this point and quite frankly there isn't a lot to look forward to aside from the German kid that just got injured in a collision that did not look good.
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 30 @ 10:17 AM ET
Nice,, hahaha, and thank you for that
- BetweenTheDots

I’ve agreed and disagreed with every single poster on here. Some posters try to explain their position like adults and I’m open to understand their position and in some cases they have changed my mind. And some posters get their shorts in a knot and don’t want to expound their point and just reply the same point. Then we have the pouty children who can’t, or are unable, to debate and hurl petty insults instead. It’s funny, but these posters are the most sensitive ones and cry when an insult is redirected back their way. Pdx sure didn’t like being called honey after her homophobic slur all because I had the audacity to disagree with her. Too bad because she brings up some well thought out points and I thought it would be interesting to discuss them, I was wrong. But at least pdx has some interesting posts.
paulr
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: YYZ
Joined: 06.26.2011

Nov 30 @ 10:38 AM ET
Jeff Gorton probably would have been a good idea.

I'd rather see them build from the ground up with a new group. They've already been bad the last 5 years. They're probably going to be bad for at least the next two.

May as well get a fresh voice in and try to get some positive change and retool that whole department from scouting all the way up to the top of hockey ops.

Kevin Weekes would be a good choice or Meghan Chayka if she's interested.

Definitely not Edzo.

- fattybeef

What have Weekes or Chayka done to make them good choices?
BetweenTheDots
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 06.13.2015

Nov 30 @ 10:58 AM ET
I’ve agreed and disagreed with every single poster on here. Some posters try to explain their position like adults and I’m open to understand their position and in some cases they have changed my mind. And some posters get their shorts in a knot and don’t want to expound their point and just reply the same point. Then we have the pouty children who can’t, or are unable, to debate and hurl petty insults instead. It’s funny, but these posters are the most sensitive ones and cry when an insult is redirected back their way. Pdx sure didn’t like being called honey after her homophobic slur all because I had the audacity to disagree with her. Too bad because she brings up some well thought out points and I thought it would be interesting to discuss them, I was wrong. But at least pdx has some interesting posts.
- paulr


I'm surprised you still post here since you believe you are superior to everyone else. It must be extremely frustrating, keep on trying to teach and inform us. You're so smart. And so adult

Maybe when/if Theo moves on they ask you to write the blog.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 30 @ 11:12 AM ET
I'm surprised you still post here since you believe you are superior to everyone else. It must be extremely frustrating, keep on trying to teach and inform us. You're so smart. And so adult

Maybe when/if Theo moves on they ask you to write the blog.

- BetweenTheDots



Pot, meet kettle.

pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:12 AM ET
Nothing like a good homophobic joke in the morning, eh?

Did your girlfriend do exactly what you asked?

- mohel


What did I miss? You and Paul have been calling each other boyfriend for the last few weeks...that's where I was pulling it from

Not an ounce of me intended it as a slur, but I can see how it comes across that way. I apologize.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 30 @ 11:18 AM ET
What did I miss? You and Paul have been calling each other boyfriend for the last few weeks
- pdx2ord


Dots has called us boyfriends in a derogatory fashion for quite awhile now. Apparently he believes that being gay is a negative thing to be used to impugn others. You seem to have joined in, which is why I responded with "honey".



pdx2ord
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 09.02.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:23 AM ET
Dots has called us boyfriends in a derogatory fashion for quite awhile now. Apparently he believes that being gay is a negative thing to be used to impugn others. You seem to have joined in, which is why I responded with "honey".
- mohel


Oh OK..I am sorry to both you and Paulr and understand the clapback.

Truly, truly not what I intended, and it will bother me for a long time that I did it and it had that effect.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Nov 30 @ 11:26 AM ET
My anecdotal belief (meaning without any evidence whatsoever, except some logical thought) is that sometime last spring / summer, they looked at the cupboard, saw it was bare, decided collectively (meaning Bowman and Wirtz pere et fils) that the re-build would have to re-start from scratch, and that it was time to bring in some mostly still young veterans to get a jump on it.

Souring on Boqvist, they saw no other potential 1D or even 2D in the system, a lack of top-six producers…saw that drafting new ones wouldn’t bear fruit for 5 or 6 seasons….saw Toews coming back, Kubalik becoming a 30-goal scorer (both in doubt now), Dach coming back with promise (still unfulfilled), Kane still Kane, AdB developing into a star…let’s bring in a top defenseman and a shut-down defenseman (both young enough to be productive for several years) and a goalie who can help immediately as well as give Lankinen and those in the system time to grow.

Should have worked better than it has…except that of the young players remaining, only an outlier (Hagel) had been more than just “ok as a fill-in”.

- StLBravesFan


The whole post is reasonable, I could see the Hawk's logic in the scenario. And throughout the changing plans starting in 2016 they seemed reasonable too but the results speak for themselves. As you post, should have worked better.

I'd also add the we have a window with Kane and Toews with the pull of those results showing that line of thought is not working so we rebuild on the fly becomes what has been an unsolvable riddle the last 5 yrs.

This is why I see it as imperative to hire decision makers from outside the organIzation.
fattybeef
Joined: 05.04.2010

Nov 30 @ 11:28 AM ET
What have Weekes or Chayka done to make them good choices?
- paulr


That's kind of the point. People who are well thought of as being bright hockey minds but haven't been anchored to an organization or come up through an organization knowing only that.

A fresh perspective at this point would be better than a retread IMO.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:29 AM ET
What have Weekes or Chayka done to make them good choices?
- paulr


Chayka is a data analytics entrepreneur (she's at least been around hockey for a while):
Career[edit]
She founded the analytics company Sathletes in the late 2000s with Neil Lane, after filming her brother's matches in the Ontario Junior Hockey League in order to help him improve his performance.[3] The company grew quickly, with the Vancouver Canucks becoming the first NHL team to hire their services in 2012.[4]

The company provided analysis for CBC at the 2018 Winter Olympics.[5]

She was named Ontario Chamber of Commerce's Top Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2018.[6] In 2019, she was granted the George Brown College's The 5 to Watch Sports Business Executive award and was named to The Hockey News' Top 100 People of Power and Influence.[7]

She presented a speech at the 2020 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference.[8]

She has supported the growth of women's hockey, providing analysis for women's university hockey and announcing a landmark partnership with the National Women's Hockey League for the 2020–21 NWHL season.[9]

If you ever listen to Weekes talk hockey in long format (not just 2-3 minute segments), he is both articulate and intricate regarding theory and player types.

I'm honestly on the fence regarding getting a longstanding "hockey guy" or bringing in new blood. If you can clearly present your vision, the road to get there and at least show examples of how/where it has been successful I think that is just as valid as a guy who has been in the league for years.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 30 @ 11:29 AM ET
Oh OK..I am sorry to both you and Paulr and understand the clapback.

Truly, truly not what I intended, and it will bother me for a long time that it had that effect.

- pdx2ord


No worries. Accidents happen. All I ask is that you not let it bother you!

That said, can we resume our normal disagreeable interactions?

Note to Dots, that is how you handle a misstatement. When you don't own it for months, it starts to look like you meant it.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:32 AM ET
And the biggest "no poop" of all time goes to:

Lukas Reichel is in concussion protocol and won’t play for the IceHogs tomorrow vs. Milwaukee. No timeline given.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Nov 30 @ 11:33 AM ET
Then you and I are the same. I never cared enough to really follow which execs are worth their salt and which ones just get by. Obviously, I've paid attention to Stan since he headed the team I follow.

It's not like the Hawks don't still have a number of guys around the organization who know hockey. It will just come down to how they want to structure the whole thing.

- Chunk


I do follow GM's and what their results are to an extent but above them, hockey ops guys, is much harder and less reported on. The behind the curtain guys.

An example I guess would be the Hawks themselves. Who wanted to rebuild and who didn't and wanted another shot at a cup with Kane and Toews? We just don't know so following what a hockey ops prez is doing/has done in SJ, NJ, TB, MN is hard to do.
fattybeef
Joined: 05.04.2010

Nov 30 @ 11:33 AM ET
Chayka is a data analytics entrepreneur (she's at least been around hockey for a while):
Career

- Chunk[edit]
She founded the analytics company Sathletes in the late 2000s with Neil Lane, after filming her brother's matches in the Ontario Junior Hockey League in order to help him improve his performance.[3] The company grew quickly, with the Vancouver Canucks becoming the first NHL team to hire their services in 2012.[4]

The company provided analysis for CBC at the 2018 Winter Olympics.[5]

She was named Ontario Chamber of Commerce's Top Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2018.[6] In 2019, she was granted the George Brown College's The 5 to Watch Sports Business Executive award and was named to The Hockey News' Top 100 People of Power and Influence.[7]

She presented a speech at the 2020 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference.[8]

She has supported the growth of women's hockey, providing analysis for women's university hockey and announcing a landmark partnership with the National Women's Hockey League for the 2020–21 NWHL season.[9]

If you ever listen to Weekes talk hockey in long format (not just 2-3 minute segments), he is both articulate and intricate regarding theory and player types.

I'm honestly on the fence regarding getting a longstanding "hockey guy" or bringing in new blood. If you can clearly present your vision, the road to get there and at least show examples of how/where it has been successful I think that is just as valid as a guy who has been in the league for years.


They're in a state right now where taking a swing on someone new is a good idea. Especially since they need to rebuild that part of the organization anyway.

If they were a competitive team and they just needed to keep the ship going then you could argue someone with a track record in that position would be better but at this point they don't lose anything by starting from scratch.

The people who scout Europe can stay but the US and Canada based scouting as well as their pro scouting needs a complete over haul as well and someone with a fresh perspective leading that group would be fun. Gotta get excited about something.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 30 @ 11:33 AM ET
Oh OK..I am sorry to both you and Paulr and understand the clapback.

Truly, truly not what I intended, and it will bother me for a long time that I did it and it had that effect.

- pdx2ord


In addition, I apologize for the honey comeback.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:37 AM ET
Pitt would be a like for like comparison so it can be done and they've been in the mix longer since Crosby and Gino came into the league before Toews and Kane.

The Lightning's first Cup win with Torts had a much different team from the one that went to the finals and lost to the Hawks and then won back to back but that team being in the playoffs - but in the 6 years between there was at least one conference final run. They got back into it after unloading their "core" veterans.

My expectation for a "well run" organization would be ok fine the run happened but within 5 years they should be reloaded enough to be competitive again and that just isn't the case with this Hawks group.

The hawks are still on the down swing when they should be trending up at this point and quite frankly there isn't a lot to look forward to aside from the German kid that just got injured in a collision that did not look good.

- fattybeef


Ideally that would be the case - and should have been the case. The problem was that the FO took two additional years of trying to go for it and traded valuable assets for poor return and little to no playoff results. They then tried to lightly rebuild which turned into a full rebuild, which turned into trying to win again. So, now they are about 3 years behind what the schedule should have been. I'm a bit more optimistic on what they have in the pipeline than others, but they all need another few years of development. In the meantime, the Hawks need to pick a lane and stick with it otherwise, they will just get slowly worse as the years drag on.
mohel
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 02.08.2013

Nov 30 @ 11:39 AM ET
I do follow GM's and what their results are to an extent but above them, hockey ops guys, is much harder and less reported on. The behind the curtain guys.

An example I guess would be the Hawks themselves. Who wanted to rebuild and who didn't and wanted another shot at a cup with Kane and Toews? We just don't know so following what a hockey ops prez is doing/has done in SJ, NJ, TB, MN is hard to do.

- Mr Ricochet


Exactly. Stan started a rebuild and then abruptly changed course a year or two later. Really, the Hawks front office made both decisions. Who was the force behind them? Smells like ownership to me, with revenue being the issue. If so, is hiring a hockey ops person going to change anything? If Wirtz says "no rebuild", will the fresh look mean anything?
breadbag
Location: Edmonton, AB
Joined: 11.30.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:41 AM ET
Exactly. Stan started a rebuild and then abruptly changed course a year or two later. Really, the Hawks front office made both decisions. Who was the force behind them? Smells like ownership to me, with revenue being the issue. If so, is hiring a hockey ops person going to change anything? If Wirtz says "no rebuild", will the fresh look mean anything?
- mohel


Don't be fooled by the messaging the Hawks sent out about the rebuild. They were already well into the rebuild for about 3 years before that.
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:42 AM ET
Exactly. Stan started a rebuild and then abruptly changed course a year or two later. Really, the Hawks front office made both decisions. Who was the force behind them? Smells like ownership to me, with revenue being the issue. If so, is hiring a hockey ops person going to change anything? If Wirtz says "no rebuild", will the fresh look mean anything?
- mohel


It is important to have a central source through which the hockey decisions are considered. If they hire someone for that position, I would assume that ownership would be on board with the plan that they laid out to get the job. If it is "no rebuild" then all of the decisions will be made through that lens.

I think you still need a point person to coordinate all that.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Nov 30 @ 11:45 AM ET
Chayka is a data analytics entrepreneur (she's at least been around hockey for a while):
Career

- Chunk[edit]
She founded the analytics company Sathletes in the late 2000s with Neil Lane, after filming her brother's matches in the Ontario Junior Hockey League in order to help him improve his performance.[3] The company grew quickly, with the Vancouver Canucks becoming the first NHL team to hire their services in 2012.[4]

The company provided analysis for CBC at the 2018 Winter Olympics.[5]

She was named Ontario Chamber of Commerce's Top Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2018.[6] In 2019, she was granted the George Brown College's The 5 to Watch Sports Business Executive award and was named to The Hockey News' Top 100 People of Power and Influence.[7]

She presented a speech at the 2020 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference.[8]

She has supported the growth of women's hockey, providing analysis for women's university hockey and announcing a landmark partnership with the National Women's Hockey League for the 2020–21 NWHL season.[9]

If you ever listen to Weekes talk hockey in long format (not just 2-3 minute segments), he is both articulate and intricate regarding theory and player types.

I'm honestly on the fence regarding getting a longstanding "hockey guy" or bringing in new blood. If you can clearly present your vision, the road to get there and at least show examples of how/where it has been successful I think that is just as valid as a guy who has been in the league for years.


Glad you posted this about Weekes cuz honestly I've found him to be shallow. A hot take kinda guy with little to no substance. I'll hunt an interview with him to see if I'm wrong on that.

Your last paragraph is very good and something I hope Hawk executives are discussing. Can you have both? A young braniac GM with a grizzled hockey man above him to keep the young buck from driving the bus into a ditch?
Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Nov 30 @ 11:45 AM ET
And the biggest "no poop" of all time goes to:

Lukas Reichel is in concussion protocol and won’t play for the IceHogs tomorrow vs. Milwaukee. No timeline given.

- Chunk


Additionally:
Forward Brett Connolly is expected to miss 1-2 weeks (right leg).
Forward Kale Howarth is expected to miss two weeks (right shoulder).
Defenseman Michael Krutil is expected to miss 1-2 weeks (left hand).
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