Looks like the HockeyBuzz server needs oil again.....

Since I can't quote other's posts since it's my first of the day, going to say I agree with Paul and LA's assessment on Dach. Man he needs to score to get the confidence back up. Same with Kubalik.

We were playing better last year because we were getting key secondary scoring from Dach, Kubalik, Strome, Suter, Kurashev, Janmark and Soderberg compared to this year's Dach, Kubalik, Strome, Kurashev, Hagel (due to injury), T. Johnson (due to injury and illness) and Strome.

Remember when the Kat was having such difficulty in his third year? so far Dach and Kubalik seem to be going through the same phase (hopefully it's just a phase). Those two couldn't buy a goal right now.

I don't think R. Johnson brings a lot and Khaira and Carpenter can do the same things better. Like most people when I say Gaudette should be in, it's not on the 4th line. Someone like Khaira gets moved down to the 4th and Gaudette gets shifted to the 3rd. Right now I'd actually rather see Gaudette in over Kurashev. Kurashev is really weak on the puck and looses almost every battle.

A lot of patience. But let's take some pressure off him. Play him as the 3rd line center with some decent wings that have some offensive upside and some 200' game. In the top 6 he is facing the opponents top line or their shut down line. In the top 6 he is deferring to Kane and ADB and passing up his shot. On the 3rd line he would face weaker lines and without KKane and ADB he might be more inclined to shoot first. If one of the wings has center experience and can take some faceoffs his line might start with the puck more often. I am not totally against moving him to wing somewhere down the road, but let's give him a fair shot (a full season in the NHL) at playing center first.
- -Doh-

But isn't it less pressure for him to play with Kane and Cat since he doesn't have to be responsible in generating offense?

But isn't it less pressure for him to play with Kane and Cat since he doesn't have to be responsible in generating offense?
- BetweenTheDots

No.

To me? It means I wouldn't make any assessment yet on a kid who has had 2 Covid NHL seasons, a broken wrist, on a horrid team, coached by bad coaches, with a goof GM when he should have stayed in jrs for another yr cuz he couldn't play in the AHL due to The Indentured Servitude Clause...... If you set out to sabotage the kid after he was drafted you couldn't have done better than what I listed above.

Besides my own eye test I always fall back on what one scout said after he was drafted. Dach is one of a handful of players on earth that has his size/skating/hands combination. .......... And as a fantasy hockey nut Dobber has proven the average breakout threshold for a 6ft under 200lb player is 200 games. For a bigger player it's 300-400 games, average mind you.

Taking all that into account tells me way too early to make an assessment on Dach but as I said since he was drafted IMO he has at minimum a high floor.
- Mr Ricochet

Great response, could not agree more.

Same draft slot as P-L Dubois, inconsistencies but not for the same reasons. Dach will come around, needs time and some solid coaching. And #19 could be of help to him.

And I wouldn't do any deal for Dach if somebody offered me striaght up any of Hischier, Nolan Patrick, Cody Glass, Turcotte, Newhook, Hayton, Krebs. Trevor Zegras maybe.

Unfortunately thats what happens when a young player is playing on a relatively bad team - forced into a slot he isn't ready for. Pick a reason - competitive level is too much for him at this stage, lacks confidence, unlucky around the net, wingers don't produce on the chances he sets up, etc, etc.

A player I have always really liked is Pierre Luc Dubois, started out great with Columbus. Loved his game. Couldn't understand what happened to him last year, he was basically a zero for the Jets after the trade. Look at him this year playing on a good team with talent around him. He is 23 now, physically mature, experienced. He may even be a long shot candidate for Team Canada. I would be ecstatic if Dach could evolve into a P-L Dubois in a year or 2.
- RickJ

Pierre Luc Dubois is nearing the breakout threshold for bigger players, 300-400 games. Kid has played 293 games Dach has played 92. https://frozenpool.dobber...players/pierre-luc-dubois

But isn't it less pressure for him to play with Kane and Cat since he doesn't have to be responsible in generating offense?
- BetweenTheDots

It might be less pressure in a certain way. But playing with two elite wings can be a crutch also. With his faceoff win rate your best offensive line is starting without the puck a lot. He needs to generate more offense than he has on your top line. He has 3 goals and 2 assists after 287 minutes (not all on the top line) of TOI this season. That is one point in every 58 minutes of ice time. Playing 15 minutes per game that is about 1 point every 4 games. Let him find his game on the 3rd line and then you can elevate him.

Since I can't quote other's posts since it's my first of the day, going to say I agree with Paul and LA's assessment on Dach. Man he needs to score to get the confidence back up. Same with Kubalik.

We were playing better last year because we were getting key secondary scoring from Dach, Kubalik, Strome, Suter, Kurashev, Janmark and Soderberg compared to this year's Dach, Kubalik, Strome, Kurashev, Hagel (due to injury), T. Johnson (due to injury and illness) and Strome.

Remember when the Kat was having such difficulty in his third year? so far Dach and Kubalik seem to be going through the same phase (hopefully it's just a phase). Those two couldn't buy a goal right now.

I don't think R. Johnson brings a lot and Khaira and Carpenter can do the same things better. Like most people when I say Gaudette should be in, it's not on the 4th line. Someone like Khaira gets moved down to the 4th and Gaudette gets shifted to the 3rd. Right now I'd actually rather see Gaudette in over Kurashev. Kurashev is really weak on the puck and looses almost every battle.
- Popsghostly

You bring up a good point. Two years ago, the posters who today like ADB’s game, wanted him out of Chicago on the next flight out of town. I think we need to show some patience with Dach. I think he was promoted to the NHL too early, sat out most of last year with an injury and is struggling on a team with very little talent.

It might be less pressure in a certain way. But playing with two elite wings can be a crutch also. With his faceoff win rate your best offensive line is starting without the puck a lot. He needs to generate more offense than he has on your top line Not all on the top line). He has 3 goals and 2 assists after 287 minutes of TOI this season. That is one point in every 58 minutes of ice time. Playing 15 minutes per game that is about 1 point every 4 games. Let him find his game on the 3rd line and then you can elevate him.
- -Doh-

There's also the quality of competition when playing with Kane. Almost always the top pair and a good defensive line.

It might be less pressure in a certain way. But playing with two elite wings can be a crutch also. With his faceoff win rate your best offensive line is starting without the puck a lot. He needs to generate more offense than he has on your top line Not all on the top line). He has 3 goals and 2 assists after 287 minutes of TOI this season. That is one point in every 58 minutes of ice time. Playing 15 minutes per game that is about 1 point every 4 games. Let him find his game on the 3rd line and then you can elevate him.
- -Doh-

I guess i just agree to disagree, his addition on that line has only helped them. I think it's a very good balance of offensive skill and defensive skill, who cares if he scores if his line is scoring and generating offensive zone pressure. He may not win faceoffs now, but it's not affecting his lines ability to perform.

I don't think we have another forward better suited to play between Kane and Cat on this team.

Great response, could not agree more.

Same draft slot as P-L Dubois, inconsistencies but not for the same reasons. Dach will come around, needs time and some solid coaching. And #19 could be of help to him.

And I wouldn't do any deal for Dach if somebody offered me striaght up any of Hischier, Nolan Patrick, Cody Glass, Turcotte, Newhook, Hayton, Krebs. Trevor Zegras maybe.
- RickJ

You know what, I'm coming around to thinking Dach just might be a beast. You mentioning Dubuois, who I've always loved (kid has some nasty to his game like a Getzlaf with skill too), is an apt analogy. Having watched his whole career, the ups and down, the yrs with Torts, and now playing fantastic hockey and looking up his stats and seeing it took 280 games to find himself and START to figure it out I see Dach with 92 games played and I have lotsa context.

The visions of the big kid skating end to end like very few can at his size with that hands/feet/skill combo. Kid has all that's needed to go beast mode and become unstoppable. Of course that doesn't mean he will but he has the package to do so.

Which brings me to what I've screamed all along is the most important thing for this franchise. To have an elite hockey mind at the top of the hockey ops pyramid that knows, and understands from being around the sport for 30 yrs, how to develop, most importantly not ruin, a Dach, Reichel, Commesso.

What good is a cell phone to a cave man if he doesn't know how to use it?

Pierre Luc Dubois is nearing the breakout threshold for bigger players, 300-400 games. Kid has played 293 games Dach has played 92. https://frozenpool.dobber...players/pierre-luc-dubois
- Mr Ricochet

Thanks for including that, its great.

And speaking of great, P-L D has a very nice linemate in Kyle Connor.

To me? It means I wouldn't make any assessment yet on a kid who has had 2 Covid NHL seasons, a broken wrist, on a horrid team, coached by bad coaches, with a goof GM when he should have stayed in jrs for another yr cuz he couldn't play in the AHL due to The Indentured Servitude Clause...... If you set out to sabotage the kid after he was drafted you couldn't have done better than what I listed above.

Besides my own eye test I always fall back on what one scout said after he was drafted. Dach is one of a handful of players on earth that has his size/skating/hands combination. .......... And as a fantasy hockey nut Dobber has proven the average breakout threshold for a 6ft under 200lb player is 200 games. For a bigger player it's 300-400 games, average mind you.

Taking all that into account tells me way too early to make an assessment on Dach but as I said since he was drafted IMO he has at minimum a high floor.
- Mr Ricochet

Is that in The Show - or are AHL games part of the calculation.

The general wisdom used to be that MLB players needed 1,500 PAs in the minors before being ready for the majors. I’ve thought something similar/comparable for hockey.

Thanks for including that, its great.

And speaking of great, P-L D has a very nice linemate in Kyle Connor.
- RickJ

Guess it's been 15 yrs now I've been going to USHL games, and that includes when the US NTDP comes to town, and there have been just 2 players in that time I left my center ice seat 20 rows up to watch from behind the net. Kyle Connor (Youngstown Phantoms) and Andrei Svechnikov (Muskegon Lumberjacks).

Good Lord could Connor flat out fly. When he came at the net at hair on fire pace he didn't come in a straight line, the kid had a zig to his path and even then used multiple gears........ Yrs later with experience and IQ watching him with the Jets just burn around the zone with speed nobody on the ice can touch. On loose pucks if he wants it it's his.

And Svech, kid had a backhander at 17 that sizzled and bit like a fast ball. Came in off the edge, lowered his shoulder getting a step on the Dman and the thing bit and jumped with more speed than when it left his stick.

Is that in The Show - or are AHL games part of the calculation.

The general wisdom used to be that MLB players needed 1,500 PAs in the minors before being ready for the majors. I’ve thought something similar/comparable for hockey.
- StLBravesFan

No, that's NHL games. 200 for a smaller player 300 to 400 for a bigger one... Glad you added the numbers for a big leaguer before he pops cuz it's simply data. As soon as Dobber writes again about the breakout threshold I'll post.

He explained it. Something like 15 yrs of data used to come to his breakout games played number AVERAGE.

You know what, I'm coming around to thinking Dach just might be a beast. You mentioning Dubuois, who I've always loved (kid has some nasty to his game like a Getzlaf with skill too), is an apt analogy. Having watched his whole career, the ups and down, the yrs with Torts, and now playing fantastic hockey and looking up his stats and seeing it took 280 games to find himself and START to figure it out I see Dach with 92 games played and I have lotsa context.

The visions of the big kid skating end to end like very few can at his size with that hands/feet/skill combo. Kid has all that's needed to go beast mode and become unstoppable. Of course that doesn't mean he will but he has the package to do so.

Which brings me to what I've screamed all along is the most important thing for this franchise. To have an elite hockey mind at the top of the hockey ops pyramid that knows, and understands from being around the sport for 30 yrs, how to develop, most importantly not ruin, a Dach, Reichel, Commesso.

What good is a cell phone to a cave man if he doesn't know how to use it?
- Mr Ricochet

Torts was very hard on Dubois but he taught him quite a bit about how to become a dominant player. Dubois was outstanding in that 5 game bubble series vs Toronto in the 1st shortened season. And now he is maturing into that dominant type player.

And speaking of Getzlaf, ever hear Troy Terry who is on a huge roll this year, talk about Getzy as his linemate. "Large scary man with eyes in the back of his head, lays it on my stick when I didn't even know I was open"

And Getzlaf decided to play this year for the same salary as Strome.

Guess it's been 15 yrs now I've been going to USHL games, and that includes when the US NTDP comes to town, and there have been just 2 players in that time I left my center ice seat 20 rows up to watch from behind the net. Kyle Connor (Youngstown Phantoms) and Andrei Svechnikov (Muskegon Lumberjacks).

Good Lord could Connor flat out fly. When he came at the net at hair on fire pace he didn't come in a straight line, the kid had a zig to his path and even then used multiple gears........ Yrs later with experience and IQ watching him with the Jets just burn around the zone with speed nobody on the ice can touch. On loose pucks if he wants it it's his.

And Svech, kid had a backhander at 17 that sizzled and bit like a fast ball. Came in off the edge, lowered his shoulder getting a step on the Dman and the thing bit and jumped with more speed than when it left his stick.
- Mr Ricochet

Wouldn't mind checking out a USHL game or 2 when I am in Chicago in December. Assume best thing is to check out the Steel schedule.

No, that's NHL games. 200 for a smaller player 300 to 400 for a bigger one... Glad you added the numbers for a big leaguer before he pops cuz it's simply data. As soon as Dobber writes again about the breakout threshold I'll post.

He explained it. Something like 15 yrs of data used to come to his breakout games played number AVERAGE.
- Mr Ricochet

Is that the time frame for the player to reach his peak? I'd expect that there needs to be evident growth on the way to that peak? In other words, would a big player look better at 250 games than at 100? (Not a question about Dach, just a general question about the metric).

You bring up a good point. Two years ago, the posters who today like ADB’s game, wanted him out of Chicago on the next flight out of town. I think we need to show some patience with Dach. I think he was promoted to the NHL too early, sat out most of last year with an injury and is struggling on a team with very little talent.
- paulr

Paul, we are fans. We are wrong more than right even hard cores who post on a message board about hockey in the summer.

As a Canadian you are exposed to some fine hockey minds everywhere same way we are to football and baseball minds in Chicago........ Took being at jr games talking to scouts to show me just how little I really know. These people can pick apart a single shift like a surgeon. It's how they pay their mortgage payment, send their kids to school and earn a pension. A fan has zero training on such matters even though they're watched for 30 yrs.

Nothing wrong with being wrong as a fan but the better ones take inventory of their opinions over time and learn not to make set in stone assertions.

Guess it's been 15 yrs now I've been going to USHL games, and that includes when the US NTDP comes to town, and there have been just 2 players in that time I left my center ice seat 20 rows up to watch from behind the net. Kyle Connor (Youngstown Phantoms) and Andrei Svechnikov (Muskegon Lumberjacks).

Good Lord could Connor flat out fly. When he came at the net at hair on fire pace he didn't come in a straight line, the kid had a zig to his path and even then used multiple gears........ Yrs later with experience and IQ watching him with the Jets just burn around the zone with speed nobody on the ice can touch. On loose pucks if he wants it it's his.

And Svech, kid had a backhander at 17 that sizzled and bit like a fast ball. Came in off the edge, lowered his shoulder getting a step on the Dman and the thing bit and jumped with more speed than when it left his stick.
- Mr Ricochet

Funny you say that about attending USHL games and the players you saw. I have been going to Oshawa Generals and Peterborough Petes games for 34 years. I’ve shared seasons tickets for the Gens for 31 years. I remember seeing Eric Lindros in the late 80s early 90s, he was a (frank)ing beast and brought you out of your seat every time he was on the ice. The next best player almost 30 years later was McDavid who I saw live twice. Something magical seeing these guys as kids then seeing them dominate the NHL a few years later.

Hiya chitcagp bastards. I guess it must such in such a repressive state ok Illinois and pay all those high rise luxury taxdoolh

No, that's NHL games. 200 for a smaller player 300 to 400 for a bigger one... Glad you added the numbers for a big leaguer before he pops cuz it's simply data. As soon as Dobber writes again about the breakout threshold I'll post.

He explained it. Something like 15 yrs of data used to come to his breakout games played number AVERAGE.
- Mr Ricochet

Thanks Rico for posting this info, i was getting a ton of ridicule last season for saying this, young players need games to get better in NHL, hope they aren't as harsh on you

Hiya chitcagp bastards. I guess it must such in such a repressive state ok Illinois and pay all those high rise luxury taxdoolh
- BluesDroogie

Until this day, I could have swore you were capable of at least stringing together a coherent sentence.

Hiya chitcagp bastards. I guess it must such in such a repressive state ok Illinois and pay all those high rise luxury taxdoolh
- BluesDroogie

But did you know our state doesn't tax retirement income, unfortunately yours does

Paul, we are fans. We are wrong more than right even hard cores who post on a message board about hockey in the summer.

As a Canadian you are exposed to some fine hockey minds everywhere same way we are to football and baseball minds in Chicago........ Took being at jr games talking to scouts to show me just how little I really know. These people can pick apart a single shift like a surgeon. It's how they pay their mortgage payment, send their kids to school and earn a pension. A fan has zero training on such matters even though they're watched for 30 yrs.

Nothing wrong with being wrong as a fan but the better ones take inventory of their opinions over time and learn not to make set in stone assertions.
- Mr Ricochet

It’s your sentiment here that makes me hesitant of dismissing players, especially young ones. Unfortunately I have given up on Strome and Nylander, though I’d love both to prove my assessment wrong. But both seem to lack the competitiveness to be top NHL players. I don’t see that in Dach.

And don’t sell American hockey minds short, lots of great hockey players and coaches and with the populations of our two countries it’s only a matter of time for you guys to dominate. So many people hate Bettman but because of him, non traditional hockey markets are now grassroots hockey centers. Twenty years ago Austen Matthews would probably be playing baseball, football or basketball. Top US athletes are now exposed to and have a chance to love hockey even in crazy non traditional places like Arizona, Florida and California.