Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
Sep 20 @ 2:53 PM ET
[quote=winsix]
The WAR I was citing was as a positional player - Semien and Vlad are at the top of the list, and Ohtani is 14th. Separating that, as a pitcher, Ohtani is 8th.
Combined Ohtani becomes #1 in WAR. Where I disagree is that the math used in WAR makes certain assumptions in disseminating value that add into the consideration of a Win. One of those is that it's going to carry favour for a player who can both pitch and hit. Don't get me wrong - no one player can effect the outcome of a game more than a pitcher - and Ohtani has 9 wins, which is good enough for a tie as the 24th best pitcher (I had earlier put in 25th, but that counted a row for the league average of 10 wins among starters).
As I say, in 22 games Ohtani is the #1 WAR producing player in all of baseball. In 140 games he is the #14 WAR producing player. A separation in the way WAR is considered probably matters.
Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
Sep 20 @ 2:58 PM ET
Stieb was a gem. Tony Kubek used to call him conveniently wild. - shack67
Man, I don't think I could limit that list to just 3. Stieb, Halladay, Olerud, Fernandez, Alomar, Key (as a player, not as the wanker he may have turned out to be), Ward . . .before too long I bet Vlad and Bo get mentioned in this same list. Christ, we all want to distance ourselves from him, but Clemens as a Blue Jay was phenomenal. He was like a steroid cyborg. 64% man 36% steroid . . .But still.
Location: Henry Hudson's Fairchild 24 South Porcupine Joined: 04.03.2016
Sep 20 @ 2:59 PM ET
I've made my case, and the author has made his. I disagree here, but keep in mind that Tom Verducci has unspeakable bias. He jumped on the Ohtani hype-train a few years back and he has been shoveling the coal into its engine ever since.
I accept that we've never seen its like - a pitcher who hits a ton of home runs. Or is it a guy who hits a lot of home runs who can also pitch? Not since Babe Ruth. It doesn't make him Babe Ruth - no matter how much Verducci wants to draw the comparison and call Ohtani better (which he did) - or make excuses that people stopped pitching to Ohtani. Did they? He has 2 homers in September, and has only struck out 19 times in 15 games. But he's only walked 8 times. He's hitting .212 in September. That's not MVP hitting either. - Monkeypunk
Good points, as I alluded to earlier, it may be unsustainable to be an excellent pitcher and hitter at the same time. Ohtani will probably win, that said, he does not hit like either Semien or Vladdy, I doubt he ever will. He does have 23 SB, and there has never been a major league season where a player has hit 50 homers with 25 stolen bases. Add the pitching and there is reason for the hype. The list of lifetime leaders in WAR is a remarkable list which is skewed towards pitching IMO, but the top 200 players are great for the most part.
Location: Living rent free... in your head, ON Joined: 09.20.2010
Sep 20 @ 3:01 PM ET
Nothing bothers me more than this narrative that Ohtani is the hands-down MVP winner because he's doing something that no one has seen before. But he's not MVP calibre at ANY of it.
I know he's going to win. I understand that. I just think it's carried like the momentum of a snowball on a hill. I don't see how he deserves it.
As a pitcher, he's been very good. It's a season that you would be proud of, and he would be a key part of your rotation - one that you wished would be able to pitch more and enough to be actually valuable to making the playoffs. As it is he starts 1/3 less than the top starters in the league. He still carries the 8th best WAR among pitchers, so it's nothing to sneeze at. But as a batter he is behind in every category.
In other words, as a starter he hasn't pitched enough innings to qualify amongst ML pitchers because there's a standard of 1IP / Game Played. A standard they are ignoring due to the hype that is the Unicorn, Ohtani.
As a batter he qualifies. He qualifies well enough to carry the 49th best batting average and the 14th best WAR as a player.
In other words at the moment Ohtani has played 142 games and in 22 of those, he's been the 8th best pitcher in the AL - and the best overall player because of his batting included. In the other 120 games he's been the 14th best batter.
Vlad has played 148 games, and Semien has played 149. In those games, they have been the most valuable player to their team in the entire league in terms of adding Wins.
WAR
Guerrero 2
Ohtani 14
Semien 1 (included only because he's #1 in WAR)
HR
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 3
RBI
Guerrero 4
Ohtani 14
Avg
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 49
OPS / Slugging Guerrero 1
Ohtani 2
Runs
Guerrero 1
Ohtani 10
Strikeouts
Ohtani 3
Guerrero 60
Walks
Guerrero 3
Ohtani 7
Total Bases Guerrero 1
Ohtani 5
Pitching WAR Ohtani 8
Wins
Ohtani T-25
ERA
Ohtani Would be 5th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings
K's Ohtani 22
WHIP
Ohtani Would be 5th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings
SO/W Ration Ohtani Would be 11th, but does not qualify due to lack of innings - Monkeypunk
Location: Henry Hudson's Fairchild 24 South Porcupine Joined: 04.03.2016
Sep 20 @ 3:14 PM ET
Because I'm an old grumpy frank.
I don't care if the Jays win the next 20 World Series in a row - the teams from about 1981-1988 will always be my favourites.
They were my introduction to baseball, and they are my warmest memories.
People don't believe me, but I like them better than the '92 and '93 Jays.
I always play the game: if I gave you a coupon for a Jays jersey of any player in any era, who would you get?
In no particular order, my top three would be:
Stieb
Upshaw
Barfield
There's probably 5 more guys on that list from the early teams before I get to the '92 team (probably Henke). - Atomic Wedgie
I can be as well, you are probably younger than me (at least a few years)
Jays had some really bad seasons and the changes especially in the 80's made things super exciting. Going to games at Exhibition Stadium was great fun, despite the metal benches that were as uncomfortable as hell, the seagulls and the cold, windy games early and late in the season. Jays did have their moments though, and I loved it. (that said, this current team is pretty fun to watch and get behind) Just for you - I was at this game!
Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
Sep 20 @ 3:26 PM ET
Good points, as I alluded to earlier, it may be unsustainable to be an excellent pitcher and hitter at the same time. Ohtani will probably win, that said, he does not hit like either Semien or Vladdy, I doubt he ever will. He does have 23 SB, and there has never been a major league season where a player has hit 50 homers with 25 stolen bases. Add the pitching and there is reason for the hype. The list of lifetime leaders in WAR is a remarkable list which is skewed towards pitching IMO, but the top 200 players are great for the most part.
Absolutely. I think the WAR stat for pitchers is weighted a little more heavily because they don't bat, which is where WAR stats can accumulate (R, SB, Total Bases, RBI, HR, BB . . . .there are a number of stats where that accumulates over 162 games). In the late 1800s it was such a bizarre game. Old Hoss Radbourn (seriously, what a great name . . .) who looked like an escaped prisoner (as did everyone from the 1800s) had a season in 1884 where he was 60-12. He pitched 679 innings that year. I know they just lobbed balls in, but God. I love those stats. He died at 42 assumedly when his arm separated itself from his body and choked him to death.
One other possible bit of trivia about him: It's possible that he might have been the first person ever photographed giving someone the finger.
Location: At the centre of the hockey universe Joined: 07.31.2006
Sep 20 @ 3:32 PM ET
I've made my case, and the author has made his. I disagree here, but keep in mind that Tom Verducci has unspeakable bias. He jumped on the Ohtani hype-train a few years back and he has been shoveling the coal into its engine ever since.
I accept that we've never seen its like - a pitcher who hits a ton of home runs. Or is it a guy who hits a lot of home runs who can also pitch? Not since Babe Ruth. It doesn't make him Babe Ruth - no matter how much Verducci wants to draw the comparison and call Ohtani better (which he did) - or make excuses that people stopped pitching to Ohtani. Did they? He has 2 homers in September, and has only struck out 19 times in 15 games. But he's only walked 8 times. He's hitting .212 in September. That's not MVP hitting either. - Monkeypunk
I've stopped following baseball beyond just turning the TV on and watching Jays games, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
Location: Rope a Franking Dope!, ON Joined: 07.06.2007
Sep 20 @ 4:44 PM ET
Stieb was a gem. Tony Kubek used to call him conveniently wild. - shack67
And mean as poop at times. I remember seeing him pitch against the A’s at some point in the mid ‘80s and he was in a foul mood. Dave Kingman came up to bat. Kingman was one of the most imposing looking ball players I had seen, along with maybe Vlad senior - just big and athletic.
Stieb threw 3 pitches at his head and Kingman went down in a heap after each pitch and they just glared at each other. (You could get great seats at the Ex for nothing). He then struck him out on the next three pitches. It was amazing. The small crowd went crazy.
The only other thing of note at those games is that you could always see Geddy Lee sitting about 6 o7 rows up on the first base line.
And mean as poop at times. I remember seeing him pitch against the A’s at some point in the mid ‘80s and he was in a foul mood. Dave Kingman came up to bat. Kingman was one of the most imposing looking ball players I had seen, along with maybe Vlad senior - just big and athletic.
Stieb threw 3 pitches at his head and Kingman went down in a heap after each pitch and they just glared at each other. (You could get great seats at the Ex for nothing). He then struck him out on the next three pitches. It was amazing. The small crowd went crazy.
The only other thing of note at those games is that you could always see Geddy Lee sitting about 6 o7 rows up on the first base line. - Canada Cup
I loved the jays back then. Stieb could never seem to get any run support. He was so intense that it was almost scary.
Location: At the centre of the hockey universe Joined: 07.31.2006
Sep 20 @ 4:58 PM ET
And mean as poop at times. I remember seeing him pitch against the A’s at some point in the mid ‘80s and he was in a foul mood. Dave Kingman came up to bat. Kingman was one of the most imposing looking ball players I had seen, along with maybe Vlad senior - just big and athletic.
Stieb threw 3 pitches at his head and Kingman went down in a heap after each pitch and they just glared at each other. (You could get great seats at the Ex for nothing). He then struck him out on the next three pitches. It was amazing. The small crowd went crazy.
The only other thing of note at those games is that you could always see Geddy Lee sitting about 6 o7 rows up on the first base line. - Canada Cup
The thing I always respected about Stieb is he never tried to pretend he wasn't a miserable S.O.B.
