Chicago is up there with Tampa in salary cap weaseling techniques. I'm sure Hossa's jock strap can be found. If anything they will be pushing the salary cap to as much as Tampa did last season.
- winsix

But they cant work around performance bonuses. If Dach hits his 2.5M bonuses they have to pay it next season and I think even more as a penalty.

That is exactly correct. Actually I think the 500k that we had to spend disappears because the injured player's salary counts to the cap - until the cap is reached - and the remainder is effectively forgiven as LTIR relief.

Acquiring someone like Kesler does not allow us to sign other players that are worth 6.8 million total.
- Njuice

the problem is you can't accrue any cap space.. So you have to get a guy that you know will never return

Then betting on which one gave him crabs.
- Steven_Seagull

lmfaooooooooo 🤣

Its sounding like you can, Monkeypuck had a good explanation and I have been reading up on it.

Sounds like it absolutely gives you cap space but there are disadvantages.

Only half the league is even able to spend to the cap or past it so only half the league can even have LTIR benefits.

It doesn't allow you to accrue cap space and add major pieces at the deadline.

And finally if you have players with performance bonuses and you go over the cap with LTIR you are (frank)ed.

CHI has 3.5m in performance bonuses on their roster and 80% of potential call ups have performance bonuses. Which is the case for most teams. Where the Leafs only have Lil in their entire org with performance bonuses, they are built for this scenario.
- Santo_44

Right. Any bonuses that you can't pay from your standard ACSL are automatically deducted from next year's cap. So if you have Performance bonuses that's problematic. You don't want to go into another flat cap year and have $3-4m deducted from your starting point. Or really anything.

It also creates flexibility problems throughout the year as non-severe injuries occur because you might not have cap flexibility to bring other salaries onto the roster. With ACSL daily accrual, that type of flexibility usually avails itself, or you can use Emergency call-ups (I think there was significantly greater latitude given last year due to COVID in the Emergency call-up and application rule).

Right. Any bonuses that you can't pay from your standard ACSL are automatically deducted from next year's cap. So if you have Performance bonuses that's problematic. You don't want to go into another flat cap year and have $3-4m deducted from your starting point. Or really anything.

It also creates flexibility problems throughout the year as non-severe injuries occur because you might not have cap flexibility to bring other salaries onto the roster. With ACSL daily accrual, that type of flexibility usually avails itself, or you can use Emergency call-ups (I think there was significantly greater latitude given last year due to COVID in the Emergency call-up and application rule).
- Monkeypunk

Exactly, which is why if you go on cap friendly the leafs are one of the few teams with no bonuses...they were prepared for this scenario.

Read the link that Scabeh shared with you.
- Monkeypunk

The link kind of proves him right though...

"The amount that a team may exceed the salary cap due to LTIR is commonly referred to as the “LTIR Pool”"

"If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap"

Read the link that Scabeh shared with you.
- Monkeypunk

I did. If you are a cap team. The LTIR relief is being used for the player on LTIR.

If you are not a cap team the LTIR player counts against your cap.

The link kind of proves him right though...

"The amount that a team may exceed the salary cap due to LTIR is commonly referred to as the “LTIR Pool”"

"If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap"
- Leafs43

Yes, but you can use the LTIR Pool. If the player gets healthy and comes off of the LTIR, you have to have room on your roster. So typically LTIR flexibility might be used for fitting in a call-up from the AHL if a player from the roster is injured.

The idea, originally, was that if a player on your roster had a season-ending injury, you could go out and acquire a player of equivalent or less value and they could fill-in for the injured player. Now if I had been writing the rules, I likely would have had a few clauses - 'no player can remain on the LTIR exception list for longer than 'x'' - or instead have a specific career ending clause allowing for these players to be paid out but removed the NHL player roster for cap considerations; 'Players on the LTIR relief list may not be traded' are a couple that come to mind.

But those rules don't exist. So abuse is possible for cap tight teams.

Yes, but you can use the LTIR Pool. If the player gets healthy and comes off of the LTIR, you have to have room on your roster. So typically LTIR flexibility might be used for fitting in a call-up from the AHL if a player from the roster is injured.

The idea, originally, was that if a player on your roster had a season-ending injury, you could go out and acquire a player of equivalent or less value and they could fill-in for the injured player. Now if I had been writing the rules, I likely would have had a few clauses - 'no player can remain on the LTIR exception list for longer than 'x'' - or instead have a specific career ending clause allowing for these players to be paid out but removed the NHL player roster for cap considerations; 'Players on the LTIR relief list may not be traded' are a couple that come to mind.

But those rules don't exist. So abuse is possible for cap tight teams.
- Monkeypunk

It's only possible if that player or players are miraculously heathy for game one of the playoffs.

Yes, but you can use the LTIR Pool. If the player gets healthy and comes off of the LTIR, you have to have room on your roster. So typically LTIR flexibility might be used for fitting in a call-up from the AHL if a player from the roster is injured.

The idea, originally, was that if a player on your roster had a season-ending injury, you could go out and acquire a player of equivalent or less value and they could fill-in for the injured player. Now if I had been writing the rules, I likely would have had a few clauses - 'no player can remain on the LTIR exception list for longer than 'x'' - or instead have a specific career ending clause allowing for these players to be paid out but removed the NHL player roster for cap considerations; 'Players on the LTIR relief list may not be traded' are a couple that come to mind.

But those rules don't exist. So abuse is possible for cap tight teams.
- Monkeypunk

Ok - but the bottom line is that a team that is currently at 81 million cap hit (500k space remaining) does not "gain" any sort of significant cap space by acquiring LTIR players. (My understanding is that the benefits are there, but they are minimal)

In short - acquiring Kessler's contract does not magically allow us to sign another 5 million dollar player.

no, thy will have more than $500k to spend, because the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap.

Like in your example;

if a player with a $5.5M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $500K of Cap Space available, the LTIR pool is $5M ($5.5M-$0.5M).
Basically, the closer to the max cap, the better
- PatC80

So we go from 80.5 to 86 with Kesler - then we LTIR him and we’re back to 81.5 and then we are $5m cap hit and now we’re at 86.5

Not sure I get it...we’re still over by $5m

My general understanding on LTIR is that it is better not to use it at all and be able to accrue cap space throughout the year up until the TDL.

But if you are going to use LTIR...There are minimal benefits to going big. (The actual benefits of going big are way over my head) Which is why you see teams that are already using LTIR acquire additional LTIR players for cap reasons, but you rarely see teams that are not using LTIR acquire a player who is on LTIR.

Example - Toronto already had Horton on LTIR before acquiring Clarkson.

Example 2 - Tampa already planned on having Kucherov on LTIR before acquiring Gaborik and Nilsen.

I miss the ice cream talk.

So we go from 80.5 to 86 with Kesler - then we LTIR him and we’re back to 81.5 and then we are $5m cap hit and now we’re at 86.5

Not sure I get it...we’re still over by $5m
- Garnie

Only if the player that is on LTIR comes back during the regular season.

The drawback is if you have, like Santo said, performance bonuses to pay or if you want to make any moves at the TDL to improve the team, you will need to move money out first.

I miss the ice cream talk.
- Scabeh

Are you going to ignore and disrespect cookie dough again?

My general understanding on LTIR is that it is better not to use it at all and be able to accrue cap space throughout the year up until the TDL.

But if you are going to use LTIR...There are minimal benefits to going big. (The actual benefits of going big are way over my head) Which is why you see teams that are already using LTIR acquire additional LTIR players for cap reasons, but you rarely see teams that are not using LTIR acquire a player who is on LTIR.

Example - Toronto already had Horton on LTIR before acquiring Clarkson.

Example 2 - Tampa already planned on having Kucherov on LTIR before acquiring Gaborik and Nilsen.
- Leafs43

The benefit is that you can actually be over the cap. Like literally if we went out and acquired Kesler right now, we could then fit a guy like Rakell on our roster despite only having $500k in cap room.

It's in-your-face cap circumvention and one that the NHL would likely seek to address through it's back-reaching punishment policies, and I doubt many teams want to f* with the league so overtly.

Now, doing what Tampa did last year is a little different (but still circumvention).

This is opinion and not fact, so I'm open to being corrected by someone who knows more about Tampa's situation but once you're in LTIR and you're pretty much committed, you still have to have roster flexibility to move players up and down in the event of injury. You don't want to be stuck in a place where you're constantly waiving your players just to make room because of a minor injury here or there. So you want to acquire other LTIR contracts to give yourself a buffer. This way you can keep some room in your LTIR pool and move guys up and down as needed without running the risk of being out of LTIR pool room or having to waive an injured player to bring up a non-injured one.

I miss the ice cream talk.
- Scabeh

Ice Cream is considered a Performance Bonus and if you're operating in LTIR, it will be subject to deduction from next year's cap limit for your . . .uh. Sorry. On a roll.

Yeah. Ice cream talk was definitely less math-y.

I miss the ice cream talk.
- Scabeh

This isn’t? In that case I’m totally confused

If things do go well, there is a lot to be excited for. Not only does Liljegren have three years left on this deal, he only costs $863,333 against the cap. The fact that he’s had one more ELC slide than Sandin means the Leafs could keep Liljegren on a 21 man roster without trading any contracts.

Liljegren does have $400,000 of potential Performance Bonuses that would hinder a team using LTIR, but the fact that he was on the opening day roster when the Leafs placed their players on LTIR means the Leafs had a Performance Bonus relief pool of exactly $400,000.

Some more confusing cap poop but if they went the LTIR road Lilybust may not be able to play a game for the leafs.
- Santo_44

Aren't performance bonus applied to the next year cap? So, if he did meet all of bonus and got the $400k, it would then be applied to the 22-23 season's cap hit.

My understanding is that Kesler is never returning. His hip surgery was career-ending.

So right now the Leafs are at $81.5m on the cap. Because it's the off-season, they can add up to 10% over the cap ($8.15m). So they could acquire Kesler's rights bringing their cap total to $88.375m (81.5 + 6.875).

Because Kesler can't play, he can be immediately placed on the LTIR list and his salary on the LTIR can be used.

Basically the way LTIR works is this: LTIR Salary - (Cap Limit - Actual Team Cap) is the available room you have.

So if you LTIR Kesler's 6.875m salary, you can get that salary back minus the amount of cap room you're not using (So the Leafs are technically at $81.42 if they juggle wisely), so they would have $6.8m in additional room they could use.

We did it two years ago with Horton & Clarkson.
- Monkeypunk

The cap is the cap.
The clarkson deal was about maximizing ltir relief to get to the cap.
No magical way to create extra space above the cap.

To even begin to consider it, Columbus would have to eat half his salary.

I just don't see it happening.

Kinda like PK Subban to Toronto a couple of years ago.
- Atomic Wedgie

Domi is also hurt.

December/January time line ish

The benefit is that you can actually be over the cap. Like literally if we went out and acquired Kesler right now, we could then fit a guy like Rakell on our roster despite only having $500k in cap room.

It's in-your-face cap circumvention and one that the NHL would likely seek to address through it's back-reaching punishment policies, and I doubt many teams want to f* with the league so overtly.

Now, doing what Tampa did last year is a little different (but still circumvention).

This is opinion and not fact, so I'm open to being corrected by someone who knows more about Tampa's situation but once you're in LTIR and you're pretty much committed, you still have to have roster flexibility to move players up and down in the event of injury. You don't want to be stuck in a place where you're constantly waiving your players just to make room because of a minor injury here or there. So you want to acquire other LTIR contracts to give yourself a buffer. This way you can keep some room in your LTIR pool and move guys up and down as needed without running the risk of being out of LTIR pool room or having to waive an injured player to bring up a non-injured one.
- Monkeypunk

This isn't true though...

LTIR contracts would be gold if this was true. The Leafs would have 30 million in LTIR and Pietrangelo and Hamilton would be Leafs.

Again, from Scabeh's link. "The amount that a team may exceed the salary cap due to LTIR is commonly referred to as the “LTIR Pool”

"If a team cannot be cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, the LTIR Pool is the amount the team exceeds the Cap. For example, if a team is $3M over the Cap and places a player on LTIR with a $4M Cap Hit for the opening roster submission, the LTIR Pool is the $3M that the team exceeded the cap"

So if the Leafs are at 81 million. and they add a 6.5 million contract. They would be at 87.5 million. They would have to start the year with the 6.5 million on LTIR - so their LTIR pool would be 87.5-81.5 = 6 million.

So we can exceed the cap by 6 million during the year...But we are already exceeding the cap by 6 million by being at 87.5 million.

Which means we can't do sh!t.

The benefit is that you can actually be over the cap. Like literally if we went out and acquired Kesler right now, we could then fit a guy like Rakell on our roster despite only having $500k in cap room.

It's in-your-face cap circumvention and one that the NHL would likely seek to address through it's back-reaching punishment policies, and I doubt many teams want to f* with the league so overtly.

Now, doing what Tampa did last year is a little different (but still circumvention).

This is opinion and not fact, so I'm open to being corrected by someone who knows more about Tampa's situation but once you're in LTIR and you're pretty much committed, you still have to have roster flexibility to move players up and down in the event of injury. You don't want to be stuck in a place where you're constantly waiving your players just to make room because of a minor injury here or there. So you want to acquire other LTIR contracts to give yourself a buffer. This way you can keep some room in your LTIR pool and move guys up and down as needed without running the risk of being out of LTIR pool room or having to waive an injured player to bring up a non-injured one.
- Monkeypunk

The obvious difference in the Tampa situation is that any circumvention requires a medical assessment, not an assessment of lawyers and accountants. Tampa shared medical reports with the league who could have challenged them.

Unfortunately, the common sense assessment of “he was skating with the team” isn’t a factor. If his doctor says no, that’s pretty well it. It’s not circumvention if the CBA is so wide as to make it that easy.

Yes including Marincin who is a piece of poop but since he makes less than a million can be sent down. Domi is a distraction this Leaf team does not need.
- winsix

Dude signed in Europe- KHL, Czech league or something of the sorts.

No longer a Leafs

new blog everyone