issue we have with all these different era players....IMO....is this...

The skaters today are 1000% better than when Orr or Gretzky played. So is the talent gap from the best player to the worst player. So are the goalies......so yes, Bobby Orr per videos is ridiculous, and Gretzky/Mario/Hull/etc all had amazing shots/skill but none of them have/will play in this era......there is ZERO chance Orr could skate around the rink against today's players and kill a penalty by himself.

he was great but...if you put OVechkin in the era in the 60s-mid 90s against those players does he pop 80+ goals? Maybe 90+? Possibly.....would Gretzky score 90 in todays' game? no.
- SteveRain

Offense was harder in the older days, no touch up offside, center line offside, what is considered interference today would be considered a good defensive play in the old days. In the old days you just about had to break a wrist in order to be called for slashing. What Bugsy Watson did each time Hull was on the ice (whether or not he had the puck or not) would warrant a penalty.

Offense was harder in the older days, no touch up offside, center line offside, what is considered interference today would be considered a good defensive play in the old days. In the old days you just about had to break a wrist in order to be called for slashing. What Bugsy Watson did each time Hull was on the ice (whether or not he had the puck or not) would warrant a penalty.
- LAHawk

Good point! In the 70s Patrick Kane certainly wouldn’t have made junior let alone the NHL. Don’t get me wrong I prefer hockey today and agree with most of the rule changes but imagine an 18 year old Orr unleashed today where guys couldn’t jump on his back, grab on and waterski behind him or use their, not as easily breakable, wooden sticks on his body like axes on trees.

Offense was harder in the older days, no touch up offside, center line offside, what is considered interference today would be considered a good defensive play in the old days. In the old days you just about had to break a wrist in order to be called for slashing. What Bugsy Watson did each time Hull was on the ice (whether or not he had the puck or not) would warrant a penalty.
- LAHawk

yeah, but if you watch highlights of the "old days" 75% of the goals scored would be considered "soft" today. Guys teeing up above the circles and going 5 hole because you had a stand up goalie with pads as wide as common day shin pads.

That's before you get into the the focus on shot blocking from defensemen and forwards.

How far back are you going? 80s/early 90s guys were potting 40+ goals at will.

Gilles Marotte
- Angotti

I think Gilles Marotte wore #2.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's my recall. And #4 Bobby Orr was the greatest hockey player I ever saw. Unfortunately he came to the Hawks when his knees were completely shot.....but I still remember going to the Stadium when the Bruins came to town to see that guy skate and take over an entire game.

Good point! In the 70s Patrick Kane certainly wouldn’t have made junior let alone the NHL. Don’t get me wrong I prefer hockey today and agree with most of the rule changes but imagine an 18 year old Orr unleashed today where guys couldn’t jump on his back, grab on and waterski behind him or use their, not as easily breakable, wooden sticks on his body like axes on trees.
- paulr

I don't believe that. There were any number of smaller players back in those days. Kane would gone through the systems and adjusted to the more physical aspects of those days.

When talking about hockey in the pre-expansion era, don't forget 3 teams were basically farm clubs for the other three. The whole territorial rights gave Montreal, Toronto and the Wings an advantage. Bruins, Rangers and Hawks were cannon fodder for alot of those years

when baseball capped the international signing amount....theo lost a lot of steam.

I believe he's overrated.....

1. He didn't draft all those players that contributed
2. Maddon gets as much, if not MORE, credit for them winning in 2016 by navigating the day to day pressure of what you mentioned. Something Baker and Sweet Lou couldn't do.
3. Those cubs will IMO always be compared to the Ditka Bears....tons of talent, but only once....great, but should have won multiple times like Jordan's Bulls and Toews/Kane Hawks did.
4.Just like in Boston he jumped off the ship earlier knowing it was going down. Left Jed Hoyer to do this dirty work.

For the fact that so many think he walks on water, yeah....he is overrated. Agree to disagree.
- SteveRain

It always kills me that so many people see the word “overrated” and somehow take it to mean “worst ever”.

yeah, but if you watch highlights of the "old days" 75% of the goals scored would be considered "soft" today. Guys teeing up above the circles and going 5 hole because you had a stand up goalie with pads as wide as common day shin pads.

That's before you get into the the focus on shot blocking from defensemen and forwards.

How far back are you going? 80s/early 90s guys were potting 40+ goals at will.
- SteveRain

I am talking Orr's era, mid 60's to mid 70's.

when baseball capped the international signing amount....theo lost a lot of steam.

I believe he's overrated.....

1. He didn't draft all those players that contributed
2. Maddon gets as much, if not MORE, credit for them winning in 2016 by navigating the day to day pressure of what you mentioned. Something Baker and Sweet Lou couldn't do.
3. Those cubs will IMO always be compared to the Ditka Bears....tons of talent, but only once....great, but should have won multiple times like Jordan's Bulls and Toews/Kane Hawks did.
4.Just like in Boston he jumped off the ship earlier knowing it was going down. Left Jed Hoyer to do this dirty work.

For the fact that so many think he walks on water, yeah....he is overrated. Agree to disagree.
- SteveRain

There is a middle ground somewhere. He followed a similar script in Boston. Won a WS there after a long, long drought, but then made a series of moves that strapped the club with big contracts for under performing players and also decimated a farm system. There are things he does well, and others, not so much. His success with the Cubs comes from believing and following a philosophy to build a team, and he was successful at it. The fact is, they were very competitive for a six year period, even if they only won one WS. It's like the Braves of the 90's who won something like 13 of 14 division championships, but only one WS. As a front man he is among the best. Great speaker, rarely puts his foot in his mouth, and somehow gets people to believe what he is saying, regardless of actual results.

The league adjusts quickly, other teams like the Astros, Nats, etc. adapted to the power pitchers and one true outcome hitters quicker than the Cubs and Epstein.

It always kills me that so many people see the word “overrated” and somehow take it to mean “worst ever”.
- Ogilthorpe2

agreed......was he a very good gm for boston and the cubs? Sure....

Was he an all time executive? I don't think so.

Didn't develop one pitcher in 9 years. Not one starter drafting high a few years. That's hard to do. Nearly impossible. A blindfolded monkey throwing darts would hit on something. Mark Burhle was a 40th round pick or something like that? Should have signed Castellanos cheap so obvious he was their best hitter and let somebody else go last year. Bad moves after bad moves. Hoyer left to be the fall guy. Make no mistake, Epstein was calling the shots.
- rpeters01

Wasn't his MO. He always said he would draft hitters and position players and he could buy/trade for pitching when needed.

Does anybody remember the sports competition they had on ABC in the 70's? Athlete's from every sport? Hull in his 30's came in 2nd to OJ Simpson in the 100 yard dash. He beat all the other fast football and baseball players.
- rpeters01

Probably a good thing for Bobby that he “let” OJ win

Quintana is mentally weak.
- rpeters01

Kinda like that wreckage guy.

yeah, but if you watch highlights of the "old days" 75% of the goals scored would be considered "soft" today. Guys teeing up above the circles and going 5 hole because you had a stand up goalie with pads as wide as common day shin pads.

That's before you get into the the focus on shot blocking from defensemen and forwards.

How far back are you going? 80s/early 90s guys were potting 40+ goals at will.
- SteveRain

Let’s go the other way. Let’s take a player today and take him back to 1975. Do you think McDavid would last a season? Ovie might be OK but being Russian he’d be a prime target too. Most current NHL players would have no clue how to cope the physicality and stupidity of 70s hockey. And yes most goals were scored along the ice until analytics showed goalies how to play their position better. And analytics showed coaches players tendencies to better stop them, except of course the players who could think and process the game more quickly.

There is a middle ground somewhere. He followed a similar script in Boston. Won a WS there after a long, long drought, but then made a series of moves that strapped the club with big contracts for under performing players and also decimated a farm system. There are things he does well, and others, not so much. His success with the Cubs comes from believing and following a philosophy to build a team, and he was successful at it. The fact is, they were very competitive for a six year period, even if they only won one WS. It's like the Braves of the 90's who won something like 13 of 14 division championships, but only one WS. As a front man he is among the best. Great speaker, rarely puts his foot in his mouth, and somehow gets people to believe what he is saying, regardless of actual results.

The league adjusts quickly, other teams like the Astros, Nats, etc. adapted to the power pitchers and one true outcome hitters quicker than the Cubs and Epstein.
- TheTrob

To win a world series over a 100 year drought is an incredible accomplishment.

Just like the Hawks winning after their drought, people who minimize those accomplishments i think they just don't understand the pressure the team faces.

At least they didn't cheat like the Astros did or the Patriots

scoring race....I agree.

Rest.....in today's game the gape between skill set of the best vs worst is a lot closer than it was in 50-60 years ago. that's my point to this. McDavid can fly....do we think he can skate around by himself with the puck and kill an entire penalty? Doubtful.

Just like I don't think Gretzky could come close to hitting 92 goals in today's game...why? Players and goalies are better.

Now if we put McDavid or McKinnon or makar or Ovechkin or Crosby back in the 70s or 80s do they produce at a higher clip? I bet they do.
- SteveRain

Goalie equipment is way bigger and lighter too. Compare a pic of a current tenders equipment to Dryden, Esposito, Belfour, Bannerman, or any goalie of gretzkys era

To win a world series over a 100 year drought is an incredible accomplishment.

Just like the Hawks winning after their drought, people who minimize those accomplishments i think they just don't understand the pressure the team faces.

At least they didn't cheat like the Astros did or the Patriots
- BetweenTheDots

As far as you know….

he is one of the most overrated executives in all of sports. all his guys hit at once in 2016.....and then.....he just made asinine trades and signings after that.

Jason Heyward (pre 2016)
Tyler Chatwood
Jose Quintana

Awful.
- SteveRain

100% in agreement here. I also believe in the theory that Theo didnt leave....he was fired. If I was Tom Ricketts I would have done the same thing. SR hit some of the points on why. Let's not forget his 1st round flops in Happ, Almora, and Schwarber for the most part.....Theo's savior was going to be Bryce Harper, and Ricketts said No !!!

Thank God that 2016 team won it all. Now we can compare them to the 1 and done 85 Bears.
..

Give the old greats the same training support during their development that today’s greats have gotten and these comparisons are totally different.

I don't believe that. There were any number of smaller players back in those days. Kane would gone through the systems and adjusted to the more physical aspects of those days.

When talking about hockey in the pre-expansion era, don't forget 3 teams were basically farm clubs for the other three. The whole territorial rights gave Montreal, Toronto and the Wings an advantage. Bruins, Rangers and Hawks were cannon fodder for alot of those years
- Elbows15

If you were small in those days you needed exceptional speed and a nasty streak. Kane would have been very fast in those days but I doubt he has any nasty in him. I think It’s unlikely he’d have made it past Bantam. So much talent was wasted on oversized monsters who had almost no talent. I saw it first hand trying out for a junior B team in 1978. The first tryouts were completely about separating the goons from the boys. From running the gauntlet to retrieving pucks in the corner. It wasn’t even remotely about skill but if you had some of that too it was OK.

agreed......was he a very good gm for boston and the cubs? Sure....

Was he an all time executive? I don't think so.
- SteveRain

I can argue he wasn't that great for the Cubs. Boston I don't know enough about.

A lot of teams were going after Heyward who'd a thunk he'd forget how to hit. Hard to blame Theo for that one. But, Chatwood was already a budget reclamation project because Theo had spent too much buying pitchers because he failed to develop them. Quintana came because of that failure as well.
- rpeters01

I didn't know it was so easy to win a championship in sports.

Overrated? Not one but took 2 franchise starving for a world series title and (frank)ing delivered.

Thank God he traded for Chapman otherwise we wouldn't of one in 2016

Not 1 but 2 franchises and he's overrated, unbelievable

To win a world series over a 100 year drought is an incredible accomplishment.

Just like the Hawks winning after their drought, people who minimize those accomplishments i think they just don't understand the pressure the team faces.

At least they didn't cheat like the Astros did or the Patriots
- BetweenTheDots

Cubs won once. Hawks three of six. Theo is a genius who can do no wrong. Stan is a clown. Makes total sense.

Wasn't his MO. He always said he would draft hitters and position players and he could buy/trade for pitching when needed.
- TheTrob

Yes but that no longer worked when top pitchers went from $25 to over $40 million a year and junk pitchers $15-20.

Cubs won once. Hawks three of six. Theo is a genius who can do no wrong. Stan is a clown. Makes total sense.
- mohel

Careful you'll get banned from here.

It's tough to compare guys across ERA's. So much changes in terms of Rules, style of play, equipment, etc. Orr in reality was like the Gayle Sayers of Hockey. His Career was in reality only about 8.5 years, and cur short because of the knee injuries.

Whether you think Gretzky was the greatest or not, he (and the Oilers) revolutionized hockey. He was a product of his Era as much as his Era was a result of him.

Bobby Orr is 11th on the all-time defeseman scoring list in only 657 career games.