Well, given that those multiple chances proved not to come true, I would look at what went wrong, and avoid repeating the mistakes they made. I would rather base my model on those who didn't actually fail.

Would you offer up Andy Reid's Eagles of the 2000s as a model for a football franchise? 3 conference games, 1 superbowl appearance....
- PT21

I would like to have the success and obviously win a title. The point is if you are a top team for a decade that means you have ten chances to legitimately win the cup. If you are building or managing a team that is what you want.

The Bruins kept the right players and drafted effectively over the last decade. Every team in the league should strive to do that. In the last ten years, 1 cup, three finals appearances and have made the playoffs all 10 seasons.

What I find that you and Hextall271 saying though seems essentially: roll the die, shake it up.

But there is no reason why a shake-up in and of itself would improve things, is there?
- PT21

Look at it like a recipe….we have a lot of good ingredients but it still doesn’t taste right….so maybe we just need to make some adjustments. Add some Ellis, Tarasenko and maybe a bit of Savard…..take out the Patrick, Myers and the Vorecek and the taste might be a hell of a lot better….if it’s not then maybe you get your wish and we throw the whole thing out…but I’d much rather my approach as a long term fan.

Price has half a foot and 40 lbs on Tony Dbag... pretty sure he'd cave his face in.
- Tomahawk

That may be a teachable moment for Tony…if he’s capable of learning.

You’re high, that Johansson contract is HORRIBLE.
- ClaudeFather

Christ almighty. Ryan johansson is garbage, especially at his cap hit. That's dead weight that no GM who values his job would take on

Ok so if tank does get invited and can't play we can always LTIR his cap hit and replace him
It's better to LTIR them have to pay 8.25m for 3 more years

I say go for it if the docs clear him

These are cliches. That is true for every team. They remind me of Bill Walton's commentary from the 1990s. "All (insert team name) needs is a basket!"

Now, lets be specific and break up the Flyers situation in 2 parts:

A. 21-24 (3 seasons)
B. 25-27 (3 seasons)
.
- PT21

Sorry, you lost me after A and B, but I want to address your statement above anyway. These are NOT cliches, these are the specific areas THIS Flyers team needs to improve upon if they wish to once again be real contenders. This Flyers team IMO are too slow, they lack players that through speed alone can get to pucks first, make something out of nothing and force turnovers. This is one of the key elements of the Islanders team that has got to the final 4 two seasons in a row. This Flyers team IMO have to many pass first players and not enough players that have a shoot first mentality. I have been stating this on this forum LONG before this has now become a popular criticism by Meltzer and others pundits that follow this Flyers team. Jake, G, TK, Hayes, JVR ... and their Dmen can't get pucks through to the net. No one on this team wants to shoot the puck, which IMO is the main reason their PP Sucks! This Flyers team IMO was not tough t play against. Their defenseman are soft, and they have very few forwards with size that actually want to use it. No team that plays the Flyers fear playing them from a physical standpoint, and this more than ANYTHING else is NOT Flyers Hockey! So there are no clichés here, these are facts, bonafide facts from someone that painfully watched every game this past season and evaluated what I saw based on my knowledge and experience of the sport, and listening to others that follow the team that I respect.

Look at it like a recipe….we have a lot of good ingredients but it still doesn’t taste right….so maybe we just need to make some adjustments. Add some Ellis, Tarasenko and maybe a bit of Savard…..take out the Patrick, Myers and the Vorecek and the taste might be a hell of a lot better….if it’s not then maybe you get your wish and we throw the whole thing out…but I’d much rather my approach as a long term fan.
- landros 2

First of all and btw, we are just jawing, so don't take any of this personally, even the aggressive parts, as many here mysteriously do.

You mentioned recipe. Do you cook a lot with the philosophy: nah, this doesn't taste right, Lets substitute lemongrass for sugar? Or throw in some vinegar?

In particular, what evidence do we have that Tarasenko will provide the sort of culture change that Voracek apparently contributed negatively to?

I would like to have the success and obviously win a title. The point is if you are a top team for a decade that means you have ten chances to legitimately win the cup. If you are building or managing a team that is what you want.

The Bruins kept the right players and drafted effectively over the last decade. Every team in the league should strive to do that. In the last ten years, 1 cup, three finals appearances and have made the playoffs all 10 seasons.
- mickel25

When you look at the Krejci and Bergeron contracts. Bergeron's is still ongoing. Krejci's just ended. They're gold standard contracts. Extremely well done. They should be part of the slide presentation in the contract negotiation classes in GM school.

By the way, only two seasons left on the Pasternak contract. Boston better win the Cup in the next two years or it's a bad contract.

I would like to have the success and obviously win a title. The point is if you are a top team for a decade that means you have ten chances to legitimately win the cup. If you are building or managing a team that is what you want.

The Bruins kept the right players and drafted effectively over the last decade. Every team in the league should strive to do that. In the last ten years, 1 cup, three finals appearances and have made the playoffs all 10 seasons.
- mickel25

Sure, and that is certainly better than not having a contending team. But it is not better than the ones who both competed and won in the same span, is it?

Here is my question: why base your model on those who came close but never smoked the cigar? How many long term contracts to players in their late twenties or older (at the time of signing) did teams that actually won the cup (after such signings) give out?

First of all and btw, we are just jawing, so don't take any of this personally, even the aggressive parts, as many here mysteriously do.

You mentioned recipe. Do you cook a lot with the philosophy: nah, this doesn't taste right, Lets substitute lemongrass for sugar? Or throw in some vinegar?

In particular, what evidence do we have that Tarasenko will provide the sort of culture change that Voracek apparently contributed negatively to?
- PT21

Why aren't other posters "just jawing" when using what you label as cliché's.?

ADA could in theory be taken and again in theory would be a better selection, but how would he react living in the land of CHAZ.
- Glak18

Best post all day
He can join the pow wow at the CHOP right in the heart of CHAZ
That could be a reality tv show

First of all and btw, we are just jawing, so don't take any of this personally, even the aggressive parts, as many here mysteriously do.

You mentioned recipe. Do you cook a lot with the philosophy: nah, this doesn't taste right, Lets substitute lemongrass for sugar? Or throw in some vinegar?

In particular, what evidence do we have that Tarasenko will provide the sort of culture change that Voracek apparently contributed negatively to?
- PT21

There are no guarantees in trades….did the Flyers know John Leclair would turn into a perennial 50 goal scorer when they traded for hIm ? Not a chance. Do the Flyers know Ellis will stay healthy? No….or are they 100 % sure Patrick won’t all of a sudden figure it out ? Of course not….but what we do know is what we watched last year with the current group…and that just didn’t work.

Sorry, you lost me after A and B, but I want to address your statement above anyway. These are NOT cliches, these are the specific areas THIS Flyers team needs to improve upon if they wish to once again be real contenders. This Flyers team IMO are too slow, they lack players that through speed alone can get to pucks first, make something out of nothing and force turnovers. This is one of the key elements of the Islanders team that has got to the final 4 two seasons in a row. This Flyers team IMO have to many pass first players and not enough players that have a shoot first mentality. I have been stating this on this forum LONG before this has now become a popular criticism by Meltzer and others pundits that follow this Flyers team. Jake, G, TK, Hayes, JVR ... and their Dmen can't get pucks through to the net. No one on this team wants to shoot the puck, which IMO is the main reason their PP Sucks! This Flyers team IMO was not tough t play against. Their defenseman are soft, and they have very few forwards with size that actually want to use it. No team that plays the Flyers fear playing them from a physical standpoint, and this more than ANYTHING else is NOT Flyers Hockey! So there are no clichés here, these are facts, bonafide facts from someone that painfully watched every game this past season and evaluated what I saw based on my knowledge and experience of the sport, and listening to others that follow the team that I respect.
- jd250

That's part of the problem, and I am not being snide.

The problems you mention: is there any team that wouldn't benefit from adding more speed, grit, getting pucks to the net etc? Those are all valuable traits, and in as much as no team is perfect, they would all benefit from such traits. That's what I meant by cliches, though upon reflection that was too harsh.

Sure, and that is certainly better than not having a contending team. But it is not better than the ones who both competed and won in the same span, is it?

Here is my question: why base your model on those who came close but never smoked the cigar? How many long term contracts to players in their late twenties or older (at the time of signing) did teams that actually won the cup (after such signings) give out?
- PT21

Committing to the right players and drafting/developing consistently well is always the right model.

There are no guarantees in trades….did the Flyers know John Leclair would turn into a perennial 50 goal scorer when they traded for hIm ? Not a chance. Do the Flyers know Ellis will stay healthy? No….or are they 100 % sure Patrick won’t all of a sudden figure it out ? Of course not….but what we do know is what we watched last year with the current group…and that just didn’t work.
- landros 2

Sounds like PT wants a paradigm shift in team-wide theory.

Not saying it CANT work, but how can you possibly quantify what this argument is even about?

It's all semantics.

Anyway, the Ellis trade HATERS make no sense. We have no IDEA what will happen in 3-6 years.

-he might not deteriorate as quick as some think ...
-there might be another buyout in the next CBA....
-he might be a BARGAIN for a few years....
-we might be able to flip him if OTHER guys pan-out ...

Why aren't other posters "just jawing" when using what you label as cliché's.?
- MJL

Have the Flyers offered you a position?

That's one way of looking at it. The other is they hung on to some aging superstars too long. Their perpetual contention meant they picked too late. Their salary cap commitments meant they never were able to round off a top heavy, aging team.
- PT21

lol, it’s an oxymoron, but some in here might be outsmarting themselves.

There are no guarantees in trades….did the Flyers know John Leclair would turn into a perennial 50 goal scorer when they traded for hIm ? Not a chance. Do the Flyers know Ellis will stay healthy? No….or are they 100 % sure Patrick won’t all of a sudden figure it out ? Of course not….but what we do know is what we watched last year with the current group…and that just didn’t work.
- landros 2

There is no guarantee is one thing. But to say there is nothing but luck is something else. People frequently conflate it here.

The part that is not luck is therefore within reason by definition. I am trying to hone in on that part. I just don't understand how this current profile of team, with age, performance and contract, can remotely be considered on a viable path for cup in the indefinite future.

Will Ellis make this team better, much better? Sure. But he will not make it better enough to contend. And when the young stars pan out (if they do), he will likely not be worth that contract.

lol, it’s an oxymoron, but some in here might be outsmarting themselves.
- Flyers1218

Sorry, what was the oxymoron? I am afraid I missed it.

These are cliches. That is true for every team. They remind me of Bill Walton's commentary from the 1990s. "All (insert team name) needs is a basket!"

Now, lets be specific and break up the Flyers situation in 2 parts:

A. 21-24 (3 seasons)
B. 25-27 (3 seasons)

Period A:

Do you realistically expect, based on what you saw last season that in period A Flyers have a shot at winning? To remind you, we have a very young goalie who couldn't handle a difficult regular season let alone a post-season, a winger who regressed mightily, a captain who is a 2nd line player playing as a first line winger because there are no better options, a streaky sniper, a 1st pair D who had a very unimpressive season and said he is satisfied, a promising but undersized winger who loses board battles, a 2nd pairing D who has significant physical compete issues, and another winger just recovering from cancer. There is not a legit player who will scare anyone in the playoffs as of now, who has the game breaking kind of skill a Barzal/Heiskanen/Makar/Hedman/even Suzuki possess. Nor is anyone on track to become so in the next 3 years, for there are too many variables to all jell at the same time so quickly

Period B:

Now, assume some young players do develop into stars, which is best case scenario. Bee, Foerster, TK, and maybe Provy moves into Noriss conversation. Even than, they would still have Couturier at 31, Hayes 32, Ellis 33 to start period B. They are together 25% of cap. They are not shot, but they are surely not improved, and probably in decline, however slight. No team has ever won with this sort of profile.

In these 6 years years btw, because of good but not great personnel, we pick late. Chances of picking scary players who can immediately contribute to change dynamic above is low. (not zero, but low).

Now, you give me a path/plan, in this terrain, of Flyers winning that is not based on irrational, odds-defying hope.
- PT21

It’s not cliche. The Flyers need to get faster and tougher to play against. That’s literally what needs to happen.

Committing to the right players and drafting/developing consistently well is always the right model.
- mickel25

Isn't this another cliche? Because you certainly don't want to commit to, or draft and develop, the wrong players, do you?

Ok so if tank does get invited and can't play we can always LTIR his cap hit and replace him
It's better to LTIR them have to pay 8.25m for 3 more years

I say go for it if the docs clear him
- Bob Habib

In a flat cap environment, using LTIR is problematic. Especially if you have good young player on EL deals.

Here is my question: why base your model on those who came close but never smoked the cigar? How many long term contracts to players in their late twenties or older (at the time of signing) did teams that actually won the cup (after such signings) give out?
- PT21

Many

Isn't this another cliche? Because you certainly don't want to commit to, or draft and develop, the wrong players, do you?
- PT21

Nope. It’s literally what you should do. Drafting poorly and keeping the wrong players will lead to a lack of success.

That's part of the problem, and I am not being snide.


- PT21

Actually he was just being polite. You're insinuating that he's not smart enough to understand what you wrote. Here is a hint. Nobody has commented on that and nobody likely will. We're just regular sports fans on a sports message board using clichés. Nobody is interested in that nonsense.