Indeed I do. The Blues run in 2019. You may not know this, but Schenn, the clear cut 1c, actually played less than ROR, the 2C.

Beams sweetly at MJL.

Now, you are freeloading, so I regret without proof of payment, or ned records, I must dippy do from you.
- PT21

Nothing to do with the matchup that you claim is the reasoning. By every measure O'Reilly was the Blues 1C.

Here is where Couturier ranks among centers for the last 4 seasons.

Goals 104 (tied for 13th with Mike Hoffman and Sidney Crosby)
Assists 148 (19th)
Points (16th)
+- +53 ranked 10th
p/pg .91 (ranked 22 tied with Kopitar, Kuznetsov, and Backstrom)
Even strength goals 81 (ranked 7th)
even strength points 197 (tied for 7th with John Tavares)
FO% 56.6




As an aside they still list Giroux as a center and he is 7th in points over the past 4 seasons)

Here is where Couturier ranks among centers for the last 4 seasons.

Goals 104 (tied for 13th with Mike Hoffman and Sidney Crosby)
Assists 148 (19th)
Points (16th)
+- +53 ranked 10th
p/pg .91 (ranked 22 tied with Kopitar, Kuznetsov, and Backstrom)
Even strength goals 81 (ranked 7th)
even strength points 197 (tied for 7th with John Tavares)
FO% 56.6




As an aside they still list Giroux as a center and he is 7th in points over the past 4 seasons)
- MBFlyerfan

Shows what everyone knows. Couturier is a monster at ES. If he ever is able to put up points on the PP consistently, he'd shoot right up that list on NHL.com.

I'm not sure why they waste time playing the games in the playoffs. Why don't they just go with who NHL.com predicts to win the Cup?

There is a huge difference between saying “not easy” and looking into the Flyers recent history at the position and hearing “why bother.” What attempts have you seen in the last ten years to obtain two top-pairing caliber defenseman to play together? Anything look like a plan for the long haul?

I don’t want to hear excuses. It’s too hard…meanwhile don’t draft a single RHD in the first two rounds of the draft and talk about the low availability and high cost to acquire. If two-thirds have done it, it can be done.

The team’s drafting at the position points to a either a flaw in planning or not carrying a plan to completion or not being flexible enough to trade assets to correct a projection error of fit and timing.
- NC Flyers Fan

Thanks Hextall

Here is where Couturier ranks among centers for the last 4 seasons.

Goals 104 (tied for 13th with Mike Hoffman and Sidney Crosby)
Assists 148 (19th)
Points (16th)
+- +53 ranked 10th
p/pg .91 (ranked 22 tied with Kopitar, Kuznetsov, and Backstrom)
Even strength goals 81 (ranked 7th)
even strength points 197 (tied for 7th with John Tavares)
FO% 56.6




As an aside they still list Giroux as a center and he is 7th in points over the past 4 seasons)
- MBFlyerfan

so Couts is an Average 1C for points, and top 5 defensively. So overall grade above average 1C

Thanks Hextall
- bradster

Thanks Hextall. LOL. Actually the weakness in the organization for drafting and developing NHL defenseman occurred when Holmgren was the GM and before, not Hextall. Once Hextall was hired, he began drafting talented defenseman and building up the defense corps. Hextall drafted 10 defenseman in his time as Flyers GM. 6 LH and 4 RH.

so Couts is an Average 1C for points, and top 5 defensively. So overall grade above average 1C
- bradster

That seems like a fair assessment.

Thanks Hextall
- bradster

Sadly, it wasn’t just Hextall.

That seems like a fair assessment.
- MBFlyerfan

yep

so Couts is an Average 1C for points, and top 5 defensively. So overall grade above average 1C
- bradster

Reasonable. Once you get past the top stars, Couturier is as good as anybody.

Thanks Hextall. LOL. Actually the weakness in the organization for drafting and developing NHL defenseman occurred why Holmgren was the GM, not Hextall. Once Hextall was hired, he began drafting talented defenseman and building up the defense corps. Hextall drafted 10 defenseman in his time as Flyers GM. 6 LH and 4 RH.
- MJL

Again, we judge things differently. if the need is a RHD, I hardly count drafting a RHD in the 6th round being prudent. But you are fine as long as a drafts one. We just have a different grading scale.

Sadly, it wasn’t just Hextall.
- NC Flyers Fan

No it wasnt, but he was the GM that was draft focused and trading players for picks, and trading down for picks. And still didnt draft a RHD high.

Hommer was more focused on staying good, and trading picks for players.

Again, we judge things differently. if the need is a RHD, I hardly count drafting a RHD in the 6th round being prudent. But you are fine as long as a drafts one. We just have a different grading scale.
- bradster

The issue is the availability of RH defenseman. For example, if you have the 8th overall pick, are you going to pick a defenseman because he is RH when there are a bunch of LH defenseman who are scouted as significantly higher potential players? Finding a top RH defenseman is not easy.

The issue is the availability of RH defenseman. For example, if you have the 8th overall pick, are you going to pick a defenseman because he is RH when there are a bunch of LH defenseman who are scouted as significantly higher potential players? Finding a top RH defenseman is not easy.
- MJL

no, but id gladly reach down 10-12 spots on my 2nd round pick to get one

Usually the two would be the same, but not always would be my guess. I explained why not above. In the case of a defense first team like the Blues, where they rely on balanced team scoring, it may be more important to deny the opposing team's clear cut top line scoring opportunities than provide them for your own first-line center.
- PT21

Your argument might be easier to follow if Schenn had more offensive production (even strength points and PP points). Unfortunately, O’Reilly had him beat there as well as ice time. Oh, ROR with more PP ice time as well.

Here is where Couturier ranks among centers for the last 4 seasons.

Even strength goals 81 (ranked 7th)
even strength points 197 (tied for 7th with John Tavares)
FO% 56.6




As an aside they still list Giroux as a center and he is 7th in points over the past 4 seasons)
- MBFlyerfan

Isn't that a misleading use of stats though:

1. ES includes OT and 4-on-4, which is not typically what we mean by ES, so why not use 5-on-5 stats explicitly?
2. Using total points/goals at the peak of Couts' career for that span penalizes new guys like Barzal, Petersson, Point etc. They are arguably better already but will have less points in total.
3. A guy could have a lot of points simply because he plays a lot of mins. (Tomahawk mentioned this in reference to Eichel once).

Here are Cout's 5-on-5 stats and ranking for the last 3 years (max window allowed by site for free service), and prorated over mins played. I set a cut off of 1800 TOI played total over the 3 seasons, which eliminates the fringe guys who may have distorted stats. What are left is legit comparisons. I may have indeed missed some more legit comparisons that will dip his rank further.

I weed out Marchand, Stamkos, Panarin, Marner, Guentzel, Huberdeau, TK and Nylander as guys who have played wing during this span.

That leaves Couturier the 18th best center in 5-on-5. Which is pretty much where every external survey ranks him.

Please spare us your fantasies of incest.

But, always a pleasure to oblige.

I don't have a car.
- PT21

I thought you weren’t responding to me Little Shelly. I think I’m going to flag you with your hatefulness. No reason to accuse someone with such a foul false accusation . I hope nobody that’s been subjected to that comes on this site.

Isn't that a misleading use of stats though:

1. ES includes OT and 4-on-4, which is not typically what we mean by ES, so why not use 5-on-5 stats explicitly?
2. Using total points/goals at the peak of Couts' career for that span penalizes new guys like Barzal, Petersson, Point etc. They are arguably better already but will have less points in total.
3. A guy could have a lot of points simply because he plays a lot of mins. (Tomahawk mentioned this in reference to Eichel once).

Here are Cout's 5-on-5 stats and ranking for the last 3 years (max window allowed by site for free service), and prorated over mins played. I set a cut off of 1800 TOI played total over the 3 seasons, which eliminates the fringe guys who may have distorted stats. What are left is legit comparisons. I may have indeed missed some more legit comparisons that will dip his rank further.

I weed out Marchand, Stamkos, Panarin, Marner, Guentzel, Huberdeau, TK and Nylander as guys who have played wing during this span.

That leaves Couturier the 18th best center in 5-on-5. Which is pretty much where every external survey ranks him.
- PT21

Your link takes you to a table of many listed stats. Which stat did you filter to come to the ranking of 18th for Couturier?

Barzal is not a better player than Couturier. Petersson likely will be in the future and is only 22 but he's not better right now. Point is better now.

No it wasnt, but he was the GM that was draft focused and trading players for picks, and trading down for picks. And still didnt draft a RHD high.

Hommer was more focused on staying good, and trading picks for players.
- bradster

Actually the drafting gap goes several decades back, but the last 20 years are all that is relevant to drafted players in the league right now.

This is just a wild speculation….but is it possible the plan was two left handed defenseman on the top pairing (one playing his off side)? Then LHD - RHD on the second and third pairings. The timing and fit do not appear to have worked out. The OEL rumors are interesting in that way also. I think he has played the right side before.

It's not. You replied to a source who doesn't even believe that Couturier is a #1 NHL center and repeatedly posts inaccurate point totals for the player. He doesn't have the facts.
- MJL

Yet per usual you can’t list the 1c you’d take coots over considering age pending contract and the whole package. Coots 1 or 2 good(not great) statically seasons out of 10 in the league squeaking about point totals. Yes surely coots at his absolute best is good enough at 1c. And exactly how far has that gotten philly? Spare me the boo hoo about d play goalie play blah blah blah. Isle in final 4 again without greatness in these areas. Yet Barzal much younger and better and cheaper. What about aho? Point? Inaccurate my behind. I’m gonna love so watching coots get that big contract and NEVER hit 2 “good seasons statically “ hopefully it’s not with philly. And oreilly? Please. Look at the d on that team and most importantly Bennington played out of this world that playoffs. What has blues done since? How’d oreilly and blues look this year? Exactly.

Oh and I’d take Suzuki in a heartbeat over coots and so would anyone with half a brain and at least 1 working eyeball. Do you not see that you need speed and skill in today’s nhl? Coots selke officially over. He’s a great 2c don’t get me wrong. But you’ll never win with him as a 1c

Isn't that a misleading use of stats though:

1. ES includes OT and 4-on-4, which is not typically what we mean by ES, so why not use 5-on-5 stats explicitly?
2. Using total points/goals at the peak of Couts' career for that span penalizes new guys like Barzal, Petersson, Point etc. They are arguably better already but will have less points in total.
3. A guy could have a lot of points simply because he plays a lot of mins. (Tomahawk mentioned this in reference to Eichel once).

Here are Cout's 5-on-5 stats and ranking for the last 3 years (max window allowed by site for free service), and prorated over mins played. I set a cut off of 1800 TOI played total over the 3 seasons, which eliminates the fringe guys who may have distorted stats. What are left is legit comparisons. I may have indeed missed some more legit comparisons that will dip his rank further.

I weed out Marchand, Stamkos, Panarin, Marner, Guentzel, Huberdeau, TK and Nylander as guys who have played wing during this span.

That leaves Couturier the 18th best center in 5-on-5. Which is pretty much where every external survey ranks him.
- PT21

OK Sheldon. You must be a joy at parties. If you ever got invited to one that is.

someone on here likes to take a dig at couts saying he is an average 1c. but i dont think thats a negative, its better than half the 1cs .not sure what more he wants.
- bradster

It’s not a “dig” it’s just simply saying you don’t win with average at 1c position. Coots slotted properly is a great 2c. Top 3 in the league. That’s a compliment. It’s not his fault he’s played at 1c.

No one. That's exactly the point. There will be a gaping, beautifully designed hole in that spot which we won't fill for hopefully 3 odd years.
- PT21

Hayes does exactly what coots does. Hayes at 2c defensive role. Pk killer. And some offense. Is coots better? Yes absolutely. There’s no doubt about it… the question is how much. If we had a true stud 1c and roled healthy Hayes 2c people would instantly forget about coots.

Actually the drafting gap goes several decades back, but the last 20 years are all that is relevant to drafted players in the league right now.

This is just a wild speculation….but is it possible the plan was two left handed defenseman on the top pairing (one playing his off side)? Then LHD - RHD on the second and third pairings. The timing and fit do not appear to have worked out. The OEL rumors are interesting in that way also. I think he has played the right side before.
- NC Flyers Fan

some guys can play both sides, so its possible. I have no interest in OEL. but i read a rumour today the flyers are interested in Soderstrom from AZ. IF they could grab him, he wouldnt cost as much because is still a prospect, but maybe a 1st and patrick ?? Id rather a 1st and Ginning though lol

Your argument might be easier to follow if Schenn had more offensive production (even strength points and PP points). Unfortunately, O’Reilly had him beat there as well as ice time. Oh, ROR with more PP ice time as well.
- NC Flyers Fan

Its not "my argument". It is the conventional one.

The designation 1c is usually an informal one, and it usually implies the line with the most scoring potential, and the center on it is not the same by definition as the center who has the most mins 5 on 5 (though usually the two will be the same).

Examples abound, honestly.

Your argument is not with me. It is with all the sites who mention Schenn as the 1c in that playoffs and the conventional usage of that term. This year, Nelson has played more 5-on-5 than Barzal. Barzal is listed as 1c.