I think everyone will be disappointed with the return for Jake. Plus, we would potentially have to eat some of his salary. We relied on the young players contributing more this season and they let us down. We are asking for more of the same next season. Plus Seattle might ask for a pick or prospect in exchange for taking a vet.

What I'm trying to say is even if we ship some of the dead weight out, we still need to look to our younger guys to step the f up.
- cdearth23

I don't think there is any doubt we will be retaining salary on any (unlikely) deal involving Voracek.

Right...they achieved what they should've, they got franchise players with their high draft picks, but their management didn't have the ability to surround those core franchise players with a supporting cast, which is the primary issues in both Edmonton and Buffalo.
- DraftandDestroy

Exactly. But people look at lack of success + tanking to mean tanking led to lack of success. That's not true.

My issue with NoPa is his compete level. He has yet to assert himself in games. I can't question the skill set because it hasn't really been on full display yet. If he had a little more fire, he could be a solid top 6 forward IMO. Top 2 centerman on this team.

Imagine if he had the same intensity as TK. I don't think we've seen everything from NoPa yet. I'm ready to give him one more year to prove it.
- cdearth23

100 %….he plays timid. He was way more assertive in JR.

100 %….he plays timid. He was way more assertive in JR.
- landros 2

And even showed flashes of it in his first two Flyers seasons.

And even showed flashes of it in his first two Flyers seasons.
- MBFlyerfan

Thats what i keep hearing, but i didnt see any flashes.

I am hoping this is correlated with his fear of being hit in the head, which I strongly suspect is correlated with fear of PCS.

Just a hope.
- PT21

I thought he played the same the first two years as well. It’s not like he has ever really asserted himself for an extended period…..and have I missed something about NoPa’s year absence? Are we now saying it was a concussion and not a migraine issue?

Thats what i keep hearing, but i didnt see any flashes.
- bradster

I thought he played the same the first two years as well. It’s not like he has ever really asserted himself for an extended period…..and have I missed something about NoPa’s year absence? Are we now saying it was a concussion and not a migraine issue?
- landros 2

No, that is just him saying it.

Exactly. But people look at lack of success + tanking to mean tanking led to lack of success. That's not true.
- PT21

A lot of work goes into a successful rebuild, tanking for a top pick is only one aspect of that.

Look at the Capitals, took them years of tweaking after they took Ovechkin, Backstrom, Alzner first, fourth & fifth overall, they had a strong team for a decade and then they finally found the right combination.

Didn't help that they had to go up against a team in Pittsburgh who had several top draft picks and found success quickly. Crosby was first overall, Malkin was second overall, Fleury was first overall, Staal was third overall and Whitney was fifth overall.

I thought he played the same the first two years as well. It’s not like he has ever really asserted himself for an extended period…..and have I missed something about NoPa’s year absence? Are we now saying it was a concussion and not a migraine issue?
- landros 2

He was much more assertive (watch the very first goal of that video I posted), though some big suit (Dreger? McKenzie?) made a comment about his 'frightening passivity' even then.

And no, you have not missed anything. Just a theory some of us here (me, Swami) have about what was really going on. Funny how the migraines went from ever present to complete vanishing (or at least, never rearing enough to miss even a game) during the course of a densely packed season. That kind of stuff is more amenable to a PCS explanation.

A lot of work goes into a successful rebuild, tanking for a top pick is only one aspect of that.

Look at the Capitals, took them years of tweaking after they took Ovechkin, Backstrom, Alzner first, fourth & fifth overall, they had a strong team for a decade and then they finally found the right combination.

Didn't help that they had to go up against a team in Pittsburgh who had several top draft picks and found success quickly. Crosby was first overall, Malkin was second overall, Fleury was first overall, Staal was third overall.
- DraftandDestroy

Yes, that's what I have been trying to say here.

Tanking (alone) does not mean success happened. But success means tanking happened to SOME extent.

- PT21

Too bad goalies all know high glove is his only move. It was good while it lasted.

Hopefully he gets a full summer of training and realizes that he needs to nut up.

I agree with everyone wanting to move vets, but other teams have to agree to the deals. We can probably package Jake/JVR in a deal (whoever isn't selected by Seattle) but what's the return? Who replaces the point production? Who replaces the laziness on D? Kidding.

I always liked the teams that had veteran forward depth. That's why I didn't mind Nate Thompson and Pitlick last year. Jimmy Dowd, Joel Otto, etc. It has to be a good mix. Not everyone in the line-up should or will score 30 goals.
- cdearth23

First you are assuming Jake or JVR is going to be selected by Seattle?? Well there is 0% chance they take either unless Flyers sweeten the pot and to take Jake it would take a lot of sweetener. Second you say we can package the other in a trade. Again not gonna happen without retaining salary. You are getting nothing in return for either player and Flyers are retaining salary if either is moved. With those salaries these 2 have absolutely no value . Cap space is at a premium and those with it are going to dictate the trade markets. I think we have a 50/50 shot Seattle would take Ghost if not going to be a guy like Hagg or Aube-Kubel.

Too bad goalies all know high glove is his only move. It was good while it lasted.
- Tomahawk

That's some good hands up close though.

Watch the first 3 goals starting here:

https://youtu.be/l7B5dqGBo9E?t=174

The first 2 will not apparently impress you. How does the 3rd goal look? We did not see that this year.

Thats what i keep hearing, but i didnt see any flashes.
- bradster

You didnt miss the flashes there hasnt been any. Showed very little his first 2 yrs and even less last year. Right now he is a soft timid perimeter player and that wont fly in the NHL. Have little choice but to give it 1 more year but I hold little confidence. He just doesnt seem to have the drive or ethic to be an NHL player

He was much more assertive (watch the very first goal of that video I posted), though some big suit (Dreger? McKenzie?) made a comment about his 'frightening passivity' even then.

And no, you have not missed anything. Just a theory some of us here (me, Swami) have about what was really going on. Funny how the migraines went from ever present to complete vanishing (or at least, never rearing enough to miss even a game) during the course of a densely packed season. That kind of stuff is more amenable to a PCS explanation.
- PT21

I’m not a Dr. I just figured they finally got his med’s right. I haven’t seen what made him so highly touted more then a handful of times. It’s disappointing.

That's some good hands up close though.

Watch the first 3 goals starting here:

https://youtu.be/l7B5dqGBo9E?t=174

The first 2 will not apparently impress you. How does the 3rd goal look? We did not see that this year.
- PT21

He's always had wonderful hands in close.

His problem has always been 1) he doesn't get to the net enough, 2) he's not able to create his own shot.

The second is usually the thing that divides garden variety NHL forwards from good/great ones. It's the single hardest thing to do in the game.

This season, he went to the net even less frequently than before.

- PT21

Appreciate the video….let’s hope there’s more of that going forward. I hate being negative all the time on a young guy….but his lack of compete most night this year, really tried my patience.

He's always had wonderful hands in close.

His problem has always been 1) he doesn't get to the net enough, 2) he's not able to create his own shot.

The second is usually the thing that divides garden variety NHL forwards from good/great ones. It's the single hardest thing to do in the game.

This season, he went to the net even less frequently than before.
- Tomahawk

I accept this perceptive bit of analysis. I agree this fits Nopa's strengths and weaknesses.

Were the same weaknesses present in his game in the Jrs? If not, what changed?

Juneau had 102 points.
- MBFlyerfan

I was just surprised that rookie class had so many crazy good seasons

I accept this perceptive bit of analysis. I agree this fits Nopa's strengths and weaknesses.

Were the same weaknesses present in his game in the Jrs? If not, what changed?
- PT21

the competition

I accept this perceptive bit of analysis. I agree this fits Nopa's strengths and weaknesses.

Were the same weaknesses present in his game in the Jrs? If not, what changed?
- PT21

He had a lot more time and space in junior and he was physically mature, so he could go through a bunch of defenders and take the puck to the net when he really wanted. He was also advanced for his age in terms of awareness so he was ahead of the play then.

He lost all those advantages in the NHL tho, since most everybody is strong, fast, aware, gaps are tight, and you have to go through layers and layers of defenders.

He just doesn't have the legs, strength or skill to really break down defenses on his own, so he's gotta give the puck to somebody else, hope they can make a play, and pray the puck ends up back on his stick in shooting position.

Which is exactly what I said, by conditioning the grading of the picks on performance and draft position.


- PT21

Simply not needed.

The thing is, people need to re-calibrate their expectations, or at least, whether NoPa belongs on Flyers roster.

It seems to me that for short term non ELC contracts at least, a player's current AAV is the best benchmark for judging performance, not draft position. The issue is no longer whether NP can justify his selection position. That ship may have sailed. The issue is whether he justifies his pay in light of performance and potential, and I think he does.

Here compassion and good hockey management may coincide. It often does not.
- PT21

At best, Patrick played at a 4th line level last year. I would surmise that due to his lack of being proficient defensively, as well as not playing on the PK much, you could get more value from a veteran player on a one year minimum deal. His 3 PP points from averaging 1:45 per game on the PP didn't help much.

I feel like a lot of people on here think staying the course is the best way to go about this, I just can’t see it. Why wouldn’t you try to unload these vets this off-season and suffer for a few years? You trade couturier, he will get a haul, get rid of one of jvr/jake in the Seattle draft and then ask G about the NMC (if he waived he could get a nice return as well). Suffer for 2-3 years and with those draft picks, the return from Coots and maybe G, and the slew of young guys we have on the roster now, we would probably be in that spot where we can start seriously competing.
- ClaudeFather

Didn't we learn what happens when you elevate young players into roles and situations that they aren't ready for from last year.