I completely agree. Couturier+Giroux+whoever are not in that league. Further, we have no one in the system who is going to be that fast skating great playmaker the modern game favors. Frost apparently projected as a 2C according to his most ardent booster here, even before his injury, .

But, tell me this then. If you believe what you wrote above, and you get whoever as RHD, and by your admission, this does not raise the club to be at par with the clubs you have mentioned, how do you propose to bridge the gap to get to be at the level of those clubs? That RHD will likely drop your drafting position from 13ish to 18-20ish. Your salary cap will be maxed out.

Just keep drafting in that spot and hope someone pans out? How did that hope work out last 10 years?

Once you answer that question, the logic of trading Couturier (which will both get you high drafts directly, and indirectly by improving our own draft position) will not seem quite so "asinine."
- PT21

But one line of fowards is not all that is required to win. You need a full roster. Now let's say the Flyers get Jones and Hart returns to his normal form. Both things are realistic. That alone would put the Flyers ahead of the Oilers and Jets. Probably ahead of the Pens and Caps as well.

The AVS, Bruins, VGK and Tampa are the four best teams in the league. They have depth all over and excellent goaltending to go along with the top line players. The Flyers could trade all of there top talent and rebuild. Not saying it's completely wrong to do so. I do not think they will though. Also, for the record I would not if I was the GM.

But one line of fowards is not all that is required to win. You need a full roster. Now let's say the Flyers get Jones and Hart returns to his normal form. Both things are realistic. That alone would put the Flyers ahead of the Oilers and Jets. Probably ahead of the Pens and Caps as well.

The AVS, Bruins, VGK and Tampa are the four best teams in the league. They have depth all over and excellent goaltending to go along with the top line players. The Flyers could trade all of there top talent and rebuild. Not saying it's completely wrong to do so. I do not think they will though. Also, for the record I would not if I was the GM.
- mickel25

agree on the top 4 but I think Tampa and Vegas will change a decent bit due to cap.

its quite enjoyable
- MBFlyerfan

Whipped out some tweets from the last decade as his evidence lol

But one line of fowards is not all that is required to win. You need a full roster. Now let's say the Flyers get Jones and Hart returns to his normal form. Both things are realistic. That alone would put the Flyers ahead of the Oilers and Jets. Probably ahead of the Pens and Caps as well.

The AVS, Bruins, VGK and Tampa are the four best teams in the league. They have depth all over and excellent goaltending to go along with the top line players. The Flyers could trade all of there top talent and rebuild. Not saying it's completely wrong to do so. I do not think they will though. Also, for the record I would not if I was the GM.
- mickel25

Neither would Fletch, we all agree on that I think. We are just discussing why it makes sense or not (theoretically)...

(Btw, why are the Canes absent from this discussion? The top line of Aho+Svechnikov + anyone beats our top line any combo. If they can hang on to Dougie, they have an excellent defense. They have a solid group of prospects coming).

But even without that caveat, seems like you admit that even with all the development, and Seth Jones and so on, we will not be a top 4 team. Its not like we will be a solid 5th 6th. rather, we will be about equal with about 4-5 other teams, including Boston, Jets, possibly Toronto post adjustments, and so on. So, we will be distant outsiders for the cup.

Fast forward to 5 years later. In the interim, we have picked in the twenties. Avs are mid dynasty level. Some clubs like Ottawa, LA, Rangers, Devils are likely ascending. I don't see any reason why we would be contenders 5 more years out.

That's 10 years.

See, there in lies the rub. So many people make the mistake in thinking the Flyers' top players are also top players in the league. Well I don't believe they are. Just compare the Flyers' top paid forwards: Giroux, Hayes, Voracek and JVR to other contending team's top forward group. Right now, would you take these Flyers core players over any of these other groups?

Capitals: Ovechkin, Mantha, Backstrom
Penguins: Crosby, Guentzel, Malkin
Bruins: Marchand, Bergeron, Pastrnak
Lightning: Kucherov, Point, Stamkos
Knights: Stone, Pacioretty, Marchessault
Avalanche: Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen
Jets: Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor
Oilers: Draisaitl, McDavid , well does it really matter?

At one time, sure I would agree Giroux and Jake were top forwards, but they are not any more. JVR and Hayes were always considered next tier down from the top forwards in the league. To me this is as big of a problem for the Flyers as getting a top paring RHS defenseman.
- jd250

Wut?


1) You are cherry picking. Leaving off the other good teams.

2) Oilers, Avs, Pens and Caps landed Franchise players via draft. These types are rare. They had to suck for a long time to land them.

3) Mantha, Guentzal, Stone, Patches, Ehlers, Connor and Marchessault are not better than the Flyers top players.

The Flyers top players are better than people give them credit for. This team had some big holes and they were exposed. Offseason we have to try to fill those holes but the other thing is we cant put too much stock in a COVID season. It was too wacky and all over the place especially when you consider the talent in our division. Face it we had one of the toughest if not the toughest division.

We arent the only team that underachieved. Rangers, Canucks, Flames, Dallas, Columbus and St.Louis all underachieved. Hell throw the Leafs in too since they got eliminated by the Habs in a division they should have been guaranteed to get out of.

Neither would Fletch, we all agree on that I think. We are just discussing why it makes sense or not (theoretically)...

(Btw, why are the Canes absent from this discussion? The top line of Aho+Svechnikov + anyone beats our top line any combo. If they can hang on to Dougie, they have an excellent defense. They have a solid group of prospects coming).

But even without that caveat, seems like you admit that even with all the development, and Seth Jones and so on, we will not be a top 4 team. Its not like we will be a solid 5th 6th. rather, we will be about equal with about 4-5 other teams, including Boston, Jets, possibly Toronto post adjustments, and so on. So, we will be distant outsiders for the cup.

Fast forward to 5 years later. In the interim, we have picked in the twenties. Avs are mid dynasty level. Some clubs like Ottawa, LA, Rangers, Devils are likely ascending. I don't see any reason why we would be contenders 5 more years out.

That's 10 years.
- PT21

it is not possible to draft star players in the late first round and beyond. i forgot about this known fact.

it is not possible to draft star players in the late first round and beyond. i forgot about this known fact.
- Ftown19125

Oh, it is certainly very possible. There's so many star players drafted outside the top 10 of the first round: Kucherov, Aho, Point, the entire Boston top line, and before that, many key members of former cup winning squads too and so on.

Here is a simple question: consider the current players you would label as stars. Would you say an equal number of them were drafted in the top 10 and outside the top 10 (of the first round)?

Ballpark 'guessstimate'... Ofc I Don't mean for you to actually have to make an exhaustive list of all the star players and then look where they were drafted.

Bats eyes innocently, and waits. 😁

it is not possible to draft star players in the late first round and beyond. i forgot about this known fact.
- Ftown19125

it's possible just not for the flyers recently

As any one person say they need Phil Kessel? Just a simple yes or no answer will suffice.
- hello it's me 2050

Yes. You guys need Phil Kessel

3) Mantha, Guentzal, Stone, Patches, Ehlers, Connor and Marchessault are not better than the Flyers top players.


- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Did he not mean that as a group, the trio of forwards he listed from each team were better than any trio of our forwards? (Not that every member of every trio was better than every member of ours?)

Did he not mean that as a group, the trio of forwards he listed from each team were better than any trio of our forwards? (Not that every member of every trio was better than every member of ours?)
- PT21

also, while ill grant coots is better than those guys there, after that it gets pretty fuzzy doesnt it? and im not exactly thrilled with guentzel right now either but still

What happened to MJL?
- Gogol

Banned like that sms guy

I completely agree. Couturier+Giroux+whoever are not in that league. Further, we have no one in the system who is going to be that fast skating great playmaker the modern game favors. Frost apparently projected as a 2C according to his most ardent booster here, even before his injury, .

But, tell me this then. If you believe what you wrote above, and you get whoever as RHD, and by your admission, this does not raise the club to be at par with the clubs you have mentioned, how do you propose to bridge the gap to get to be at the level of those clubs? That RHD will likely drop your drafting position from 13ish to 18-20ish. Your salary cap will be maxed out.

Just keep drafting in that spot and hope someone pans out? How did that hope work out last 10 years?

Once you answer that question, the logic of trading Couturier (which will both get you high drafts directly, and indirectly by improving our own draft position) will not seem quite so "asinine."
- PT21

I find it much easier to think from the end backwards. Trading coots will come in every scenario unless you think from now to end. It allows for excuses and exaggerated beliefs. For example coots being a cup leading 1c

Lappy is the coach

Banned like that sms guy
- Im back

I predict he will rise again from the ashes of his former account.

Like Optimus Prime begat Rodimus Prime.

Whipped out some tweets from the last decade as his evidence lol
- arichardson22

Saw that...he really wants to run Patrick out of town.

Banned like that sms guy
- Im back

He will be back in a few weeks.

also, while ill grant coots is better than those guys there, after that it gets pretty fuzzy doesnt it? and im not exactly thrilled with guentzel right now either but still
- stayinthefnnet

Yes.

See, there in lies the rub. So many people make the mistake in thinking the Flyers' top players are also top players in the league. Well I don't believe they are. Just compare the Flyers' top paid forwards: Giroux, Hayes, Voracek and JVR to other contending team's top forward group. Right now, would you take these Flyers core players over any of these other groups?

Capitals: Ovechkin, Mantha, Backstrom
Penguins: Crosby, Guentzel, Malkin
Bruins: Marchand, Bergeron, Pastrnak
Lightning: Kucherov, Point, Stamkos
Knights: Stone, Pacioretty, Marchessault
Avalanche: Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen
Jets: Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor
Oilers: Draisaitl, McDavid , well does it really matter?

At one time, sure I would agree Giroux and Jake were top forwards, but they are not any more. JVR and Hayes were always considered next tier down from the top forwards in the league. To me this is as big of a problem for the Flyers as getting a top paring RHS defenseman.
- jd250

Yeah, I’m saying top six on most teams. Not because he plays in the top six. On a few teams he could be argued down to a third line player but those teams are elite. He has top line abilities. What I mean by that is he would not look out of place on top lines. Now is he a top forward in the league goes to what that definition is.

Bottom line is he is a solid NHL player. Just has a poor contract right now. Not terrible in my opinion but he is getting over paid. I think his contract is what annoys Flyer fans. But there isn’t a team in the league that wouldn’t want him in their line up. Just the contract is not the best.

Gustafsson scoring playoff goals.
Pantload could (frank) up a one car funeral.

so, this Caulfield kid can play.

so, this Caulfield kid can play.
- Briere

Yes, but that was a brutal breakdown on d by Jets there. Looked like our defense on that play.

16 shots in an elimination game? Sheesh.

Yes, but that was a brutal breakdown on d by Jets there. Looked like our defense on that play.
- arichardson22

true. but i meant the whole series. and the one before.

so, this Caulfield kid can play.
- Briere

We definitely missed