add him to the list of players who are testing free agency.
- Ftown19125

slurp

add him to the list of players who are testing free agency.
- Ftown19125

what list is that by the way

As I mentioned before I’ll be back once there is a different version of this team iced. I’ve just had more than enough of the thinking that a core of G, Jake, Coots and JVR is good enough. In the meantime I’m going to watch fun teams. I just can’t with the way this roster is constructed anymore.
- hereticpride

this is the most drawn out goodbye ever.

this is the most drawn out goodbye ever.
- Ftown19125

It's not a goodbye. It's a I'll see you later. He'll be a bandwagon jumper when the Flyers get good again.

So what should follow tomorrow after potential loss tonight?
Options:

1. Firing of AV, if for nothing else then for still keeping Therien behind the bench
2. Trading of Voracek for anything, even for bags of pucks. I agree with Bill that he shows up from time to time, yet for over $8m a year I expect consistency. He is barely justifying $4m. Meaning his contribution can be replaced with $4-5 , spent better elsewhere.
3. Trading Raffl, Ghost and Elliot for draft picks or any package.

These 3 grouped steps could turn things around for the next season. That is what is called quick fix. So let's not pretend that we cannot do anything here.
Any competent GM could change things around as you have assets to do so.

this is the most drawn out goodbye ever.
- Ftown19125

Cool. Peace out dudes.

OK, so what is your replacement plan? A tear-down and total rebuild is not going to happen. We all agree that changes are needed, and the teams the Flyers need to compete with next season when the NHL, hopefully, goes back to a normal schedule and games outside the division.

By "more physical", what specifically do you mean? More hits? More fights? Heavier on pucks?

By "faster" what do you mean: Adding more individual speedsters? Or do you mean being less stationary as a team, with better gaps, puck support and feet moving?

BTW, Giroux does more than "put up pretty numbers". You also would have replace the club's top playmaker, one of the most dominant faceoff men in the NHL, someone who can switch back and forth between LW and C without skipping a beat, and someone who, in fact, has been THE catalyst in leading the charge in multiple games the Flyers have managed to win this season.

Want to get rid of Voracek, assuming an actual hockey trade were possible and not just a swapping around of money-for-money? Fine. Suggest a workable deal.

Want a more consistent two-way player? A comparably skilled offensive player who perhaps is a little less playmaker and more of a finisher? Again, suggest something.

I have no problem with the Flyers making a bold move or two by next season. It's needed, agreed. But merely trading just for a trade's sake is counterproductive. Even if it's a temporary step backward in on-paper talent, there has to be corresponding step forward in being consistently tough to play against. It also has to work out cap-wise.

Lastly, it can't bee a total knee-jerk reaction to what has been a very strange and rather precarious and fragile season for every team across the league. I don't think it's wise to simply write everything off and hope the team comes back as a better version of the 2019-20 squad. But it's also not wise to go completely overboard, assume no one bounces back and burn it all to the ground.
- bmeltzer

Bill, much respect for all you do here and the high standards you set but a few points I want to contradict:

1. This is largely akin to the doctor saying there is a treatment available more likely to provide results but I am not going to offer it. The doctor should have his license revoked. Else, the patient should go elsewhere

2. I don't believe you have to replace anything. This 'replacement' motto is code for regular season stagnation. Giroux's time has come and gone. He is not part of a cup winning team in the near future, so the rational thing is to sell and recoup young assets.

3. Bill, this is not a knee-jerk reaction. It stems from several decades of this franchise refusing to do the rational thing and either taking advantage of fan loyalties or being too obdurate to change course (I do not know which is closer to the truth). Finally, it has not been a strange season for all other teams. The teams that were supposed to be contenders: TB, Vegas, Avs, Boston, Wash, are pretty much still so.

It's not a goodbye. It's a I'll see you later. He'll be a bandwagon jumper when the Flyers get good again.
- MJL

Missing the point as always. How many times have I said I’d gladly root for a rebuilt team that struggles over endless mediocrity.

See ya.

I would offer Morin the league minimum or a million. Even if he came back next season and sucked, it wouldn’t hurt to have him as a 6th/7th defender. Right now I really like what I see.
- SuperSchennBros

agree, least of our worries, easy contract with little to no risk and actually some upside now. Morin has shown so far that toughness was needed.

So trade Laughton for a 7th round pick? That simple?
- MBFlyerfan

MB, the odd thing about this year's draft is that without much body of work from which scouts can create informed opinions due to COVID, this year's draft may be more akin to the investing strategy of throwing darts at the WSJ stock pages.

It’s 3 and a half months until the draft. If I’m brooding now, what is that timeframe going to be like.

Any lineup changes tonight?

MB, the odd thing about this year's draft is that without much body of work from which scouts can create informed opinions due to COVID, this year's draft may be more akin to the investing strategy of throwing darts at the WSJ stock pages.


- Letterkenney

These scouts been watching these players for years; they have a solid base to build from not going in dark. They are not going in totally dark.

It took Chicago a long time, a lot of patience (for example. Patrick Sharp didn't instantly blossom after the trade from the Flyers) and some sheer good fortune in hitting home runs on a few non-first round picks (Duncan Keith was a 2nd rounder, Sharp was a 3rd rounder for the Flyers, Byfuglien was an 8th rounder) to build the first of their Cup teams. After they tore down their previous contending nucleus as it aged -- Roenick, Amonte, Belfour, Chelios, etc. -- it took missing the playoffs in nine out of 10 seasons including several with Kane and Toews aboard to finally become a contender.

Pittsburgh gets an asterisk because their franchise, in its second bankruptcy, survived solely off a lockout, the salary cap implementation, a new arena that the taxpayers of Pennsylvania funded and the heavily weighted 2005 lottery (Crosby) as the capstone of several seasons of abject tanking plus very deep top ends of other drafts where they could hardly go wrong with their pick. I credit Ray Shero and Rutherford for adding the right pieces, and the org also hit on some non-first round picks (Letang most notably). But the Penguins model isn't exactly a replicable blueprint.

LA was another long process and one, actually, that Lombardi and Hextall modeled consciously on trying to create a Flyers-like culture because the Kings didn't have one at the point that Dean and Ron left the Flyers to go to LA. Since their two Stanley Cups, the Kings have returned from whence they came: haven't won a playoff series since their 2014 Cup and are heading for missing the playoffs this season for the fifth time in seven years.
- bmeltzer

Bill,

No offense, but can we please retire this narrative of luck etc. when the statistical facts are overwhelmingly against it?

If you roll a fair die, and bet on the first 4 numbers, there are times you will win, and times you will lose. The losses (when die returns 5 or 6) should not counter the fact that betting on 1-4 is twice as good as betting 5-6.

The data strongly support the following narrative:

To win, you need superstars.
Superstars are far more likely to come from the top 5 of the draft than any other equivalent position of the draft.

Some teams need patience, some strike gold quickly, some get there by tanking, some are victims of financial good fortune, some manage to supplement superstars by further luck in later rounds etc etc.

These are details about how the correct strategy got implemented, not whether it is correct.

Finally, we have discussed this before, but even the weighted odds for Pens to win Crosby in 2005 were far lower than what a current last place team has for winning #1. They were not the beneficiary of some statistical rigging, as is often insinuated.

It’s 3 and a half months until the draft. If I’m brooding now, what is that timeframe going to be like.

Any lineup changes tonight?
- NC Flyers Fan

I would like to see Oskar - Tanner L. - Raffl as a 4th line

Missing the point as always. How many times have I said I’d gladly root for a rebuilt team that struggles over endless mediocrity.

See ya.
- hereticpride

Sooo atleast you admit you are a fake fan.

I grew up outside of Philly in the suburbs. As a young teenager back in the cup years, I sent Clarke a letter. A week or two later I rcvd an autographed photo in the mail. I still have it hanging on my workshop wall.

- Robert's Plant

OOOH!!

It took Chicago a long time, a lot of patience (for example. Patrick Sharp didn't instantly blossom after the trade from the Flyers) and some sheer good fortune in hitting home runs on a few non-first round picks (Duncan Keith was a 2nd rounder, Sharp was a 3rd rounder for the Flyers, Byfuglien was an 8th rounder) to build the first of their Cup teams. After they tore down their previous contending nucleus as it aged -- Roenick, Amonte, Belfour, Chelios, etc. -- it took missing the playoffs in nine out of 10 seasons including several with Kane and Toews aboard to finally become a contender.

Pittsburgh gets an asterisk because their franchise, in its second bankruptcy, survived solely off a lockout, the salary cap implementation, a new arena that the taxpayers of Pennsylvania funded and the heavily weighted 2005 lottery (Crosby) as the capstone of several seasons of abject tanking plus very deep top ends of other drafts where they could hardly go wrong with their pick. I credit Ray Shero and Rutherford for adding the right pieces, and the org also hit on some non-first round picks (Letang most notably). But the Penguins model isn't exactly a replicable blueprint.

LA was another long process and one, actually, that Lombardi and Hextall modeled consciously on trying to create a Flyers-like culture because the Kings didn't have one at the point that Dean and Ron left the Flyers to go to LA. Since their two Stanley Cups, the Kings have returned from whence they came: haven't won a playoff series since their 2014 Cup and are heading for missing the playoffs this season for the fifth time in seven years.
- bmeltzer

There you go again, Bill! Letting facts and sound historical analysis get in the way of a good narrative.

I like a good number of your posts, and absolutely love your avatar, but we certainly disagree on the definition of being a fan.
I look at it as like a marriage. I'm mid-50's and been with the Flyers for 48 years and with my wife for 32. I can say bad things about them, but you had better not. I am loyal and faithful, but I can still be critical of the things done that I do not like. I will not leave, but I might not give full attention for a short period. Even during bad times, I will stand alongside, and when things are great, there is no better feeling.
I understand the frustration with the last decade (46 years), but I believe there will be a payoff, and this frustration is an investment in the pure bliss when the Flyers win Me again. I know you don't want to miss that...
Some might call me a Kool Aid (Orange) drinker for that, but there are also Black Kool Aid drinkers out there that go so much further to the other extreme, that I believe they are either sadists or Rangers/Penguins/Devils fans who hate the Flyers as much as I love them.
- Stanley Cup

I too will tune out. I have largely started the process. I will not support another team, but take a far more detached interest in the Flyers like after 2014 (when seeing the Rangers playoffs convinced me that the Giroux-Voracek + the rotating cast of supporting forwards were not going to be cup winners). I got hooked by the way they were playing Jan-early March last year.

More interestingly though, I do not believe your marriage metaphor is an apt one. Let us say that your wife has one trait you dislike, for example, she tends to over-sweeten her beverages.

Now, suppose you discover that this over-sweetening is not a personality trait, but that she gets a personal financial benefit every time she buys sugar. Maybe she owns stock, or maybe she is part of a subscription plan for sugar supply that delivers too frequently.

That would be a little betrayal of the non-monetary loyalty you have towards her, right?

Well, I think that is the correct analogy.

take a few other posters with you please. thanks.
- Ftown19125

I nominate PT21. Anyone second the nomination?

I too will tune out. I have largely started the process. I will not support another team, but take a far more detached interest in the Flyers like after 2014 (when seeing the Rangers playoffs convinced me that the Giroux-Voracek + the rotating cast of supporting forwards were not going to be cup winners). I got hooked by the way they were playing Jan-early March last year.

More interestingly though, I do not believe your marriage metaphor is an apt one. Let us say that your wife has one trait you dislike, for example, she tends to over-sweeten her beverages.

Now, suppose you discover that this over-sweetening is not a personality trait, but that she gets a personal financial benefit every time she buys sugar. Maybe she owns stock, or maybe she is part of a subscription plan for sugar supply that delivers too frequently.

That would be a little betrayal of the non-monetary loyalty you have towards her, right?

Well, I think that is the correct analogy.
- PT21

Does the analogy still work if the wife leaves the lights on instead of the over sweetening thing?

So what should follow tomorrow after potential loss tonight?
Options:

1. Firing of AV, if for nothing else then for still keeping Therien behind the bench
2. Trading of Voracek for anything, even for bags of pucks. I agree with Bill that he shows up from time to time, yet for over $8m a year I expect consistency. He is barely justifying $4m. Meaning his contribution can be replaced with $4-5 , spent better elsewhere.
3. Trading Raffl, Ghost and Elliot for draft picks or any package.

These 3 grouped steps could turn things around for the next season. That is what is called quick fix. So let's not pretend that we cannot do anything here.
Any competent GM could change things around as you have assets to do so.
- Keith25

stop with the firing of AV thing it makes no sense

Sooo atleast you admit you are a fake fan.
- Richieattack18

fake fans always want this team to just not be good enough for the playoffs

I would like to see Oskar - Tanner L. - Raffl as a 4th line
- juiced

I would certainly like to see different looks and different prospects. Anything that at least makes me think we are evaluating for a new look Flyers next season.

I too will tune out. I have largely started the process. I will not support another team, but take a far more detached interest in the Flyers like after 2014 (when seeing the Rangers playoffs convinced me that the Giroux-Voracek + the rotating cast of supporting forwards were not going to be cup winners). I got hooked by the way they were playing Jan-early March last year.

More interestingly though, I do not believe your marriage metaphor is an apt one. Let us say that your wife has one trait you dislike, for example, she tends to over-sweeten her beverages.

Now, suppose you discover that this over-sweetening is not a personality trait, but that she gets a personal financial benefit every time she buys sugar. Maybe she owns stock, or maybe she is part of a subscription plan for sugar supply that delivers too frequently.

That would be a little betrayal of the non-monetary loyalty you have towards her, right?

Well, I think that is the correct analogy.
- PT21

I may not have said that part clearly. I am not tuning out. I will have the game on tonight, until the end, no matter what. I am old enough that the losses don't hurt like they used to, but the thrilling wins, especially playoffs, especially live (I have been to hundreds of games) still get me high. I may not pay attention to every play, but the tv and volume will be on.
As for your analogies, I must not be smart enough, because few, if any, have hit the mark for me. This one is really weird, though. To me at least.

Need the W tonight and hopefully WSH beats Boston
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I peeked at the standings. Boston is 5 points ahead, with 2 games in hand. Lets give hem 2 points out of 4 to make up the slack (they are about 0.64 win %). That means they would be 7 points ahead with 18 to go. They will likely own the tie-breaker, so that's 1 more point.

That means Flyers will have to win 4 more games than Boston to get in over 18 games. If Boston carries current trajectory, they would win about 12 out of 18.

So, to get in, Flyers would need to win 16 of the next 18.