Bill, much respect for all you do here and the high standards you set but a few points I want to contradict:

1. This is largely akin to the doctor saying there is a treatment available more likely to provide results but I am not going to offer it. The doctor should have his license revoked. Else, the patient should go elsewhere


- PT21

When will you stop with the ridiculous and irrelevant analogies that don't even come close to applying?

2. I don't believe you have to replace anything. This 'replacement' motto is code for regular season stagnation. Giroux's time has come and gone. He is not part of a cup winning team in the near future, so the rational thing is to sell and recoup young assets.


- PT21

You are 100% wrong that Giroux's time has come and gone. You state that he is not a part of a cup winning team in the near future as if that is a fact, rather than an opinion. Giroux can remain a strong player for another 5 years, if not longer. What will determine if he is re-signed, is what he is willing to play for and if the Flyers can fit him into their cap structure. If you'd made the cap argument, at least you'd be somewhat rational.

3. Bill, this is not a knee-jerk reaction. It stems from several decades of this franchise refusing to do the rational thing and either taking advantage of fan loyalties or being too obdurate to change course (I do not know which is closer to the truth). Finally, it has not been a strange season for all other teams. The teams that were supposed to be contenders: TB, Vegas, Avs, Boston, Wash, are pretty much still so.
- PT21

Yes it is a knee jerk reaction. A GM doesn't base the moves he makes and how he decides to build the team on what has happened in the last several decades. Again, that this franchise has refused to do the rational thing is an opinion, not a fact. You think your plan is rational. I think your plan is irrational.

The Flyers were not legitimately supposed to be a contender this season. The teams you mentioned are more advanced and have more experience across the board on their roster.

Missing the point as always. How many times have I said I’d gladly root for a rebuilt team that struggles over endless mediocrity.

See ya.
- hereticpride

This is a rebuilt team that is struggling? Perhaps you don't know what a rebuilt team is. A rebuilt team is not a team that completely dumps all it's veteran players. So I guess when Fletcher took over and made the moves he did last year and the Flyers were playing well, you weren't on board? Of course you were. That's what frontrunners and bandwagon jumpers do.

Hmm, honestly I don't think there is much that can be done. Its the nature of the current market. You can't buy something at a price other than what the seller is willing to sell.

Will the club be more competitive/entertaining next season? For sure. Don't worry about that.

But once the excitement is over, it will be picking in the 14-24 range.
- PT21

I really am hoping your correct about next season....but we’ve heard that from this team for a few years. All I can do is use my judgement on what I see and what actions the Flyers will do between now and the start of next season.

It was certainly labored, because I struggled to find an analogy of a financial interest in a marriage which is connected to a personality trait without resoritng to crudeness.

Let me be more blunt:

Sports as a business model (and please remember, sports franchises are not non-profit entities) is quite exploitative. At its core, it relies financially on the unquestioning loyalty of fans. But it is able to ride this unquestioning loyalty to $ without making changes to strategy that a normal business would have to. In other words, the unquestioning loyalty is not two-sided.

Lets say a business sold a product. There was a flaw in the product. What would be the biggest incentive for the business to change/improve its product? Fleeing customers. But now, suppose enough did not flee: what would be the incentive for the firm to change? Nothing, except to pretend that it is doing its best and so on.

Good for you to stay tuned. I am not speaking for anybody else but myself. I will sort of take a bird's eye view, and check my emotions at the door.

Is that clearer?
- PT21

This is the same as when you said you were leaving HB. The Flyers did make a huge change to their product to try and improve. Not that long ago.

So you are saying Hextall's ability to draft and build an organization are completely overrated?
- jd250

Not really just saying that we are just human beings
Both Hextall and Patrick are from Manitoba.

If Patrick would have the same junior ranking and health history but called
Nokita Putinrick from Karelia Russia there was zero chance that Flyers would have drafted him

The Wonderful Wheel of AV spins again.
- Tomahawk

This is one way that AV has done a very poor job of coaching. He has moved players in and out and changed line combos way too much. I've normally been a Haag supporter. I thought in the past, he has received more criticism then deserved. However this year, when he has played, he has been worse. His play with the puck degraded from barely acceptable, to pretty bad. He hasn't played in how long? True Myers has had his struggles but at this point, the time should be to focus on improving the young players for the future. I don't agree with that change.

I really am hoping your correct about next season....but we’ve heard that from this team for a few years. All I can do is use my judgement on what I see and what actions the Flyers will do between now and the start of next season.
- landros 2

Trust me on that one. Stone cold lock they are better. Its their business model. If the Flyers had the fortitude to deliberately sustain seasons like this one for a few years, they would not be the poster child for sustained mediocrity they are now.


Will the changes even be wise and not an over-payment? I cannot guarantee that. If I had to guess, I would say they will be unwise. Better enough to be a contender in the near future? Very unlikely. But better enough to keep the fan interest churning? For sure.

A large # of sports fans are either unwavering in their emotional loyalty, or just want to be entertained for the evening, and so on. Either way, as long as the franchise doesn't do anything dramatic that rattles the fanbase, there is very little incentive to do the sort of hard organizational shakeup that would lead to say, winning the cup. The ownership can always point to stories of luck, and randomness, and effort and so on.


- PT21

This Organization has done exactly that. Made hard organizational shakeups to try and change the course of the team. In fact one of the reasons why the team is where it is at is because they made a hard organizational change. It was the wrong decision.

The Wonderful Wheel of AV spins again.
- Tomahawk

That move shocks you ? Myers has struggled for quite a while. It doesn’t help young guys that are not playing well to continually have to go out and try to improve with no break or no time to reset. Hopefully Myers gets back to playing the way he did last year.

That is truly wonderful. No should tell you your attitude is wrong. But it goes to support my point.

A large # of sports fans are either unwavering in their emotional loyalty, or just want to be entertained for the evening, and so on. Either way, as long as the franchise doesn't do anything dramatic that rattles the fanbase, there is very little incentive to do the sort of hard organizational shakeup that would lead to say, winning the cup. The ownership can always point to stories of luck, and randomness, and effort and so on.

Sports franchises just rise and rise in value. I believe an average NHL club is worth well over 3 times what it was 15 years ago. It is completely uncorrelated with playoff success. Revenue sharing, lack of anti-trust legislation, and the CBA has created this peculiar beast.
- PT21

Your second sentence is spot on. No one on an opinion board should be able to say another opinion is wrong.
You are also proving my point. Fan is short for fanatic, and I am a Flyers fanatic. They have done horrible things, like signing Billy Tibbetts, but I'm still with them. You are seeming to indicate that that makes me a sucker, but these are the things that make me me happy, and I willingly spend my time with the things that I enjoy. Maybe some of your hobbies are foolish to others.
In my view, your attempt to "prove" there is a formula to win Me, is flawed in that you completely discount luck. It takes a great deal of luck to win it all, no matter the talent, where they were somewhat randomly ranked at a somewhat random time, or when they were drafted. The Isles were certainly a little lucky in 1980 with two arguably gifted goals in a deciding game. Maybe they win anyway, or win Game 7, but due to some luck, we will never know.
I hope you'll take this the right way, but your attempts remind me of the scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams' character has the students tear a page out of a textbook. He did so because the author was trying to graph poetry. Sports, poetry and all forms of art can not be quantified. A great deal of why it is appreciated is because of its subjective beauty and elegance.

Trust me on that one. Stone cold lock they are better. Its their business model. If the Flyers had the fortitude to deliberately sustain seasons like this one for a few years, they would not be the poster child for sustained mediocrity they are now.


Will the changes even be wise and not an over-payment? I cannot guarantee that. If I had to guess, I would say they will be unwise. Better enough to be a contender in the near future? Very unlikely. But better enough to keep the fan interest churning? For sure.
- PT21

We’ll see. I’m not quite as pessimistic as some others around here about Fletchers ability to make a move that’s beneficial to both teams... the bottom line is the status quo has not and will not work going forward. Fletcher and anyone with half a brain, knows changes are needed.

Not really just saying that we are just human beings
Both Hextall and Patrick are from Manitoba.

If Patrick would have the same junior ranking and health history but called
Nokita Putinrick from Karelia Russia there was zero chance that Flyers would have drafted him
- goenzoy

Probably a bit of truth to this.

To win, you need superstars.
Superstars are far more likely to come from the top 5 of the draft than any other equivalent position of the draft.

.
- PT21

Superstars are not enough to win. To win you need a very good team. If having superstars were the key, then there wouldn't be far more teams with superstars that don't win, then do. It's not even close. You can't grasp that having superstars is not the key.

AV just does not have a good pulse on the team this year. Seems like he is just throwing a dart against a wall.

Gagg in to show he Is healthy; hopefully then traded.

I peeked at the standings. Boston is 5 points ahead, with 2 games in hand. Lets give hem 2 points out of 4 to make up the slack (they are about 0.64 win %). That means they would be 7 points ahead with 18 to go. They will likely own the tie-breaker, so that's 1 more point.

That means Flyers will have to win 4 more games than Boston to get in over 18 games. If Boston carries current trajectory, they would win about 12 out of 18.

So, to get in, Flyers would need to win 16 of the next 18.
- PT21

Except trajectories mean nothing. Parity happens. Detroit beat Tampa the other day, any team has the chance to beat another. Streaks also happen. Boston could get hot and win most their games, they can also get cold and lose most their games.

All the Flyers can do is control how they play. They are a team thats notorious from going from cold to hot especially late in seasons. They had a 10 game losing streak and a 10 game winning streak in the same season.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter what the chances are. You play your game and put your best effort in and go from there. Giving up is not how you win championships. Quitters never win.

No one on an opinion board should be able to say another opinion is wrong.
Fan is short for fanatic, and I am a Flyers fanatic.
They have done horrible things, like signing Billy Tibbetts, but I'm still with them.
You are seeming to indicate that that makes me a sucker,
In my view, your attempt to "prove" there is a formula to win Me, is flawed in that you completely discount luck. It takes a great deal of luck to win it all
I hope you'll take this the right way, but your attempts remind me of the scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams' character
Sports, poetry and all forms of art can not be quantified.
- Stanley Cup[
A great deal of why it is appreciated is because of its subjective beauty and elegance.

Forgive me for editing out all except the points I am responding to. They are in your original post after all.

1. Opinions can certainly be called out, in a sports board or anywhere else. That happens when falsifiable claims start to masquerade as opinion. One such instance is say: referees are biased against Flyers. That is a claim that can be falsified by looking at data.

2. You raise an interesting point. The origin of fan is controversial, but many believe it derives from fanatic. It should be pointed out though, that the meaning of the two terms have diverged since then.

3. Good for you.

4. Not at all. I never said they make you a sucker. You should do things that make you happy. I am merely taking a global view (nothing to do with you), and pointing out the business model of sports is precisely based upon the attitude you display here.

5. No, I do not discount the element of luck. My 'formula' for winning is simply playing the numbers. Formula is not the same as guarantee. You can have the best insurance in the world and still be hit by a freak event (bad luck). But, that does not mean that buying insurance was the wrong thing to do.

6. I never get personally offended by statements on boards, so no caveat necessary, but: Terrible movie. Mawkish, cliched, and inaccurate. I don't remember the scene and I am grateful for that lapse of memory. Don't take that the wrong way. *smile*

7. Everything can be quantified. Everything. Mathematics is the language of the universe and everything within it (I say this as a person who knows many pages of Shakespeare by heart and ends up spending entire days in museums around the world. I care far, far more about art than sports).

But more to the point, the consumption of sports may indeed be comparable to the consumption of poetry or art. But here is the critical difference: the production of it is not similar at all to the production of poetry and art. Poets and artists are not profit maximizers. Sports franchises are.

I enjoyed responding to your post. Thanks.

Except trajectories mean nothing. Parity happens. Detroit beat Tampa the other day, any team has the chance to beat another. Streaks also happen. Boston could get hot and win most their games, they can also get cold and lose most their games.

All the Flyers can do is control how they play. They are a team thats notorious from going from cold to hot especially late in seasons. They had a 10 game losing streak and a 10 game winning streak in the same season.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the chances are. You play your game and put your best effort in and go from there. Giving up is not how you win championships. Quitters never win.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I never said they should not play their best. (Actually, I hope they don't and lose out, but that is besides the point).

But we were talking as fans, not players. And about likelihood, not things that have happened here and there.

Hhh

AV just does not have a good pulse on the team this year. Seems like he is just throwing a dart against a wall.
- StepfordSam

I dont really have a problem with Myers sitting. He has not been very good lately.

The real rub on this dramatic and unacceptable breakdown of the Flyers season is the fact that they're really up against the cap and their veteran 'stars' contracts are absolutely unmovable unless the Flyers basically take on huge chunks of the salary.

Voracek contract - lol no way that's getting moved ever unless you throw a 1st round pick and possibly more on top of retaining salary. Giroux - same boat really. Even with JvR's good start to the year he's too pricey as well.

OK, so what is your replacement plan? A tear-down and total rebuild is not going to happen. We all agree that changes are needed, and the teams the Flyers need to compete with next season when the NHL, hopefully, goes back to a normal schedule and games outside the division.

By "more physical", what specifically do you mean? More hits? More fights? Heavier on pucks?

By "faster" what do you mean: Adding more individual speedsters? Or do you mean being less stationary as a team, with better gaps, puck support and feet moving?

BTW, Giroux does more than "put up pretty numbers". You also would have replace the club's top playmaker, one of the most dominant faceoff men in the NHL, someone who can switch back and forth between LW and C without skipping a beat, and someone who, in fact, has been THE catalyst in leading the charge in multiple games the Flyers have managed to win this season.


Want to get rid of Voracek, assuming an actual hockey trade were possible and not just a swapping around of money-for-money? Fine. Suggest a workable deal.

Want a more consistent two-way player? A comparably skilled offensive player who perhaps is a little less playmaker and more of a finisher? Again, suggest something.

I have no problem with the Flyers making a bold move or two by next season. It's needed, agreed. But merely trading just for a trade's sake is counterproductive. Even if it's a temporary step backward in on-paper talent, there has to be corresponding step forward in being consistently tough to play against. It also has to work out cap-wise.

Lastly, it can't bee a total knee-jerk reaction to what has been a very strange and rather precarious and fragile season for every team across the league. I don't think it's wise to simply write everything off and hope the team comes back as a better version of the 2019-20 squad. But it's also not wise to go completely overboard, assume no one bounces back and burn it all to the ground.
- bmeltzer

Christ Meltzer you know exactly what this guy means. This team for the last 10 years is treading water. Everything you just stated player wise doesn’t work. NO RESULTS. I’d rather have 20 Scott Laughtins or Morins than this sad predictable bunch.

When I looked this morning, it appears we are 2.5 losses from realistic mathematical defeat. Without a winning streak in the last 3 weeks, it’s not been looking good.
- NC Flyers Fan

No doubt. They have to go on a streak. And regulation wins. This is not what I expected this season.

Alert to y'all:

There is a very interesting article about Carter Hart in the Athletic by Pronman.

I would post it here, but the article has a large # of embedded videos to emphasize different points.

Here is the summary though:

Considering all the evidence, including evaluating his toolkit for many years, and his performance this season and in prior seasons, I think a realistic long-term projection for the 22-year-old is a true NHL starting goaltender, a top-30 goalie in the league (if not better), but likely not a true star/upper echelon NHL goalie.

Except trajectories mean nothing. Parity happens. Detroit beat Tampa the other day, any team has the chance to beat another. Streaks also happen. Boston could get hot and win most their games, they can also get cold and lose most their games.

All the Flyers can do is control how they play. They are a team thats notorious from going from cold to hot especially late in seasons. They had a 10 game losing streak and a 10 game winning streak in the same season.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter what the chances are. You play your game and put your best effort in and go from there. Giving up is not how you win championships. Quitters never win.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

To your final point, absolutely true. A lot of folks will get upset if the Flyers win some of these last games, then fail to make the playoffs or lose in the first round after a miraculous run to get in. Not me.

Folks will pout about the lower draft pick or excuses for not making roster changes. However, I truly think winning is not ever bad for development, confidence and building for future success.

Winners never quit, sometimes they lack skill, experience or confidence and are defeated. And as you point out someone who gives up, never wins.