I love how people blame the coach for this. If the players underfperfom. Nisk loss hit this team hard. They had trouble exiting their own zone before, now with nisk gone it’s worse. Clean zone exits are this teams biggest problems.

AV and Bowman in the same sentence as a coach. Sure why not. Being a good coach doesn't mean your a good GM.

AV isnt and won't be considered in the upper tier of great/very good coaches. Part of the ole boys club.
- login

Says who? Have you ever attended a Vigneault practice vs. other NHL coaches? Ever talked to his current or former players about how he preps a team? Ever talked to one of his assistants about the staff's communication versus other staffs they've been part of?

Not everyone who played for AV was personally fond of his style. Have yet to speak to anyone who said, in hindsight, he was anything less than one of the better coaches for whom they've played.

AV was an assistant coach for Ottawa when Brad Marsh was finishing up his career. Brad, who has become a good friend of mine as well as my boss with the Flyers Alumni, has told me that there are some guys you just KNOW will future NHL head coaches and good ones. AV was one.

Simon Gagne played junior hockey for AV. Said he was tough on the players but an excellent coach who taught him about what the expectations would be to become a pro eventually. In hindsight, it was his first NHL-caliber coaching, and he's grateful for it.

Kevin Hayes played for AV in New York -- where fans were sure AV "had it in" for Hayes, because he was tough on him -- before Philly and now says playing for Vigneault back then was the best thing that ever happened to his career even if he wasn't wild about the "tough love" he got back then.

The Sedin twins did a pretty lengthy interview in the Swedish press after their retirement. They were highly complimentary toward AV, his impact on the Canucks during their time together and in their own careers.

Last season here, Vigneault got a lot of buy-in for shorter shifts, and 200-foot play. Not sure where that's gone this season. But it was a big part of why the Flyers shaved their GAA so dramatically a year ago and the backslide into 2018-19 like play is why the team is where it is now. If you are going to extensively blame AV for what's gone on this season, you have to give him proportionate credit for last year's improvement.

As for Bowman, you are missing the point. When he coached the Habs, Penguins and Red Wings, he had rosters loaded to the brim with Hall of Fame and all-star talent. He got them to play to their potential. When he coached the Sabres with just-OK talent (with rosters of his own creation; handpicking whom he'd coach), they spun their wheels.

The point is that the players will ultimately be the ones to make a coach look brilliant or ordinary.

coots isn't a number 1 center on a championship team
- 2Real

Selke Trophy winners that score over 30 in a season are 100% number 1 centers on championship teams. It isn't coots fault that the Flyers are not a championship caliber team.

I think because Couts is such a strong 2way center, some of these extraneous defensive qualities show up in fan base rankings of Couts as a 1c. The criterion for top 1C does not mandate defensive studness. It requires an absence of a liability, and the rest is a perk.
- PT21

It seems as though this is your criterion and not the actual criterion. Or maybe the percved criterion of the nhl.com lists that you bow to in worship.

I love how people blame the coach for this. If the players underfperfom. Nisk loss hit this team hard. They had trouble exiting their own zone before, now with nisk gone it’s worse. Clean zone exits are this teams biggest problems.
- PhillaBully

What if I told you our controlled exits are identical to last year and controlled entry into the other team zone, ditto. Our issue is the other team is exiting their zone and entering ours easier than last year. Which I would agree has something to do with niskanen but also to do with neutral zone play of all 5 players on the ice.

Says who? Have you ever attended a Vigneault practice vs. other NHL coaches? Ever talked to his current or former players about how he preps a team? Ever talked to one of his assistants about the staff's communication versus other staffs they've been part of?

Not everyone who played for AV was personally fond of his style. Have yet to speak to anyone who said, in hindsight, he was anything less than one of the better coaches for whom they've played.

AV was an assistant coach for Ottawa when Brad Marsh was finishing up his career. Brad, who has become a good friend of mine as well as my boss with the Flyers Alumni, has told me that there are some guys you just KNOW will future NHL head coaches and good ones. AV was one.

Simon Gagne played junior hockey for AV. Said he was tough on the players but an excellent coach who taught him about what the expectations would be to become a pro eventually. In hindsight, it was his first NHL-caliber coaching, and he's grateful for it.

Kevin Hayes played for AV in New York -- where fans were sure AV "had it in" for Hayes, because he was tough on him -- before Philly and now says playing for Vigneault back then was the best thing that ever happened to his career even if he wasn't wild about the "tough love" he got back then.

The Sedin twins did a pretty lengthy interview in the Swedish press after their retirement. They were highly complimentary toward AV, his impact on the Canucks during their time together and in their own careers.

Last season here, Vigneault got a lot of buy-in for shorter shifts, and 200-foot play. Not sure where that's gone this season. But it was a big part of why the Flyers shaved their GAA so dramatically a year ago and the backslide into 2018-19 like play is why the team is where it is now. If you are going to extensively blame AV for what's gone on this season, you have to give him proportionate credit for last year's improvement.

As for Bowman, you are missing the point. When he coached the Habs, Penguins and Red Wings, he had rosters loaded to the brim with Hall of Fame and all-star talent. He got them to play to their potential. When he coached the Sabres with just-OK talent (with rosters of his own creation; handpicking whom he'd coach), they spun their wheels.

The point is that the players will ultimately be the ones to make a coach look brilliant or ordinary.
- bmeltzer

All those stories are great. I bet you can find just as many negative ones as well. you think he is a great coach, no biggie. I don't.

Didn't miss the point on Bowman. He was the winningest coach in sabres history until ruff passed him. So did he get them to play to their potential and they just were not good enough? Again his coaching ability and his roster picking are 2 diff issues.

I am not blaming AV for what has gone wrong this season. He is part of the blame along with many other components.

All those stories are great. I bet you can find just as many negative ones as well. you think he is a great coach, no biggie. I don't.

Didn't miss the point on Bowman. He was the winningest coach in sabres history until ruff passed him. So did he get them to play to their potential and they just were not good enough? Again his coaching ability and his roster picking are 2 diff issues.
- login

All those stories are great. I bet you can find just as many negative ones as well. you think he is a great coach, no biggie. I don't.

Didn't miss the point on Bowman. He was the winningest coach in sabres history until ruff passed him. So did he get them to play to their potential and they just were not good enough? Again his coaching ability and his roster picking are 2 diff issues.

I am not blaming AV for what has gone wrong this season. He is part of the blame along with many other components.
- login

What a response LOGOUT

- Ftown19125

omg

What a response LOGOUT
- ClaudeFather

keep quiet you pos

What a response LOGOUT
- ClaudeFather

he already moved the goal posts from he's average to he's not in the top tier of great coaches. what a (frank)ing clown.

This 'impact' thing is quite vague and I am not aware of any clear cut numerical definition that measures "impact."
- PT21

Dom Luszczyszyn at the Athletic has run a model to measure player impact and scores teams accordingly. I am sure there are others among the advanced stat crowd. I tried to do something similar on a smaller scale. Of course there is no single stat to use and some subjective bias goes into the logical choices. Things like goals scored are easy impact measures; things like values for play driving or shot suppression are more objective. I have doubts about how much percentage of it can be predictive. In hindsight, it’s worth looking at though as there are lessons there.

he already moved the goal posts from he's average to he's not in the top tier of great coaches. what a (frank)ing clown.
- Ftown19125

moved nothing you dope. He is average andy. I am flattered you keep following me around. When you want that milkey sauce?

moved nothing you dope. He is average andy. I am flattered you keep following me around. When you want that milkey sauce?
- login

i keep following you to the site i've been reading/posting on for years.

AV and Bowman in the same sentence as a coach. Sure why not. Being a good coach doesn't mean your a good GM.

AV isn't and won't be considered in the upper tier of great/very good coaches. Part of the ole boys club.
- login

I think Scotty Bowman deserves a really nice golf clap. After all he coached one of the great teams in NHL history, the 70's Montreal Canadians, comprised mostly of Canadian players that, up to I think 1976, only the Canadians had first dibs to draft. Yes, what an accomplishment! But wait, keep that golf clap going because there's more.

Bowman spends 7 seasons in Buffalo where he has 1 first place finish (the first year he coached the team) but was never able to bring them to the next level. So Bowman goes to the Penguins with Lemieux, Jagr, Stevens, Coffey, Mullen, Murphy, Ron Francis, Rick Tocchet and Bryan Trottier and wins the cup his first year, which BTW ANYONE of us could have coached that team to a Cup. Wait, keep the golf clap going a bit longer.

Then Bowman flees to Detroit where he inherits another stacked team and eventually wins 3 more cups.

So what is the morel of this story? It's that stacked teams make any coach look a lot better than they really are.

i keep following you to the site i've been reading/posting on for years.
- Ftown19125

keep slurping. OMG

keep slurping. OMG
- login

he's average. gets facts thrown at him that he's not average. he's not in the tier of great coaches.

he's average. gets facts thrown at him that he's not average. he's not in the tier of great coaches.
- Ftown19125

omg. Odd never hear his name mentioned when people talk about great coaches.

Selke Trophy winners that score over 30 in a season are 100% number 1 centers on championship teams. It isn't coots fault that the Flyers are not a championship caliber team.
- Richieattack18

I love the conviction with which you say that without a single word about the other centers and the other competing teams also trying for the same championship.

Its like saying: a 30 goal scorer is absolutely a 1st line forward on a championship team. Shouldn't your condition depend also on who the other forward lines are on the other competing teams?

keep quiet you pos
- login

Haha whenever you start getting put in your place you start with the 6th grade insults , keep moving you scumbag

Haha whenever you start getting put in your place you start with the 6th grade insults , keep moving you scumbag
- ClaudeFather

yeah put in my place. That post of yours really told me. Scumbag I love when you talk dirty as it just moved.

yeah put in my place. That post of yours really told me. Scumbag I love when you talk dirty as it just moved.
- login

Bill told you

Bill told you
- ClaudeFather

yeah he really told me. That was something. Coming to the defense of his coach. Here I thought chivalry was dead.

What if I told you our controlled exits are identical to last year and controlled entry into the other team zone, ditto. Our issue is the other team is exiting their zone and entering ours easier than last year. Which I would agree has something to do with niskanen but also to do with neutral zone play of all 5 players on the ice.
- Tfaehner

Is that true?

To my very imperfect eyes test, our entry and exits look very different. The entry, for example: they are going far more with the winger carrying/dumping the puck in rather than the center compared to last year.

yeah he really told me. That was something. Coming to the defense of his coach. Here I thought chivalry was dead.
- login

He gave you a lot of facts, actually.