it is easy to say they didn't draft well enough, looking back is always easy. Most just overlook circumstance. The Flyers had a top pick they placed 2nd in the lottery, they got Patrick. Circumstance they didn't get the 1st pick and the draft didn't seem to have a superstar. The flyers also got the second when they lost the 1st pick to the Hawks, they got JVR instead of Kane. On the flip side the Pens tank and get Crosby and Malkin, circumstance favored them. The Blues, they had some nice pieces, a pure sniper but no superstars. Getting ROR and Binnington playing lights out got them a cup. Good moves and circumstance helped, not a superstar

The good pieces the Flyers drafted are not even in their prime yet, none of them, maybe circumstance will turn their way. Maybe 1 player will hit his prime and go past his ceiling ALA G. Two to three prospects will hit their prime and hit their ceiling, 2-3 will hit their prime and just be good. The Flyers will ride a hot Carter Hart and pull off a ROR type signing. Seems that scenario would match up with a few teams you mention above. I personally think the Flyers need their players to play to their ability but will need a move or two to have a shot at the cup.
- wcorvette

Your first paragraph has a lot of history. Never mind. The past is past.
Your second paragraph is a lot of hope. One does not build anything on hope except the afterlife.

Now you tell me this through 3 steps:

1. Do the Flyers have the sort of players who project to be the superstars that bring the cup? Other than hope, where is the evidence?

2. If they don't have the players who are/project to be superstars, what is the most likely way to get them?

I defined "superstar", which is a subjective term as a reasonably consensus top 5-7 player at the start of the season.

People always bring up the Blues to me. Admittedly, that is the team where my thesis is the weakest, in that they have the least # of top players.

But I have to ask: even if I grant you that, that is 1 team out of 16 since the lock out. Do you really want to base your refutation on something that has a 6% success rate? What about the other 94%?
- PT21

Bingo

Please just win.

Let’s go Flyers!

Please just win.

Let’s go Flyers!
- NC Flyers Fan

This whole superstar thing is pretty dumb. You don’t think a Stanley cup winner would have good players? If we won a cup it would easily slot Cooter and Hart into your dumb a$$ superstar category. ROR and Pietro were not considered until that season. What were all the failures in Washington due to? They had all these superstars. It takes a team to win a championship, a good team

I have to ask you: is it so hard to understand the argument that while having superstars on teams is not sufficient for success, it is necessary or almost always so?

And that saying they are necessary does not mean that other factors, such as teamwork and good coaching, are also not necessary?
- PT21

There's a laundry list of qualities that are common to most Cup-winning teams, but you've only fixated on the one. Try to find a Cup winner that had bad goaltending in the PO's, or a stale coach, or below average team GA/G and/or PK, or didn't have a bunch of hates-to-lose personalities, or didn't have really good fortune w/ injuries. They're gonna be just as rare as teams w/o "left legs".

This whole superstar thing is pretty dumb. You don’t think a Stanley cup winner would have good players? If we won a cup it would easily slot Cooter and Hart into your dumb a$$ superstar category. ROR and Pietro were not considered until that season. What were all the failures in Washington due to? They had all these superstars. It takes a team to win a championship, a good team
- ClaudeFather

What you are really saying is 2 things:

1. players could turn out to be superstars during the cup run/after they won the cup .

Now you go back, and other than Blues, name me ONE team since lockout for which that was true. (Hint: you won't find it).

2. The importance of team and coach and all that jazz. Here is a novel thesis for you. How about the possibility that you need superstars AND a cohesive team AND a good coach? That all are necessary?

Because that would mean this: no superstar, no cup.

Top players on cup teams compared to
who the Flyers have right now...a lot of potential

Carter Hart- 22 year old having a rough year but will bounce back

Provorov and Myers- both 24, Myers having limited experience and we have a clear need to acquire a top veteran but who knows if that guy will be an scoring impact guy

Couturier- 28 and clearly a top center when healthy

Then the wingers who seem to take the biggest criticism: the talent is there, it is just a matter of multiple guys stepping up in the playoffs

Giroux- 33, Voracek and JVR- 31
TK and Lindblom- 24 and Farabee 21

Bunnaman and Twarynski recalled. Gostisbehere to taxi squad.

An infusion of bums in the lineup tonight! 🤡

There's a laundry list of qualities that is common to most Cup-winning teams, but you've only fixated on the one.
- Tomahawk

Things like "team spirit" or "team work" are very hard to discern. They occur behind public view or cannot be isolated. As such, it is difficult to discuss them because they are difficult to rank, like "character."

Things like coaching are the same. Awards like Jack Adams are often based on improvement rather than consistency. A guy who takes his team from 31 to 16 has a much better chance of winning than a guy who takes his team from 4 to 1.

So, the reason why I fixate on one is not because I diminish the importance of the others. Not at all. It is because the one I fixate on is the one that can be seen through the clearest lens.

I think however the reason you bring up the other things is because you do not wish to face the sheer objective data for the part I 'fixate' on.

The silly narrative being pushed about needing to draft high for a better chance and that attitude that the grass is always greener in the other teams farm system is incorrect. Once again, it’s the wingers that get the heat so I looked and this is what is true.

Ten Performing Wingers—not based on projections but rather the benefit of hindsight.
The list includes impact wingers on teams who either had a very deep playoff run or cup victory over the past 5 years (2016-20) and denotes their draft position. If the player was a first round pick, their overall order is noted in parentheses. This list does not include all impact wingers from the playoffs but merely the ones whose teams had the most success while they performed at a very high level by position comparison.

Kucherov TBL - Drafted 2nd rd/2011
Marchand BOS - Drafted 3rd rd/2006
Pastrnak BOS - Drafted 1st rd(25)/2014
Tarasenko STL - Drafted 1st rd(16)/2010
Ovechkin WSH - Drafted 1st rd(1)/2004
Smith VGK - Drafted 3rd rd/2009
Oshie WSH - Drafted 1st rd(24)/2005
Guentzel PIT - Drafted 3rd rd/2013
Kessel PIT - Drafted 1st rd(5)/2006
Killorn TBL - Drafted 3rd rd/2007

Bunnaman and Twarynski recalled. Gostisbehere to taxi squad.

An infusion of bums in the lineup tonight! 🤡
- PLindbergh31

4th pairing, 5th-lines... no playing down to the Sabres if your talent level is roughly equal to theirs, right?

4th pairing, 5th-lines... no playing down to the Sabres if your talent level is roughly equal to theirs, right?
- Tomahawk

Based on the benchings last game, I assume Patrick and Farabee scratched and Gustafsson in for Gostisbehere?

I don’t mind giving Patrick a few game reset. Might help him. If Farabee is benched for a bum like the guys added it’s just laughable

Bunnaman and Twarynski recalled. Gostisbehere to taxi squad.

An infusion of bums in the lineup tonight! 🤡
- PLindbergh31

there goes Bills prediction that he'd be in the lineup if he didnt get picked off waivers

I have to ask you: is it so hard to understand the argument that while having superstars on teams is not sufficient for success, it is necessary or almost always so?

And that saying they are necessary does not mean that other factors, such as teamwork and good coaching, are also not necessary?
- PT21

Not hard for me to understand either point.

The silly narrative being pushed about needing to draft high for a better chance and that attitude that the grass is always greener in the other teams farm system is incorrect. Once again, it’s the wingers that get the heat so I looked and this is what is true.

Ten Performing Wingers—not based on projections but rather the benefit of hindsight.
The list includes impact wingers on teams who either had a very deep playoff run or cup victory over the past 5 years (2016-20) and denotes their draft position. If the player was a first round pick, their overall order is noted in parentheses. This list does not include all impact wingers from the playoffs but merely the ones whose teams had the most success while they performed at a very high level by position comparison.

Kucherov TBL - Drafted 2nd rd/2011 (Tampa drafted Hedman #2, had won Norris before they won, established superstar)
Marchand BOS - Drafted 3rd rd/2006 (BOS signed Chara as a FA, had won Norris a couple of years before, established superstar)
Pastrnak BOS - Drafted 1st rd(25)/2014 (see Chara above)
Tarasenko STL - Drafted 1st rd(16)/2010 (Blues are the weakest case, but still Pietro was up there before cup year, drafted #4)
Ovechkin WSH - Drafted 1st rd(1)/2004 (speaks for itself)
Smith VGK - Drafted 3rd rd/2009 (close but no cigar)
Oshie WSH - Drafted 1st rd(24)/2005 (See Ovechkin)
Guentzel PIT - Drafted 3rd rd/2013 (Crosby #1, Malkin #2)
Kessel PIT - Drafted 1st rd(5)/2006 (See Crosby, Malkin above)
Killorn TBL - Drafted 3rd rd/2007 (see Hedman, above)
- NC Flyers Fan

You are erecting your own strawmen and then knocking them down. I didn't say anything about "deep playoff runs," and I have no idea why you focused on wingers exclusively.

I added some key players on the teams and their standings at the start of the season they won the cup

This whole superstar thing is pretty dumb. You don’t think a Stanley cup winner would have good players? If we won a cup it would easily slot Cooter and Hart into your dumb a$$ superstar category. ROR and Pietro were not considered until that season. What were all the failures in Washington due to? They had all these superstars. It takes a team to win a championship, a good team
- ClaudeFather

It takes both elements to win a cup, a good team with elite talent!

there goes Bills prediction that he'd be in the lineup if he didnt get picked off waivers
- Dkos

I wonder who sits ? Patrick ? Farabee ? Lindblom ?......a little surprised Ghost went to the Taxi squad....I didn’t notice any monster errors the other night and I thought he played good on Saturday....can’t say I’m understanding AV and some of his decisions lately. The guys that might replace him have been literally atrocious this year...

Bunnaman and Twarynski recalled. Gostisbehere to taxi squad.

An infusion of bums in the lineup tonight! 🤡
- PLindbergh31

So it was about cap space management after all.

Top players on cup teams compared to
who the Flyers have right now...a lot of potential

Carter Hart- 22 year old having a rough year but will bounce back

Provorov and Myers- both 24, Myers having limited experience and we have a clear need to acquire a top veteran but who knows if that guy will be an scoring impact guy

Couturier- 28 and clearly a top center when healthy

Then the wingers who seem to take the biggest criticism: the talent is there, it is just a matter of multiple guys stepping up in the playoffs

Giroux- 33, Voracek and JVR- 31
TK and Lindblom- 24 and Farabee 21
- NC Flyers Fan

Myers has played 97 NHL games, that is limited experience?

Hart: No, but hoping
Farabee: No, but hoping
Couturier: No, but really good (could be that Ryan O'Reilly type)
TK and Lindblom: not likely
G, Jake and JVR: No way, on the downside of the careers.

You are erecting your own strawmen and then knocking them down. I didn't say anything about "deep playoff runs," and I have no idea why you focused on wingers exclusively.

I added some key players on the teams and their standings at the start of the season they won the cup
- PT21

You should read it again, the argument is against your....must find stars in the top of 1-5 of the draft and only other teams have impact players that develop from within the rest of the draft.

Flyers—they have Couturier, Selke winner, an established top center

Your first paragraph has a lot of history. Never mind. The past is past.
Your second paragraph is a lot of hope. One does not build anything on hope except the afterlife.



Now you tell me this through 3 steps:

1. Do the Flyers have the sort of players who project to be the superstars that bring the cup? Other than hope, where is the evidence?

2. If they don't have the players who are/project to be superstars, what is the most likely way to get them?
- PT21

The Flyers don't have any superstars that I can see but I don't think ROR was considered an MVP before the cup run, I don't think Binnington was consider a top 3 goalie, they did not have a super star. Tell me if you know what these numbers are related to 45, 71, 11, 72

GOING FORWARD HOPE HAS TO BE PART OF THE EQUATION. Add in these are real players with a real history and I question it is just hope. You ask what is the most likely way to get a superstar? Sure, you can plan, maybe tank and get top picks. Then you need HOPE that a top 5 pick is a Kane, not just a JVR, Hope when you do tank and win the lottery the draft has a Crosby and not Alexander Daigle. Is drafting a good way to a superstar, as good as any. Can you still trade for a really good player, sure. I don't think either is easy, so you leave both options open. The Flyers constant drafting while lower in the 1st round and beyond still built a stock pile of assets, one where they can trade some pieces and still have some pieces to support a superstar if they find one. Assets you can trade to move up the draft to get the players you want. Is that more likely than winning the lottery where there is a generational talent? It's a false task to say you need to draft a super star, its a false task to say you need to trade for one, you need to keep your options open and make the best decision at the time. All the planning in the world, all the data in the world doesn't compare to real decisions, decisions that have to be made in the moment with the best available data.

Superstars are not Kopitar, Dougherty, ROR , Binnington quick even Bergeron, they are really good players who are an important part to real good teams who won . All top talent, all really good but they are not Crosby or Gretzky, McDavid etc

While I can't stand how long we have been waiting for a real good team, there is no doubt this team has a lot of pieces already and the team has the assets to go hunting for THEIR difference maker.

You can look back on the cup winners and each winner has something unique they point to as to why they won the cup, the #1 pick is always just a part of the reason.

Based on the benchings last game, I assume Patrick and Farabee scratched and Gustafsson in for Gostisbehere?

I don’t mind giving Patrick a few game reset. Might help him. If Farabee is benched for a bum like the guys added it’s just laughable
- PLindbergh31

Farabee will not be benched, that would make no sense unless again for discipline reasons.

I wonder who sits ? Patrick ? Farabee ? Lindblom ?......a little surprised Ghost went to the Taxi squad....I didn’t notice any monster errors the other night and I thought he played good on Saturday....can’t say I’m understanding AV and some of his decisions lately. The guys that might replace him have been literally atrocious this year...
- landros 2

i thought AV said yesterday that if he was available Ghost would be in the lineup?

1 Myers has played 97 NHL games, that is limited experience?

Hart: No, but hoping
Farabee: No, but hoping
2 Couturier: No, but really good (could be that Ryan O'Reilly type)
TK and Lindblom: not likely
3 G, Jake and JVR: No way, on the downside of the careers.
- jd250

1. 16 playoff games, just the one run.

2. Having a Selke caliber center is a big deal.

3. Look at the other post, I made with top wingers draft dates and think about the age of those contributors when their team was successful.