Some would disagree with you:

Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists, especially social anarchists, but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists. Those libertarians seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, or else to restrict their purview or effects to usufruct property norms, in favor of common or cooperative ownership and management, viewing private property as a barrier to freedom and liberty.
- bloatedmosquito

Libertarian Marxists? We're talking libertarianism.
Btw, John Locke 17th century. Karl Marx 19th century.
- RealityChecker

True, but John Locke was a liberal no?

From libertarianism.org:

In everyday conversation, “liberal” most commonly refers to someone left of center in mainstream politics, but not as far left as a communist.

Here, we are using “liberal” in a more general and older sense of the word that is still used in everyday conversation outside of the United States. Rather than being the opposite of “conservative,” this broader meaning encompasses large parts of both the left and right of modern American politics. It also includes modern libertarians and the “classical liberal” thinkers of the Enlightenment that influenced modern liberals of all stripes.

Interesting. I’ve never seen that description. Usually it’s expressed as strong personal freedoms, including an emphasis on property rights, though I can see a link to anarchism. Libertarian communism seems a complete oxymoron.

Thanks for sharing.
- SlightlyOffside

The property rights thing has nothing to do with libertarianism, it's all based on personal rights. Property rights where attached when the movement was right washed into being a repugnant right wing ideal that depowered it by making it pro corporationism, which is gross.

Libertarianism always confused me until I read that the American right wing co-opted the term for their own personal use.

Historically speaking, libertarianism began as a left wing political philosophy.
- bloatedmosquito

(frank)... You're on the same high as I, more solid posts, tip of the hat to you sir.

I would disagree. The political philosophy that leads to "libertarianism" is capitalist/private rights based. It shares elements with leftist ideas but it didn't originate as a left-ish ideal.

The problem lies in that there is no such thing as libertarianism or conservatism or liberalism. The lines get moved by the interpretation of the individual.



Anyway, I'd love to get into the philosophers like John Locke to explain my view but it's fcuking Friday and yeah... It's fcuking Friday afternoon.
- RealityChecker

Do it, philosophies are great on a Friday, let me pour myself a scotch

True, but John Locke was a liberal no?

From libertarianism.org:

In everyday conversation, “liberal” most commonly refers to someone left of center in mainstream politics, but not as far left as a communist.

Here, we are using “liberal” in a more general and older sense of the word that is still used in everyday conversation outside of the United States. Rather than being the opposite of “conservative,” this broader meaning encompasses large parts of both the left and right of modern American politics. It also includes modern libertarians and the “classical liberal” thinkers of the Enlightenment that influenced modern liberals of all stripes.
- bloatedmosquito

"Classical Liberalism" and modern day "Liberalism," are not the same. The former would be more conservative in today's context which you know.

I don't mind doing this. I just meant I didn't actually want to get into the meat and potatoes of it (talking philosophers and their works etc. - the mentally tough stuff.) Tip toeing around the edges is fine.

Oh, but you will!

Libertarian Marxist currents often draw from Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels' later works, specifically the Grundrisse and The Civil War in France; emphasizing the Marxist belief in the ability of the working class to forge its own destiny without the need for a state or vanguard party to mediate or aid its liberation. Along with anarchism, libertarian Marxism is one of the main currents of libertarian socialism.

BOOM.
- bloatedmosquito

Yup, eat the rich, off with her head and all that good stuff... enjoying my back reading today

Libertarian Marxists? We're talking libertarianism.
Btw, John Locke 17th century. Karl Marx 19th century.
- RealityChecker

Please, go on... I'm less familiar with John Locke then I am with other historical aspects of libertarianism.

Dahlen has 25 points in 11 games in the Allsvenskan.

He should probably go to a better team to play in the SHL. He's tried how many times to get them promoted and failed.

"Classical Liberalism" and modern day "Liberalism," are not the same. The former would be more conservative in today's context which you know.

I don't mind doing this. I just meant I didn't actually want to get into the meat and potatoes of it (talking philosophers and their works etc. - the mentally tough stuff.) Tip toeing around the edges is fine.
- RealityChecker

as I said, the term confuses me. I always thought it in terms of left of centre. Then I started to read about American interpretation of the term which was opposite to what little I knew.

Either way, Americans have distorted the philosophy for political benefit. Typical.

Please, go on... I'm less familiar with John Locke then I am with other historical aspects of libertarianism.
- Pres.cup

Knowing what you've posted, I'll venture to say that he will be one of your favourites (if not favourite) when you read some of his work.

You can find his stuff online but his essays are a good start. Two treatises and especially the essay on toleration and essay in human understanding.

Seriously, you'll be all about it.

"Classical Liberalism" and modern day "Liberalism," are not the same. The former would be more conservative in today's context which you know.

I don't mind doing this. I just meant I didn't actually want to get into the meat and potatoes of it (talking philosophers and their works etc. - the mentally tough stuff.) Tip toeing around the edges is fine.
- RealityChecker

I am a philosopher.

I am an ardent libertarian.

I am a social liberal

I belive in rewriting all laws to reflect human liberty.

I believe everything that doesn't infringe on personal freedom should be legal.
If I have no dependants and want to shoot up heroin, legal. If I have dependants, it imay infringe on their rights, illegal.

No seat belt, legal, but those under the age of majority must wear them as it's their freedom to live until they can decide for themselves.

Speeding, still Iliad because it endangers others right to live.

Being a billionaire, illegal, hoarding resources infringes on others ability to sustain themselves.

And on it goes.

(frank)... You're on the same high as I, more solid posts, tip of the hat to you sir.
- Pres.cup

It’s a lot to take in. Digging up the roots of certain philosophies is dirty business. Thank god I didn’t take poli-sci at university.

Knowing what you've posted, I'll venture to say that he will be one of your favourites (if not favourite) when you read some of his work.

You can find his stuff online but his essays are a good start. Two treatises and especially the essay on toleration and essay in human understanding.

Seriously, you'll be all about it.
- RealityChecker

I'll look into them, I enjoy a good essay with my scotch

It’s a lot to take in. Digging up the roots of certain philosophies is dirty business. Thank god I didn’t take poli-sci at university.
- bloatedmosquito

It's nice when people don't pigeonhole you for starting a political belief like this one, generally I get accused of being a far right nut when I start these topics.

as I said, the term confuses me. I always thought it in terms of left of centre. Then I started to read about American interpretation of the term which was opposite to what little I knew.

Either way, Americans have distorted the philosophy for political benefit. Typical.
- bloatedmosquito

Counter point is that labels such as left and right are artificial especially in terms of real politik.

Add in hypocrisy disguised as political expediency and you get a wish-wash of ideas.

Remember when conservative meant political conservative meant classical Liberalism meant free trade?

Sh!t changes except the fact that people are hypocritical.

Forget John Locke, maybe Thomas Hobbes had it right with life being nasty, brutish and short.

Counter point is that labels such as left and right are artificial especially in terms of real politik.

Add in hypocrisy disguised as political expediency and you get a wish-wash of ideas.

Remember when conservative meant political conservative meant classical Liberalism meant free trade?

Sh!t changes except the fact that people are hypocritical.

Forget John Locke, maybe Thomas Hobbes had it right with life being nasty, brutish and short.
- RealityChecker

100% agree. That’s why I used the capitalism vs socialism false dichotomy title. The “either/or” position is BS. A person can have both philosophical tendencies without conflict. Yet we are being told “No, you must choose a side!”

Some would disagree with you:

Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists, especially social anarchists, but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists. Those libertarians seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, or else to restrict their purview or effects to usufruct property norms, in favor of common or cooperative ownership and management, viewing private property as a barrier to freedom and liberty.
- bloatedmosquito

So......Hippies, got it

Counter point is that labels such as left and right are artificial especially in terms of real politik.

Add in hypocrisy disguised as political expediency and you get a wish-wash of ideas.

Remember when conservative meant political conservative meant classical Liberalism meant free trade?

Sh!t changes except the fact that people are hypocritical.

Forget John Locke, maybe Thomas Hobbes had it right with life being nasty, brutish and short.
- RealityChecker

Hobbies was right, fun fact, he was an inspiration for hobbes of Calvin and hobbes

- NorthNuck

You need to go post this in the Leafs thread.

100% agree. That’s why I used the capitalism vs socialism false dichotomy title. The “either/or” position is BS. A person can have both philosophical tendencies without conflict. Yet we are being told “No, you must choose a side!”
- bloatedmosquito

I agree with you to a certain point but there comes a line when people try to rationalize two opposing viewpoints.

An example being (in American politics) not wanting socialized healthcare but wanting everyone to be insured. Those two views cannot co-exist.

I don't think it's a matter of forcing people to choose a side. I think it's more a matter of people wanting to self-identity with one group but actually having the ideals of the opposite.

Getting back to the American model, I think where the country got really messed up was the ideal of "rugged individualism." That is their true religion and politics takes advantage of it.

So......Hippies, got it
- Shuswap Wap

Charles Manson was a libertarian.

Charles Manson was a libertarian.
- bloatedmosquito

He was an angry hippy.

Charles Manson was a libertarian.
- bloatedmosquito

Guy made Ruby look like average height.