If Gostisbehere can get healthy and get his game back, he is a much better player than Hagg is.
- MJL

In the offensive zone. Not the d zone. Ghost has a lot to prove this year. Hope he turns it around if he’s here but if not how much longer does this continue before he is what he is at this point. He looked better on his skates in the playoffs, but he is on very thin ice. I am on the trade him side. His p p time has been taken by others.

In the offensive zone. Not the d zone. Ghost has a lot to prove this year. Hope he turns it around if he’s here but if not how much longer does this continue before he is what he is at this point. He looked better on his skates in the playoffs, but he is on very thin ice. I am on the trade him side. His p p time has been taken by others.
- Peter Richards

Gostisbehere has a lot of holes in his defensive game. At 27 years of age that isn't changing. For Gostisbehere to be an effective player he has to be elite offensively like he was 2 years ago to negate his defensive shortcomings.

Gostisbehere has a lot of holes in his defensive game. At 27 years of age that isn't changing. For Gostisbehere to be an effective player he has to be elite offensively like he was 2 years ago to negate his defensive shortcomings.
- PLindbergh31

So does Hagg though. If they aren't going to play Ghost I hope they find a way to trade him, but the only advantages Hagg has on him are that he's bigger and stronger in my opinion. That doesn't make him better.

I think Ghost anticipates passes better than Hagg, but if/when they get hemmed in the defensive end I have more faith in Hagg possibly separating a player from the puck I guess. And he's more willing to grind it out. They both turn the puck over a decent amount. From an offensive standpoint it's not even close.

Gostisbehere has a lot of holes in his defensive game. At 27 years of age that isn't changing. For Gostisbehere to be an effective player he has to be elite offensively like he was 2 years ago to negate his defensive shortcomings.
- PLindbergh31

Right now that season seems like an outlier. Like cheechoo or karlson s first year with vegas.

I tend to agree. People who are a lot older than 14, have been give second chances.
- PLindbergh31

I feel bad for the kid.

He cannot be a degenerate if he has managed to have the work ethic to get drafted at this level.

He went before a judge. He took his punishment. If this was shoplifting, or vagrancy, or drugs, which would receive greater criminal/civil penalties, he would be fine.

But to essentially end a kids career, his dream, it just seems so inhumane. Who will give him a to now?

At the very least, I expect he will sue and I suspect it will be a multi-million $ settlement. I am sure Coyotes have already factored that in.

So does Hagg though. If they aren't going to play Ghost I hope they find a way to trade him, but the only advantages Hagg has on him are that he's bigger and stronger in my opinion. That doesn't make him better.

I think Ghost anticipates passes better than Hagg, but if/when they get hemmed in the defensive end I have more faith in Hagg possibly separating a player from the puck I guess. And he's more willing to grind it out. They both turn the puck over a decent amount. From an offensive standpoint it's not even close.
- Ftown19125

I agree that ghost can anticipate a pass in the neutral zone better.

Better shot and passer yes. But it’s usually what have you done lately. I get the injuries but if offense is the seller for ghost and all think Haag is better defensively....., then last year we use the excuse that ghost was injured. Why Haag has the same amount of points. Minus the one year. Putting up 30 some points but being minus 20. I’ll take Haag on the third pair.

I feel bad for the kid.

He cannot be a degenerate if he has managed to have the work ethic to get drafted at this level.

He went before a judge. He took his punishment. If this was shoplifting, or vagrancy, or drugs, which would receive greater criminal/civil penalties, he would be fine.

But to essentially end a kids career, his dream, it just seems so inhumane. Who will give him a to now?

At the very least, I expect he will sue and I suspect it will be a multi-million $ settlement. I am sure Coyotes have already factored that in.
- PT21

It's really crazy if this was just from 7th and 8th grade, but if it was all through HS I would think a little bit differently. I haven't seen anything saying that, just junior high.

On what grounds could he sue?

It's really crazy if this was just from 7th and 8th grade, but if it was all through HS I would think a little bit differently. I haven't seen anything saying that, just junior high.

On what grounds could he sue?
- Ftown19125

Cusp of junior high/HS I believe. He was 14?

Apparently he wrote to all the teams and made them aware. They drafted him. Then they released him based on publicity but with no new information as far as I know.

Loss of career earnings, emotional trauma would be my guess.

Cusp of junior high/HS I believe. He was 14?

Apparently he wrote to all the teams and made them aware. They drafted him. Then they released him based on publicity but with no new information as far as I know.

Loss of career earnings, emotional trauma would be my guess.
- PT21

Add Lawyer to your resume.

Educate yourself. It will do you good so then you can understand what they represent.
- Striiker

Tell us what they represent.

Cusp of junior high/HS I believe. He was 14?

Apparently he wrote to all the teams and made them aware. They drafted him. Then they released him based on publicity but with no new information as far as I know.

Loss of career earnings, emotional trauma would be my guess.
- PT21

Doesn't seem like something he could sue for to me. What he did violates every message the NHL is trying to put out about acceptance. I have no idea though, you could be right.

I don't think that something you do or say in grade school should have these kinds of consequences though.

In the offensive zone. Not the d zone. Ghost has a lot to prove this year. Hope he turns it around if he’s here but if not how much longer does this continue before he is what he is at this point. He looked better on his skates in the playoffs, but he is on very thin ice. I am on the trade him side. His p p time has been taken by others.
- Peter Richards

I'll repeat what I've stated to you many, many times. The idea in hockey is to play in the other teams end more than yours. Defending is losing hockey not matter how well you do it. There is more to playing defense than defending in the corners, on the walls and at the net. Gostisbehere when on his game is a strong rush defender who breaks up a lot of plays in the neutral zone and at the blue line. He moves the puck well and create offense for the team and beats forechecks. When he is playing as he has been capable of playing in the past, he is a much better player than Hagg will ever be. No knock against Hagg. The question of course is can Gostisbehere get that game back? I have no qualms with anyone who says he won't.

Cusp of junior high/HS I believe. He was 14?

Apparently he wrote to all the teams and made them aware. They drafted him. Then they released him based on publicity but with no new information as far as I know.

Loss of career earnings, emotional trauma would be my guess.
- PT21

Two bullies ...one child that couldn’t defend himself. The one bully has showed remorse as per the bullied child’s family....the other bully, with his sense of entitlement has to this day never apologized to this kid. The yotes are doing this kid a favour. He needs to get his priorities in order.....Character matters.... yes he was 14 when he pulled the Richard move, but he’s 18 now and still hasn’t done the right thing. If he is indeed sorry he will get his opportunity, but he will have to earn it. I have no time for bullies, those actions are both cowardly and reprehensible.
(frank) him.

Doesn't seem like something he could sue for to me. What he did violates every message the NHL is trying to put out about acceptance. I have no idea though, you could be right.

I don't think that something you do or say in grade school should have these kinds of consequences though.
- Ftown19125

The question is, how exactly is the 'NHL message' legally encoded in the drafting process? What is the legal status of being drafted? Does the draftee have any rights? Is there a presumption to being offered a contract absence of new information/new developments post draft? By acting now upon information they had earlier, did they violate an explicit agreement or an implicit (good faith) convention?

It is true that he is now an UFA. But, its also true that others teams have finished doing their drafting. Their rosters are now almost complete. By the Coyotes drafting him then with full information and then precluding other teams from doing so, did they impinge on his chances of being drafted by another team which might have acted differently?

And finally, if he does not end up getting a job, anywhere can he sue the NHL for defamation of character at least, assuming that there are no such instances in his life after that one?

These are some common sense questions I guess I would explore if I were in his camp.

I am just guessing out loud. Its possible he does not have enough legal standing. Hopefully he will at least seek very good counsel.

Educate yourself. It will do you good so then you can understand what they represent.
- Striiker

You remind me of this guy James Tanner.

Two bullies ...one child that couldn’t defend himself. The one bully has showed remorse as per the bullied child’s family....the other bully, with his sense of entitlement has to this day never apologized to this kid. The yotes are doing this kid a favour. He needs to get his priorities in order.....Character matters.... yes he was 14 when he pulled the Richard move, but he’s 18 now and still hasn’t done the right thing. If he is indeed sorry he will get his opportunity, but he will have to earn it. I have no time for bullies, those actions are both cowardly and reprehensible.
(frank) him.
- landros 2

Since when did "apologizing" for past misdeeds become career relevant? Did the court mandated restitution/punishment include the necessity of an apology?

If no, why are we trying him in public, without full information, and imposing punishments and expectations of behavior a court did not find it necessary to do?

I’ve gotten tired of the Ghost vs. Hagg comparison. They are not similar players nor do they have the same role. It would make more sense to compare him to someone in a similar role at least. Gus or Sanheim. I think Ghost supporters need to make their case there, if any case can be made.

The question is, how exactly is the 'NHL message' legally encoded in the drafting process? What is the legal status of being drafted? Does the draftee have any rights? Is there a presumption to being offered a contract absence of new information/new developments post draft? By acting now upon information they had earlier, did they violate an explicit agreement or an implicit (good faith) convention?

It is true that he is now an UFA. But, its also true that others teams have finished doing their drafting. Their rosters are now almost complete. By the Coyotes drafting him then with full information and then precluding other teams from doing so, did they impinge on his chances of being drafted by another team which might have acted differently?

And finally, if he does not end up getting a job, anywhere can he sue the NHL for defamation of character at least, assuming that there are no such instances in his life after that one?

These are some common sense questions I guess I would explore if I were in his camp.

I am just guessing out loud. Its possible he does not have enough legal standing. Hopefully he will at least seek very good counsel.
- PT21

Not sure if it's encoded anywhere legally, but as far as the presumption to a contract, all draftees don't get signed. So I don't see how it violates anything in that regard. I also don't believe the NHL are the ones defaming him, that would be the guy that was bullied. And it also doesn't help his case that the things said happen to be true.

Obviously I don't know a lot of the answers to these, I'm just saying I don't see how this kid could sue for anything. I would think a team could cut ties with a draftee for any reason, but I really don't know.

Since when did "apologizing" for past misdeeds become career relevant? Did the court mandated restitution/punishment include the necessity of an apology?

If no, why are we trying him in public, without full information, and imposing punishments and expectations of behavior a court did not find it necessary to do?
- PT21

Obviously the yotes agree with me. It’s about character. It’s about the image of a franchise. It’s about where we are today in society. He’s already been tried. Apparently he told teams he had made peace with the victim, and it has now come to light that was not the case. I’m sick of hearing about “second chance” BS when it’s pretty obvious he Was more worried about his own draft status then The well being of his victim....again F him.

Not sure if it's encoded anywhere legally, but as far as the presumption to a contract, all draftees don't get signed. So I don't see how it violates anything in that regard. I also don't believe the NHL are the ones defaming him, that would be the guy that was bullied. And it also doesn't help his case that the things said happen to be true.

Obviously I don't know a lot of the answers to these, I'm just saying I don't see how this kid could sue for anything. I would think a team could cut ties with a draftee for any reason, but I really don't know.
- Ftown19125

Lets say the following happened.

A team drafts a player. Then, releases him. Reason: they don't like his haircut.

An employer calls a student and says they will give him an offer. No offer yet in writing. Student stops interviewing with others. Employer says - gee, we changed our mind. By that time, recruiting season is over and others have been hired.

Do these individuals have a right to sue? If no, fine. But if yes, I would think this guy will have some of the same standing.

Not sure if it's encoded anywhere legally, but as far as the presumption to a contract, all draftees don't get signed. So I don't see how it violates anything in that regard. I also don't believe the NHL are the ones defaming him, that would be the guy that was bullied. And it also doesn't help his case that the things said happen to be true.

Obviously I don't know a lot of the answers to these, I'm just saying I don't see how this kid could sue for anything. I would think a team could cut ties with a draftee for any reason, but I really don't know.
- Ftown19125

Sue ? For what ? I don’t think there’s a professional contract anywhere that doesn’t have morality clauses in the wording. There’s more to being a professional athlete then just talent. I’m not saying it’s to late for the kid, but this is something he will have to face if he wants a career in hockey.

Lets say the following happened.

A team drafts a player. Then, releases him. Reason: they don't like his haircut.

An employer calls a student and says they will give him an offer. No offer yet in writing. Student stops interviewing with others. Employer says - gee, we changed our mind. By that time, recruiting season is over and others have been hired.

Do these individuals have a right to sue? If no, fine. But if yes, I would think this guy will have some of the same standing.
- PT21

Not a lawyer, but if nothing is in writing then that student is (frank)ed. They can try to sue, but how do they prove that the employer even made an offer if nothing is in writing?

Obviously the yotes agree with me. It’s about character. It’s about the image of a franchise. It’s about where we are today in society. He’s already been tried. Apparently he told teams he had made peace with the victim, and it has now come to light that was not the case. I’m sick of hearing about “second chance” BS when it’s pretty obvious he Was more worried about his own draft status then The well being of his victim....again F him.
- landros 2

This is a different matter. If he legally misrepresented the situation, then that's a different story. It all depends on what he said to teams and what "making peace with the victim" mean.

I understand that it can be repulsive, but a lot of stuff is repulsive and yet legally permissible.

Not a lawyer, but if nothing is in writing then that student is (frank)ed. They can try to sue, but how do they prove that the employer even made an offer if nothing is in writing?
- Ftown19125

Ok, lets say there is email. That would make the situation more comparable. Emails are not legally binding contracts.

What then? No one doubts Coyotes drafted him.

Just for emphasis...
These were Haggs numbers this year.
League-wide of defensemen with over 500 minutes at 5v5:
183 of 197 in CF%
170 of 198 in xGF%
189 of 197 in CF/60
143 of 197 in CA/60
181 of 197 in xGF/60
113 of 197 in xGA/60
197 of 197 in CF%rel
193 of 197 in CF/60rel
197 of 197 in xGF%rel
191 of 197 in xGF/60rel
1 of 197 in PDO (aka luck)

Hagg is one of the worst in the league, if not the worst, at his position.
- Striiker

yet he finished plus 14, so he isnt hurting the team that much huh?