Just curious but Keith's contract was one of those that if he retires before his contract ends chicago is on the hook for a cap recurring penalty correct? And if he was traded would that team then be on the hook also or just chicago?
- Taylorst1

I can't see Keith retiring early. He's the one who says he can play well into his 40s and is in excellent shape. Whether he plays into his 40s with the Hawks and can still play at a high level are other things but still expect him to live up to this goal.

Except that a 1st+ has been the typical return for a rental for years at the TDL. Ryan Hartman got that.
- L_B_R

This is not a typical year, nor will next one

Except that a 1st+ has been the typical return for a rental for years at the TDL. Ryan Hartman got that.
- L_B_R

Has Sakic ever made a trade like that? Would have to be a team on Saad's list.

Friedman reporting Taylor Hall to Buffalo. (no confirmation, yet) Guess Eichel will quiet down, now.
- pdx2ord

Hall signs for 1 year at 8M. He must think the market will be better next year.

The penalty always accrues to Chicago, unfortunately. Hence, the benefit of having Hossa on LTIR after he left.
- pdx2ord

I see so chicago isthe only one at risk then. Appreciate the info

Why not Chicago try to sign Taylor hall for that 8M 1 year deal?

And then ship him at the deadline.



Stan may be out of a job come May....

I can't see Keith retiring early. He's the one who says he can play well into his 40s and is in excellent shape. Whether he plays into his 40s with the Hawks and can still play at a high level are other things but still expect him to live up to this goal.
- Theo Fox

I was just curious how the a p recapture penalty works if he gets traded then retires, the other poster said chicago is , I thought both teams where as to whom feels the brunt of that I assume chicago.


Toews , keith amd kane I'm not sure their is a market or a return that benefits chicago the way in normal times we would see . Do you concur

I would say objectively he is overpaid. He is the 90th highest paid player in the league, 14 th highest left winger, 16th highest right winger. 45 th highest forward. The stats you point out do not equate to the salary he is making. Maybe Rocky looked at what Boston is paying for salaries and their success and is saying I am not getting what I am paying for.
- LAHawk

Wait, what success has Boston had since 2011? I mean, congrats on them making it to the finals but then losing, I guess. If they are able to be successful in the next 2 years when they have their core locked up, I'll be more impressed.

Also, I'm not really arguing that Saad is worth his contract in terms of points alone. Hell, I don't even know if I'm arguing that he deserves it in general (but if I was, I'd be including EVP comps, TOI + usage/deployment because context matters). I was just pointing out that Saad has been a top 20-30 winger in the league for production the past two years who is also strong defensively and is a possession driver so saying he's a 3rd liner is a bit off. Jamie Benn

Even if that's not worth $6m, it's definitely worth more than a bottom pairing d-man especially with $1m shaved off the cap hit.

This is not a typical year, nor will next one
- vabeachbear

Which is why the timing is bad. I feel like that's often the issue with some of Bowman's trades - Leddy, Bickell, Saad part 1, Panarin. It happens to the best of the GMs, it's just disappointing. I guess we'll have to see what the TDL brings this next year to see if rental prices will be dramatically different.

Has Sakic ever made a trade like that? Would have to be a team on Saad's list.
- rpeters01

No, but why not then trade Saad before his NMC kicked in? The timing is definitely a part of the problem with the trade and return.

Wait, what success has Boston had since 2011? I mean, congrats on them making it to the finals but then losing, I guess. If they are able to be successful in the next 2 years when they have their core locked up, I'll be more impressed.

Also, I'm not really arguing that Saad is worth his contract in terms of points alone. Hell, I don't even know if I'm arguing that he deserves it in general (but if I was, I'd be including EVP comps, TOI + usage/deployment because context matters). I was just pointing out that Saad has been a top 20-30 winger in the league for production the past two years who is also strong defensively and is a possession driver so saying he's a 3rd liner is a bit off. Jamie Benn

Even if that's not worth $6m, it's definitely worth more than a bottom pairing d-man especially with $1m shaved off the cap hit.
- L_B_R

Saad imo is a solid top 6 guy but he isn't a game changer like a hossa who could drive the offense.
I also think his inconsistency and inability to build enough chemistry playing either with toews or kane , probably made the decision easier to move him.

I’m a lifelong Chicagoan and the moniker “Second City” has always annoyed me, mainly because for most of my sports fan life there was a ring of truth to it – Chicago teams were second class.

I’ve been a rabid Blackhawks and Bears fan all my life (baseball and basketball not so much). I was only 7 when the Hawks won in 1961 and don’t remember it. But I was paying attention to sports and remember how excited I was when the Bears won in 1963. But then their star running back, Willie Gallimore, died in a car crash the next summer and that put a dampener on that, Even after drafting Gale Sayers and Richard Butkus in the same draft in 1965 – they never came close to winning again until they won the Super Bowl in 1985. But then the cheap McCaskey’s wouldn’t pay Wilbur Marshall and the dynasty was over before it barely begun. There were a lot of very lean years as a Bears fan between 1963 and the present.

Likewise with the Hawks. We came close a few times but always finished second or worse. We had some good teams but there always was one or two teams that were better – Second City USA. But again, lots of very lean years as a Hawks fan. It was made all the worse by Dollar Bill’s reign of cheapness.

But, here’s the long winded point – through all those lean years of Blackhawks and Bears fandom, what kept me going was watching individual players. It got to be that I cared more about Payton’s rushing records and Savard’s wizardry than I cared about team success because I knew the team wasn’t good enough to win the championship. That’s the way it has been for most years in my life of being a Bears and Hawks fan.

But then 2010/2013/2015 happened and it was different. I still wanted my favorite players to do well but I cared more about team success than player success because I knew the team was good enough to win the championship. It was a new experience and it was great.

But sometime after the 2015/16 season I knew the Hawks weren’t good enough and I went back to caring more about Kane’s scoring totals and Dach’s development than I did about team wins and losses. I still wanted the team to win but in my heart of hearts I knew they weren’t good enough to win the Cup.

That’s where I’m at going into these next few years. I’m going to enjoy watching individual players grow and succeed because it’s unrealistic to hope the team wins the Cup, And I’m OK with that – been there and done that most of my sports loving life.

Saad imo is a solid top 6 guy but he isn't a game changer like a hossa who could drive the offense.
I also think his inconsistency and inability to build enough chemistry playing either with toews or kane , probably made the decision easier to move him.
- Taylorst1

Rumors are floating saad wanted out, good for him.

Saad imo is a solid top 6 guy but he isn't a game changer like a hossa who could drive the offense.
I also think his inconsistency and inability to build enough chemistry playing either with toews or kane , probably made the decision easier to move him.
- Taylorst1

No one is claiming he's Hossa. No one would expect a return similar to what Hossa at a similar age would get. Saad is still a top 6 two-way player who drives possession. You're seriously not disappointed in a 3rd pairing d-man in return for when they retained? Even with the cap / salary situation for many teams, that's lackluster or at least not what they really need during a rebuild (which is picks/prospects).

I'm confused on what you mean by inability to build chemistry with Toews or Kane when he's been good with both. Saad-Toews do need a good balance with RW but so did Toews-Hossa and then Saad-Kane have been good with practically everyone between them (excluding Pirri). Saad's inconsistency in production mostly lines up with his shuffle away from top 6 players and/or to the RW where he is objectively worse on offense, yes.

Ftr, I have no issue with them trading Saad - my issue is with the return alone. As stated above, I'd have preferred something that will help the future a bit more. That's really all.

I’m a lifelong Chicagoan and the moniker “Second City” has always annoyed me, mainly because for most of my sports fan life there was a ring of truth to it – Chicago teams were second class.

I’ve been a rabid Blackhawks and Bears fan all my life (baseball and basketball not so much). I was only 7 when the Hawks won in 1961 and don’t remember it. But I was paying attention to sports and remember how excited I was when the Bears won in 1963. But then their star running back, Willie Gallimore, died in a car crash the next summer and that put a dampener on that, Even after drafting Gale Sayers and Richard Butkus in the same draft in 1965 – they never came close to winning again until they won the Super Bowl in 1985. But then the cheap McCaskey’s wouldn’t pay Wilbur Marshall and the dynasty was over before it barely begun. There were a lot of very lean years as a Bears fan between 1963 and the present.

Likewise with the Hawks. We came close a few times but always finished second or worse. We had some good teams but there always was one or two teams that were better – Second City USA. But again, lots of very lean years as a Hawks fan. It was made all the worse by Dollar Bill’s reign of cheapness.

But, here’s the long winded point – through all those lean years of Blackhawks and Bears fandom, what kept me going was watching individual players. It got to be that I cared more about Payton’s rushing records and Savard’s wizardry than I cared about team success because I knew the team wasn’t good enough to win the championship. That’s the way it has been for most years in my life of being a Bears and Hawks fan.

But then 2010/2013/2015 happened and it was different. I still wanted my favorite players to do well but I cared more about team success than player success because I knew the team was good enough to win the championship. It was a new experience and it was great.

But sometime after the 2015/16 season I knew the Hawks weren’t good enough and I went back to caring more about Kane’s scoring totals and Dach’s development than I did about team wins and losses. I still wanted the team to win but in my heart of hearts I knew they weren’t good enough to win the Cup.

That’s where I’m at going into these next few years. I’m going to enjoy watching individual players grow and succeed because it’s unrealistic to hope the team wins the Cup, And I’m OK with that – been there and done that most of my sports loving life.
- EbonyRaptor

Wow ebonyraptor I know we have had our differences but I must say with all sincerity your openess and love for the game and struggles as a fan are heartfelt and I to share that same feeling.

Just wanted to say great life experience story you shared

No one is claiming he's Hossa. No one would expect a return similar to what Hossa at a similar age would get. He's still a top 6 two-way player who drives possession. You're seriously not disappointed in a 3rd pairing d-man in return for that when they retained? Even with the cap / salary situation for many teams, that's lackluster or at least not what they really need during a rebuild (which is picks/prospects).

I'm confused on what you mean by inability to build chemistry with Toews or Kane when he's been good with both. Saad-Toews do need a good balance with RW but so did Toews-Hossa and then Saad-Kane have been good with practically everyone between them (excluding Pirri).

Saad's inconsistency in production mostly lines up with his shuffle away from top 6 players and/or to the RW where he is objectively worse on offense, yes.

Ftr, I have no issue with them trading Saad - my issue is with the return alone. As stated above, I'd have preferred something that will help the future a bit more. That's really all.
- L_B_R

Saad first year back was lackluster and disappointing. The entire reason stan brought Saad back was toews pushed for it to give toews help on his line. He was moved around to get him to be consistent with either toews or Kane, chemistry imo wasn't their and consistent one minute Saad is having 2 great games then he goes mia for many.

Regarding Zadorov I like his size and he hits his defensive side is ok but he is still young its a 1 year deal and if he plays great chicago can resign him if not chicago is locked in .

Stan has never won any of his trades and with a hard cap a expansion draft next year stan doesn't hold any leverage .

That sounds correct according to what we know.

At the end of the day, if management chooses not to communicate with the players to some degree or other, then that's on them.

I just think it would be naive for management to think that the players are going to be cool with the transactions and be on board wholeheartedly with whatever the plan is.

And maybe management simply doesn't care what the players think. I personally don't like that approach but management also may not care what a fan like me thinks.
- Theo Fox

I really don't understand what the big deal is. The team has to do what they think is best for the team. Last time i checked Toews, Kane, Keith or Seabrook are not in the front office.

Can you imagine every team asking permission to make a move, this isn't the NBA where 2 to 3 players essentially can determine if you are a championship team.

You certainly seem not to have much respect for your fellow workers.

Fortunately, the business world is moving away from that model toward one that recognizes people at all levels perform better when they are made a part of the process, and that they have more to contribute the a 9 to 5 mentality.

Not to make the business organization a democracy - management mus make the decisions - but getting as much buy-in up and down the lineup as practical creates dividends - especially when internal and external forces turn negative.

As today - with the general financial situation, the league financial situation, and the Hawk talent situation.
- StLBravesFan

All of this is nice in theory, but I have a really hard time understanding how it can work with professional sports teams where there are huge differences in the ages of players, in the term and value of contracts, undetermined length of career and there is no set retirement age etc.

Whatever communication was to happen should have occurred at the end of season exit meetings. At that time Bowman could have told Toews that the "management group doesn't think this team is good enough to compete and some hard decisions have to be made with some veteran players so the squad can get younger, bigger and faster in order to compete. John, you should expect some changes". I don't think any more needs to be shared and do we actually know Bowman didn't do that?

If Toews asks what players Bowman is thinking about moving, I don't think he deserves that specific info. Just like I don't think Toews or the other veterans should have input into what players or coaches should be moved out.

It is fairly well known that Auston Mathews pretty much got 'inflexible' Mike Babcock fired in Toronto. He basically did the dirty work for the rookie GM who wanted a different coach anyway. How has that integrated line of communication worked out for the better?

How about Lou Lamoriello who doesnt tolerate unshaven players and doesn't share any of what he is thinking with anybody. Uncle Lou seems to have survived in the league applying his 1960's mindset.

My point - players play, coaches coach, managers manage and ultimately they all report to the owner who is in it to turn a buck. Rocky isn't turning a buck right now so upheaval shouldn't be a surprise.

I really don't understand what the big deal is. The team has to do what they think is best for the team. Last time i checked Toews, Kane, Keith or Seabrook are not in the front office.

Can you imagine every team asking permission to make a move, this isn't the NBA where 2 to 3 players essentially can determine if you are a championship team.
- BetweenTheDots

There is a very big difference between communicating the direction the organization is going to the core players who made the organization successful, and asking permission to do deals.

If the what he said was quoted accurately, Toews cleared out his locker believing the team was again trying to make the playoffs and take the next step as the youngsters developed next season. Instead, Stan let the #1 goalie walk, and traded the top line LW for a 3rd pair defenseman.

A little communication goes a long way.

My interpretation is the organization wasn't telling them anything. After the asskicking they took from the Preds wasn't enough to make them realize where this was heading, the stomping from Vegas should have confirmed it.
- Elbows15

Yes.
And I am glad they acquired Zadorov. He is needed
Some Rockford kids or average skill but willing to work boards type player may be on Bowman's agenda. Whomever replaces Saad will not be exactly what Saad provided. Bowman has opportunity with a #1 2021 to draft or trade for a top six power forward type

Why not Chicago try to sign Taylor hall for that 8M 1 year deal?

And then ship him at the deadline.



Stan may be out of a job come May....
- RedRevenge

I'd guess he has a NMC. But Buffalo?????????? man would have liked to see him land in CLB for 1 yr.

Saad first year back was lackluster and disappointing. The entire reason stan brought Saad back was toews pushed for it to give toews help on his line. He was moved around to get him to be consistent with either toews or Kane, chemistry imo wasn't their and consistent one minute Saad is having 2 great games then he goes mia for many.

Regarding Zadorov I like his size and he hits his defensive side is ok but he is still young its a 1 year deal and if he plays great chicago can resign him if not chicago is locked in .

Stan has never won any of his trades and with a hard cap a expansion draft next year stan doesn't hold any leverage .
- Taylorst1

Saad's first year back is now 3 seasons ago, though - he's had two near 50 points projected seasons with excellent two-way play typically facing the highest quality of competition. Saad-Toews were perfectly fine once they paired them with someone who could playmake and Saad hasn't ever had issues with Kane over the years objectively. His best line ended up being Anisimov-Kahun season before last season but he was really strong with Kubalik-Toews and Strome/Dach-Kane. Shooter-playmakers should alway be combos imo, even volume shooters like Saad.

Again, even if you don't think he's worth his cap hit, his actual play is still top 6 and so the return is disappointing. I don't dislike Zadorov as a bottom pairing d-man but it shouldn't take a top 6 forward to get that.

I'd be more interested in Zadorov if his hits did anything useful like lead to puck possession / recovery or points or kept him in the play, but they don't. Hits are a skill and quantity isn't as important as quality, though there are def players who have quality hits often (Seabrook, Hjammer, Buff in their primes). I'd love a d-man who knew how to hit well but so far Zadorov has been subpar with his hitting.

There is a very big difference between communicating the direction the organization is going to the core players who made the organization successful, and asking permission to do deals.

If the what he said was quoted accurately, Toews cleared out his locker believing the team was again trying to make the playoffs and take the next step as the youngsters developed next season. Instead, Stan let the #1 goalie walk, and traded the top line LW for a 3rd pair defenseman.

A little communication goes a long way.
- scottak

Its hard nowadays to truly know what was or wasn't said. Toews , kane , keith and seabrook while the organization wants their commitment to play , the writing wasnon the wall when mc d was axed that change is necessary and coming.


Also things happen if the core doesn't like it they can easily waive their nmc and voice their concerns internally that way.
I'm trying not to dis toews but he has been vocal lately on matters outside of hockey that I just feel he should stay in his lane and do the greatn outreach with all the kids he has done.

There is a very big difference between communicating the direction the organization is going to the core players who made the organization successful, and asking permission to do deals.

If the what he said was quoted accurately, Toews cleared out his locker believing the team was again trying to make the playoffs and take the next step as the youngsters developed next season. Instead, Stan let the #1 goalie walk, and traded the top line LW for a 3rd pair defenseman.

A little communication goes a long way.
- scottak

I really think this is way overblown, Toews is a big boy and has plenty of money to see a therapist about the direction the team is going in. If they are really upset about it i would make sure they have plenty of tissue boxes at their lockers. But honestly it's got to be upsetting realizing that fat contract you signed has consequences. Fwiw i believe when Toews changed his diet and his work out routine he didn't notify the team or when he was jumping off the rocks into the lake.

Saad's first year back is now 3 seasons ago, though - he's had two near 50 points projected seasons with excellent two-way play typically facing the highest quality of competition. Saad-Toews were perfectly fine once they paired them with someone who could playmake and Saad hasn't ever had issues with Kane over the years objectively. His best line ended up being Anisimov-Kahun season before last season but he was really strong with Kubalik-Toews and Strome/Dach-Kane. Shooter-playmakers should alway be combos imo, even volume shooters like Saad.

Again, even if you don't think he's worth his cap hit, his actual play is still top 6 and so the return is disappointing. I don't dislike Zadorov as a bottom pairing d-man but it shouldn't take a top 6 forward to get that.

I'd be more interested in Zadorov if his hits did anything useful like lead to puck possession / recovery or points or kept him in the play, but they don't. Hits are a skill and quantity isn't as important as quality, though there are def players who have quality hits often (Seabrook, Hjammer, Buff in their primes). I'd love a d-man who knew how to hit well but so far Zadorov has been subpar with his hitting.
- L_B_R

Excellent post and reasoning in your argument.

Surely Stan was equipped with all of the information you looked at. So what do you think the real reason the trade was made now when he could have waited for a better deal to pop up?

My guess - lots of pressure from the top of the house to cut costs as much and as quickly as possible. Its almost always about the money.

All of this is nice in theory, but I have a really hard time understanding how it can work with professional sports teams where there are huge differences in the ages of players, in the term and value of contracts, undetermined length of career and there is no set retirement age etc.

Whatever communication was to happen should have occurred at the end of season exit meetings. At that time Bowman could have told Toews that the "management group doesn't think this team is good enough to compete and some hard decisions have to be made with some veteran players so the squad can get younger, bigger and faster in order to compete. John, you should expect some changes". I don't think any more needs to be shared and do we actually know Bowman didn't do that?

If Toews asks what players Bowman is thinking about moving, I don't think he deserves that specific info. Just like I don't think Toews or the other veterans should have input into what players or coaches should be moved out.

It is fairly well known that Auston Mathews pretty much got 'inflexible' Mike Babcock fired in Toronto. He basically did the dirty work for the rookie GM who wanted a different coach anyway. How has that integrated line of communication worked out for the better?

How about Lou Lamoriello who doesnt tolerate unshaven players and doesn't share any of what he is thinking with anybody. Uncle Lou seems to have survived in the league applying his 1960's mindset.

My point - players play, coaches coach, managers manage and ultimately they all report to the owner who is in it to turn a buck. Rocky isn't turning a buck right now so upheaval shouldn't be a surprise.
- RickJ

Rick quoted me so I will respond: I agree with much of what you said in your first three paragraphs - Stan (and other GMs) should be informing core players about the evaluation of the talent (in a macro sense) and the coming direction of the team. They certainly shouldn’t disclose determinations about individual players.

Although it wouldn’t be terrible to ask - at the EOS exit interviews - for Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford for their opinion of the direction the team should be taking - without committing to act on those opinions. Players aren’t stupid, certainly about hockey things - some good suggestions or confirmations could come from them.