Agreed. This team was not the same team after the stoppage that they were before it. For whatever reason. The team that played before the stoppage gives the Isles all that they could handle. Add in improved play from younger players and some bounce back from vets and they're a good team. Please, no long term deals to players like Hoffman or Hall that aren't worth it. Stay patient. Make smart trades if you can but lets not go back to the way it was in the Holmgren years with going for it year after year. Doesn't work.
- MJL

Didn't they lose every game against the Islanders in the regular season?

Agreed. This team was not the same team after the stoppage that they were before it. For whatever reason. The team that played before the stoppage gives the Isles all that they could handle. Add in improved play from younger players and some bounce back from vets and they're a good team. Please, no long term deals to players like Hoffman or Hall that aren't worth it. Stay patient. Make smart trades if you can but lets not go back to the way it was in the Holmgren years with going for it year after year. Doesn't work.
- MJL

In a league that makes GMs age quickly, it's very difficult for them to see the sands slipping by and do nothing.
I mean why are they being paid? It's not just to sit on their thrones.
Finding the GM who panics is the only time the trades get lopsided.
So we get the five year plans and they cling to the steering wheel hoping to dodge the worst potholes. If they get too rigid, ala Hextall, when they fail to respond to the clamor of the media, fans and execs, they can take the tumble too.

Being a GM is sort of a living hell.

Didn't they lose every game against the Islanders in the regular season?
- Dkos

Yes, but the games were before we really started gelling if I remember correctly. We had a game in the near future vs them right before the season paused too

Yeah, people talk like they're a bloodletting away from winning it all, when the issues that tripped them up (inexperience, systematic break downs and inconsistency) are team issues, not individual ones.

Tampa could have done some splashy poop after last season's PO debacle. Ditto the Islanders. They didn't and they're both in the Conference Finals.
- Tomahawk

tampa and the isles both made excellent trade deadline moves. The flyers didnt (which is fine for now) Tampa also made nice low cost moves in Shattenkirk and Bogosian.

Comparing Tampa's loss last year to the flyers is misguided imo. Tampa clearly had the more talented team and huge moves were not justified to me.

Moving Jake is not the move for the Flyers. JVR can be more easily replaced as well as Ghost. JVR doesn’t really fit well as of now. JVR will be harder to move but that is the contract to move. Ghost will be easy to move. His contract is friendly and he has some skills that some teams will covet.

Jake is a big offensive puck controlling machine. I’m not crazy about his contract but there would be significant drop off in my mind. Just my view anyways

Moving Jake is not the move for the Flyers. JVR can be more easily replaced as well as Ghost. JVR doesn’t really fit well as of now. JVR will be harder to move but that is the contract to move. Ghost will be easy to move. His contract is friendly and he has some skills that some teams will covet.

Jake is a big offensive puck controlling machine. I’m not crazy about his contract but there would be significant drop off in my mind. Just my view anyways
- peesinwind

Sometimes trading individual talent makes the team better.

Yes, but the games were before we really started gelling if I remember correctly. We had a game in the near future vs them right before the season paused too
- arichardson22

Just sayin. They weren't great against the Islanders before the break either. They lost two out of three to the Habs in the regular season too. I'm not looking for a bloodletting after their lousy playoff showing, but I'm also not afraid of the Flyers making some moves if they find something that improves the team. I have more confidence in the current administration than in those of the previous few.

He's hit 20+ goal mark six times in his career, including three of the last four seasons. I wouldn't call that "struggling" to get to 20 even if he often finishes with exactly 20.

He's always been more of a playmaking winger than a goal-scorer, anyway, and he's hit 40+ assists in seven straight seasons (including seasons with 59 and 65 assists). That's quite impressive.

Over the last seven seasons, he is 17th among all NHL forwards in total points and sixth in assists. His 0.85 points per game ranks right in the same territory as Vladimir Tarasenko (0.87), Mathew Barzal (0.88), Phil Kessel (0.86), is identical to Patrice Bergeron, Sebastian Aho and Aleksander Barkov, and slightly higher than Jonathan Huberdeau (0.83), Joe Pavelski (0.83), Evgeni Kuznetov (0.81), Patrik Laine (0.81), Kyle Connor (0.81) and other notables.

Voracek has only missed four games over the last four seasons (two of which were due to a suspension). Over the last eight years, he's only missed a combined 13 games, and dressed in every game of six of those seasons.

While he'll never be known as a two-way player, during the regular season this year, Voracek worked harder on his two-way play than I've ever seen him do, and he had a very good season overall in that regard. It did suck that he was largely responsible for the 2nd goal in Game 7 of the Islanders game, but his overall body of two-way work this year was some of his best as a Flyer.

There are times when Voracek can be a frustrating player, including to Vigneault. He does make some careless plays. I think we'd all like to more often see him in that "I'm taking this puck to the slot/net and no one is gonna stop me" mode that he gets in sometimes. But to say the consistency of his overall production hasn't been impressive is to not compare his around the league. Only if you are looking for superstar-level production is it in any way lacking.

Voracek is a big, strong forward who can also skate, handle the puck on entries and thread the needle. He's never been a pure goal-scorer, going all the way back to junior hockey, but he'll get his 20 most years.

I'm not automatically opposed to trading him. Just realize that he's NOT an easy player to replace or upgrade upon.
- bmeltzer

This

Didn't they lose every game against the Islanders in the regular season?
- Dkos

agree but the issues were the same against the Habs

Sometimes trading individual talent makes the team better.
- login

I can agree with this. But Jake is a good player. Maybe the cap hit is tough to swallow but he can bring a lot. Not sure he will easily be replaced.

Hoffman is an empty stat pusher. The people suggesting hes a game changer are flat out wrong. Watch these players actually play vs looking up a stat sheet. Hoffman will be over paid to make a team worse.

Kessel is as lazy as jvr. In the end your trading largely similar players for each other.

Eichel - sure if it was do able yeah why wouldn't you. Its likely not do able.

I'd love a real hockey trade from somewhere this off season. But I dont see it. And I dont see a huge overhaul being possible. Trading ghost would give us enough space to re sign our rfa and elliot. We don't have much after thst to get any more than depth signings. Everyone is tight against it. The only realistic trades are two people needing change of scenery. But then you are getting a flawed player ie: johny hockey, Kessel, nylander

In a league that makes GMs age quickly, it's very difficult for them to see the sands slipping by and do nothing.
I mean why are they being paid? It's not just to sit on their thrones.
Finding the GM who panics is the only time the trades get lopsided.
So we get the five year plans and they cling to the steering wheel hoping to dodge the worst potholes. If they get too rigid, ala Hextall, when they fail to respond to the clamor of the media, fans and execs, they can take the tumble too.

Being a GM is sort of a living hell.
- Pompous

Need to have the backing of management. So Fletcher comes in and makes some moves. To be clear, I'm not blaming Fletcher. He had a mandate and under that mandate, I think he did pretty good. The Niskanen trade was a very smart move. Hayes was a clear need at center and played well and really helped. Even if there is the potential to have back end of the deal become troublesome. The Braun deal I did not like. Don't like taking on the dead money for a player of that level. However, when all is said and done, how far did the team really advance? They were more fun to watch and certainly better. The playoff experience for young players will surely be beneficial. In the end, we're still basically in the same place. Waiting for the young players to develop. Can't rush that. Don't tie up the cap you spent how many years improving. Wait until you get close and then see what you need and supplement. Then you don't wind up with high dollar pieces that you wont need in the future such as JVR. Instead you can use that space for a true need and upgrade.

I can agree with this. But Jake is a good player. Maybe the cap hit is tough to swallow but he can bring a lot. Not sure he will easily be replaced.
- peesinwind

Yes he is good. Not saying otherwise. Sometimes it is just time to move on. Bobby Abreau syndrome.

Need to have the backing of management. So Fletcher comes in and makes some moves. To be clear, I'm not blaming Fletcher. He had a mandate and under that mandate, I think he did pretty good. The Niskanen trade was a very smart move. Hayes was a clear need at center and played well and really helped. Even if there is the potential to have back end of the deal become troublesome. The Braun deal I did not like. Don't like taking on the dead money for a player of that level. However, when all is said and done, how far did the team really advance? They were more fun to watch and certainly better. The playoff experience for young players will surely be beneficial. In the end, we're still basically in the same place. Waiting for the young players to develop. Can't rush that. Don't tie up the cap you spent how many years improving. Wait until you get close and then see what you need and supplement. Then you don't wind up with high dollar pieces that you wont need in the future such as JVR. Instead you can use that space for a true need and upgrade.
- MJL

Do you think Braun had a positive influence on the young players not just on the ice? Do you think his acquisition helped them ease into their role a little more ? Do you think it allowed Myers to start in the AHL instead of being rushed?

Style of play. Ovie paid to score. Backstrom to set him up.

If this is you reasoning. Marner who puts up slightly better numbers is making over 10 mil. Highest goal total was 26. But he assists or sets up Matthews.
- Peter Richards

Who is Voracek setting up and is he setting up players to the same level as the playmakers you’ve named? Mitch Marner is a lot younger than Jake and above a point average player right now.

That was part of the reason they got the haul they did for Carter and Richards, because they were in their mid-20s and in their primes. Moving Voracek at 31 making over 8 mil a season for the next 4 seasons, I can't imagine the Flyers getting a return that doesn't set them back.
- Ftown19125

So play out of contract as he flew less and less productive?

Yes he is good. Not saying otherwise. Sometimes it is just time to move on. Bobby Abreau syndrome.
- login

His is not an issue in the locker room and has pretty good respect from his teammates. Adds to the offensive. Was not terrible on the d side this year.

I don’t see much advantage of getting rid of him just for cap space.

I think the team as it stands is pretty freaking deep. A few tweaks here and there. I like Ghost for what he is but he hasn’t fit well on this team. JVR has a pretty good over all season but not sure he fits well as he is getting pushed down towards the 4th line more and more (not saying that is where he is but not a top six type player IMO)

I keep Jake. Don’t think he is an issue. Cut corners elsewhere.

We need to re-sign Stewart

Just trying to start a conversation

Need to have the backing of management. So Fletcher comes in and makes some moves. To be clear, I'm not blaming Fletcher. He had a mandate and under that mandate, I think he did pretty good. The Niskanen trade was a very smart move. Hayes was a clear need at center and played well and really helped. Even if there is the potential to have back end of the deal become troublesome. The Braun deal I did not like. Don't like taking on the dead money for a player of that level. However, when all is said and done, how far did the team really advance? They were more fun to watch and certainly better. The playoff experience for young players will surely be beneficial. In the end, we're still basically in the same place. Waiting for the young players to develop. Can't rush that. Don't tie up the cap you spent how many years improving. Wait until you get close and then see what you need and supplement. Then you don't wind up with high dollar pieces that you wont need in the future such as JVR. Instead you can use that space for a true need and upgrade.
- MJL

I think the Flyers are pretty close to having that squad. They had a chance at it this year. They were considered by many to have a shot. In the end they didn’t climb high enough.

I like your basic assessments of some of the contracts/trades that Fletcher brought in. I also like what your saying about not getting in contract/cap hell. They will have young talent to sign and develop.

I’m hoping they sign Nolan P. To a cheap deal and he responds to have a good year next year. That would be a huge piece to this teams success.

I’m hoping they sign Nolan P. To a cheap deal and he responds to have a good year next year. That would be a huge piece to this teams success.
- peesinwind

Patrick has zero leverage. They can be cold hearted and just qualify him on a one year deal. I don't know why either side would want more than a one year deal at this point.

So play out of contract as he flew less and less productive?
- SuperSchennBros

Points wise he was less productive, but I thought he was much better backchecking this season than he has been in seasons past. Outside of Hayes, I thought he was probably the Flyers best forward in the playoffs too, which I guess isn't saying much. I just think you don't get back nearly what he brings if you trade him.

At this point I’m pretty indifferent to the G/Voracek core moving forward. If they want G to play out his contract fine. But this core has won two playoff rounds in the last eight years and they aren’t getting any younger (and definitely don’t look like any sort of impact players come playoff time). If there’s an opportunity to move Jake before his contract turns into a real issue then I’m jumping on it.

Over the last seven seasons, he is 17th among all NHL forwards in total points and sixth in assists. His 0.85 points per game ranks right in the same territory as Vladimir Tarasenko (0.87), Mathew Barzal (0.88), Phil Kessel (0.86), is identical to Patrice Bergeron, Sebastian Aho and Aleksander Barkov, and slightly higher than Jonathan Huberdeau (0.83), Joe Pavelski (0.83), Evgeni Kuznetov (0.81), Patrik Laine (0.81), Kyle Connor (0.81) and other notables.

- bmeltzer

While I do understand the central point of your post, Bill, that Voracek is a good player, the comparison list of players you posted is misleading, because it suggests he belong with that group in overall value.

Guys like Aho are primary examples of the failure of the Flyers to hit beyond the first round. Aho was drafted in the second. In his first two seasons, he played all over: 1st line and 2nd, center, LW and RW (on both lines). His supporting cast were guys like Skinner and Teravainen as opposed to Giroux, Couturier, Konecny and Schenn for Voracek. In his first two seasons he scored 49 and 65 points. Since then (and after Svechnikov arrived), he is a ppg player, including in playoffs.


Now look at Barzal. In his very first season, he was over a ppg player. Then, Tavares left, Trotz came and his numbers dropped to 60 point rage. He rebounded again this year, his 2nd as 1C. Take away the middle transitional season and he has 145 points in 150 games.

As I am sure you aware, Laine has been extremely unhappy with his line-mates. He gets to play with all-star studs like Bryan Little and Andrew Copp as his centers, not Scheifele. Essentially 3rd liners. That surely contributes to his lower point %. Besides, his value is a sniper and he is still tied with Tavares as 7th in the league in goals over his 4 years.

Take Barkov. Throw away his first two seasons, and he has 347 points in 354 games.


I could go and point out some things with Tarasenko and Huberdeau in particular, but the point is this. You chose a time period and a group of players: but some of those players were exceptional earlier (Kessel, Bergeron) and are on their way down and Voracek was never in their company when they were up. And for several of the others, they did not even play in that span and their numbers are currently on a trend that far exceeds Voracek's (the ones mentioned above). And some have been significantly hampered by their supporting cast and their value is elsewhere than ppg.

In mine and most estimations that I read, Voracek, on merit today, is an above average RW but not top 10. Maybe 11-14 range, and as such, far closer to average than elite (this is true for every single one of our forwards, including Couturier as 1C). I think the proper comparison in current form for Voracek would be with someone like Radulov. The latter will have 5-10 less points on average but will score 5-7 more goals.

I was just dropping by here and saw this list, and right off the bat, it seemed odd, since I did watch some of the other players play, so I did some digging.

On a more general level, after the sustained stint of being 'just another club' that is the Flyers history of this millennium, I think there is a tendency to seek solace in the comfort of false reassurance (things are not that bad after all). So often have we been in this position, that a Stockholm Syndrome has set in.

Part of that is the irrational inflation of the estimation of our own players, an emotion that provides the comfort of a warm blanket in the present, but only serves to perpetuate our sustained tryst with deep mediocrity that endless allusions to the glorious past of the club do nothing to diminish. There are some here who do not understand the sort of difficult choices that excellence demands, there are others who conflate justly harsh criticism with disloyalty and negativity and condescension, and there are still others who are simply misguided in their belief that putting blinkers on alters the nature of reality.

They are who they are, but for the rest, perhaps we should take a clearer look at our current situation.

Again, just passing through here, saw this rare long post by you and could not resist. Out again and apologies for the interruption.

We need to re-sign Stewart

Just trying to start a conversation
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Now that's the bias for action I'm talking about!!

While I do understand the central point of your post, Bill, that Voracek is a good player, the comparison list of players you posted is misleading, because it suggests he belong with that group in overall value.


- PT21

No it doesn't suggest that. It suggests that his point output is very similar to all of those players.

Guys like Aho are primary examples of the failure of the Flyers to hit beyond the first round. Aho was drafted in the second. In his first two seasons, he played all over: 1st line and 2nd, center, LW and RW (on both lines). His supporting cast were guys like Skinner and Teravainen as opposed to Giroux, Couturier, Konecny and Schenn for Voracek. In his first two seasons he scored 49 and 65 points. Since then (and after Svechnikov arrived), he is a ppg player, including in playoffs.


Now look at Barzal. In his very first season, he was over a ppg player. Then, Tavares left, Trotz came and his numbers dropped to 60 point rage. He rebounded again this year, his 2nd as 1C. Take away the middle transitional season and he has 145 points in 150 games.


- PT21

How many players have the Canes hit on beyond the first round? Right now the Flyers are looking at Hart and the possibility of becoming a star in the league. He was not drafted in the first round. Lindblom was not drafted in the first round. Neither was Myers.

As I am sure you aware, Laine has been extremely unhappy with his line-mates. He gets to play with all-star studs like Bryan Little and Andrew Copp as his centers, not Scheifele. Essentially 3rd liners. That surely contributes to his lower point %. Besides, his value is a sniper and he is still tied with Tavares as 7th in the league in goals over his 4 years.

Take Barkov. Throw away his first two seasons, and he has 347 points in 354 games.


I could go and point out some things with Tarasenko and Huberdeau in particular, but the point is this. You chose a time period and a group of players: but some of those players were exceptional earlier (Kessel, Bergeron) and are on their way down and Voracek was never in their company when they were up. And for several of the others, they did not even play in that span and their numbers are currently on a trend that far exceeds Voracek's (the ones mentioned above). And some have been significantly hampered by their supporting cast and their value is elsewhere than ppg.

In mine and most estimations that I read, Voracek, on merit today, is an above average RW but not top 10. Maybe 11-14 range, and as such, far closer to average than elite (this is true for every single one of our forwards, including Couturier as 1C). I think the proper comparison in current form for Voracek would be with someone like Radulov. The latter will have 5-10 less points on average but will score 5-7 more goals.

I was just dropping by here and saw this list, and right off the bat, it seemed odd, since I did watch some of the other players play, so I did some digging.


- PT21

Are there any factors to consider with Voracek and who he has played with at times? The quality of the team he has played on or are extenuating circumstances only for non Flyers?

On a more general level, after the sustained stint of being 'just another club' that is the Flyers history of this millennium, I think there is a tendency to seek solace in the comfort of false reassurance (things are not that bad after all). So often have we been in this position, that a Stockholm Syndrome has set in.

Part of that is the irrational inflation of the estimation of our own players, an emotion that provides the comfort of a warm blanket in the present, but only serves to perpetuate our sustained tryst with deep mediocrity that endless allusions to the glorious past of the club do nothing to diminish. There are some here who do not understand the sort of difficult choices that excellence demands, there are others who conflate justly harsh criticism with disloyalty and negativity and condescension, and there are still others who are simply misguided in their belief that putting blinkers on alters the nature of reality.

They are who they are, but for the rest, perhaps we should take a clearer look at our current situation.

Again, just passing through here, saw this rare long post by you and could not resist. Out again and apologies for the interruption.
- PT21

That's exactly what it was, an interruption. It's just a bunch of babble. Thank God you're back to judge others and give us your diagnosis of the psyche of Flyers fans.

On a fnishing note, who didn't know that you were full of it about leaving Hockeybuzz. You were just passing by!

Only PT21 can turn differing opinions on an NHL team into Stockholm syndrome. The poster boy for the indictment of the higher education system.