Pretty incredible how he just obliterated his own position on a subject he wasted hours debating. Can’t make this stuff up.
- Cptmjl

If it walks like a duck...…...

If it walks like a duck...…...
- MJL

It is amusing watching posters on hockeybuzz feign knowledge on a subject and then diminish their own point inadvertently without even knowing it.

It is amusing watching posters on hockeybuzz feign knowledge on a subject and then diminish their own point inadvertently without even knowing it.
- Cptmjl

Like Jimmy Tanner?

Like Jimmy Tanner?
- gergeswillems

Exactly like Jimmy Tanner.

It is amusing watching right-wingers on hockeybuzz feign knowledge on a subject and then diminish their own point inadvertently without even knowing it.

Fixed it for you.

Fixed it for you.
- GalacticStone

I thought I read all of the discussion prior to yours, but I might have misunderstood. Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that being specific is very important here. "Systematic" doesn't aptly describe anything. You say that you want to get to the root of the problem (as do I), but saying that the "system" is the problem does not describe a target. It is too nebulous to actually get anything done.

Regarding your example, not to be rude, but I think it s asinine. If you get good grades at a "lower tier" school and go up against someone who got worse grades at an upper tier one, you certainly will make more money, because you will get the job and they won't (maybe engineering was not the best example?). I've got experience here as I've been a chemist for over 20 years. I've been paid more than someone with more experience and less than people with less experience. I've found a few things that affect pay:
1) Market - how urgent is the company to hire someone.
2) Negotiating skill - my first two jobs I was horrible at negotiating. My last two I talked my way to more vacation and higher salary than all but two others.
3) Employers are interested in making sure you can perform to the level that they need. Especially today, they care less about the institution and more about seeing proof of results. There are obvious exceptions here (especially if in the example you provided, you both have the same grades), but experience and results rule.
- Chunk

Chunk,

The point is if you acknowledge that the system doesn't really work for a certain group of people, (regardless whether you believe it is set up this way purposely or not) Thats where is has to start. Look at this message board, you have loads of people basically saying nothing is wrong! Really? For them maybe but for others its very wrong. You want a specific example ? How about drastically raising the money given to schools in areas where they're having the issues, so they can attract better teachers. How about giving people below the poverty line access to regular check-ups at doctors offices so they can prevent long-term illness and not have to clog emergency rooms for small sickness. How about instead of just giving food stamps they lessen the food stamps but give free produce so they can eat healthier while not needing to think about getting the most calories possible from their foods stamps.

You can't even start to discuss and correct problems because they can't even admit there is one. That's what the protests are about, BLM is screaming there is a problem for them (which they've been saying for years) but nobody is listening. Mr Floyd was the last straw and these protests are forcing it to be front and center. The people not supporting it are the same people who think everything is fine. Yes there are a few doing terrible things with it but there will always be a few bad apples in the bag, but you don't throw out the bag!

As to your point about negotiating skills and higher pay. Congrats, and I agree with you, but, you're one example and the averages say you're way off. Add in the fact that you're probably not black which proves the point even further.

If you're not in their shoes, you have no basis of comparison - none. So just listen, acknowledge it and talk about where the real root of the problem is and fix it together.

Cheers,

Chunk,

The point is if you acknowledge that the system doesn't really work for a certain group of people, (regardless whether you believe it is set up this way purposely or not) Thats where is has to start. Look at this message board, you have loads of people basically saying nothing is wrong! Really? For them maybe but for others its very wrong. You want a specific example ? How about drastically raising the money given to schools in areas where they're having the issues, so they can attract better teachers. How about giving people below the poverty line access to regular check-ups at doctors offices so they can prevent long-term illness and not have to clog emergency rooms for small sickness. How about instead of just giving food stamps they lessen the food stamps but give free produce so they can eat healthier while not needing to think about getting the most calories possible from their foods stamps.

You can't even start to discuss and correct problems because they can't even admit there is one. That's what the protests are about, BLM is screaming there is a problem for them (which they've been saying for years) but nobody is listening. Mr Floyd was the last straw and these protests are forcing it to be front and center. The people not supporting it are the same people who think everything is fine. Yes there are a few doing terrible things with it but there will always be a few bad apples in the bag, but you don't throw out the bag!

As to your point about negotiating skills and higher pay. Congrats, and I agree with you, but, you're one example and the averages say you're way off. Add in the fact that you're probably not black which proves the point even further.

If you're not in their shoes, you have no basis of comparison - none. So just listen, acknowledge it and talk about where the real root of the problem is and fix it together.

Cheers,
- InglewoodJack77

I've been in this thread for most of it. I don't recall anyone saying that there aren't any problems. BLM is responsible for nobody listening to them. We shouldn't listen to them. We should listen to the people who are peacefully protesting issues.

I've been in this thread for most of it. I don't recall anyone saying that there aren't any problems. BLM is responsible for nobody listening to them. We shouldn't listen to them. We should listen to the people who are peacefully protesting issues.
- MJL

No offense, but the peaceful protestors, in most cases, don't even know what they want either. Good for them to protest peacefully, but that doesn't mean they have reasonable requests or demands.

Less politics and more Jokinen GIF's from you, mister.
- Aetherial

No offense, but the peaceful protestors, in most cases, don't even know what they want either. Good for them to protest peacefully, but that doesn't mean they have reasonable requests or demands.
- rrentz

Maybe, maybe not but peaceful protesters deserve to be heard.

Maybe, maybe not but peaceful protesters deserve to be heard.
- MJL

what about the protests that are out after hours when there is a city curfew?


are those protestors above the laws?



serious question

Fixed it for you.
- GalacticStone

Oh look it’s the scientist. Another one who has not a clue about anything they say. The scientist, that was awesome. Hey scientist how’s your day going? Are you doing scientific things?

what about the protests that are out after hours when there is a city curfew?


are those protestors above the laws?



serious question
- homiedclown

How about some funerals being ok and some not? Virus seems to only be transmissible for some funeral attendees not others while also attacking solely conservative protesters and not George Floyd protesters? This is a virus like we’ve never seen.

The fact that this is debatable for some people is mind boggling.

No offense, but the peaceful protestors, in most cases, don't even know what they want either. Good for them to protest peacefully, but that doesn't mean they have reasonable requests or demands.
- rrentz

Protesting is a persuasive process. It is a negotiation. Gandhi, King, Chavez, Conlon: the protests they led, whether massive (Gandhi) or small scale (Conlon), only work when you get a critical mass of people to buy in (and the right people in power to implement the demands). That takes a message that's cohesive and resonates. I think where BLM has missed a lot of people is that there are so many demands so it is difficult to embrace all of it when you don't really understand what you're embracing. Most people can buy into police reforms that seek to reduce incidents of police brutality. Most people will never buy in, however, when embracing BLM means defunding the police. That scares people. Plus, with BLM, you have the racial component. You may be able to overlook that, because you're a reasonable, upstanding guy, but some folks never will.

I've been in this thread for most of it. I don't recall anyone saying that there aren't any problems. BLM is responsible for nobody listening to them. We shouldn't listen to them. We should listen to the people who are peacefully protesting issues.
- MJL

Oh here we go - MJL on here to tell everyone else how it is. Buddy if you want to look at a few bad people and decide that an entire movement is bad, then that's your choice. You are free to choose.
Black people have been screaming about this for decades. Were you listening then? There are hundreds of thousands supporting the BLM movement who peacefully protest, do you support them?
The fact that you know BLM shows its working because per my earlier line, you probaby weren't listening to them before.

For anyone following the Covid 19 argument yesterday, a poster claimed that the reason that H1N1 deaths in 2009 were 1/30th the # of recorded Covid deaths now was because of medical mislabeling because of financial compensation stemming from increased government compensation if the hospital claimed a Covid case. He claimed that the enhanced lockdown etc. now was because of political reasons that did not have a basis in medical science.

The issue of hospital over-billing is rampant in this country and well-known.

But it is one thing to over-bill for a procedure medically justified. Its quite another to change the medical procedures themselves to those that are specific to Covid.

If a patient comes in for condition X, there is a protocol that is followed. Individual variations will be there, but by and large, looking at the tests and procedures themselves over a large # of days at a hospital, an outside medical professional will be able to make a very good guess what the underlying condition/s was.

To bring about a deception of this sort would be tremendously hazardous. First, by definition, the patient would be treated for a disease different than reality. At best, those tests would be unnecessary. There would be the issue of insurance fraud, Medicare/Medicaid fraud, the social isolation imposed on next of kin, the emotional infringement of burial restrictions for loved ones, the political ramifications of classifying a death as Covid when not, the medical malpractice potential against doctors who must sign off on procedures that are different from those medically necessary, and so on.

Now consider the scale of this deception that would need to be waged, in hospital and hospital, all across the country, that would justify changing statistics by this order of magnitude.

It would be equivalent to saying that say, a big market team like Toronto gets manufactured calls in their favor across arenas, across referees, by a factor of say, 30 to 1. In other words, roughly 99% of the calls involving Toronto are fake.

I will spare the original poster a repeat of his embarrassing attempts to justify this. Obviously, no such cuckoo conspiracy exists. The death rate from confirmed Covid cases are actually lower in the US than in many parts of the comparable world.

Rather what is revealing about such issues is the degree to which he is willing to believe something that defies the most rudimentary of common sense, in a field that is apparently close to what he has worked in all his life.

Another poster suggested that deaths are being mis-classified because the patient did actually have Covid (there is thankfully no claimed conspiracy in the testing itself), but because patients are dying of natural causes and the cause of their death is being recorded as Covid.

The problem with this theory is this: if a patient gets a heart attack, and has covid, the # of deaths from heart attack goes down by 1. The # of deaths by Covid goes up by 1. The total # of deaths should be unaffected. Going across the population, the total # of deaths should be largely the same.

Except that total deaths in the US this year have jumped by a huge #, even though a leading causes of death (fatal traffic accidents) has plummeted because of lower traffic. If a person's death is being mis-classified from natural causes to Covid, how come the total # of deaths rose by so much?

The answer of course is that with the testing delays, the fact that hospitals were asking patients to stay at home unless critically ill, the fact that symptoms in many ways mimic those of the flu (without testing), has caused many people to die of Covid at home, but without such correct classification. Researchers believe that Covid deaths are being undercounted by as many as 50,000 in the US. This would make Covid not 30 times as deadly as H1N1, but 40 times as deadly.

The references I posted were from JAMA, one of the very top medical journals in the world. One of the posters called this a medical source for dummies.

One of the posters then posted a link to a Pennsylvania state level correction of 200 deaths originally classified as Covid then being labeled not so.

In any data collecting enterprise, there are always revisions and corrections. Unemployment rates and GDP growth rates are constantly revised. This has nothing to do with conspiracies - it is simply more information that comes out.

The issue obviously is the scale of the revision. In PA today, there were about 7300 deaths. Even if the correction lowered it from 7500 by the 200 revision, that would be <0.3% change. It would be irrelevant both in purpose and in magnitude to a change of 3000%, claimed as a conspiracy, which is what the discussion was about.

The poster, btw, also wished me goodnight at 7.16 AM.

The posters' comments, their beliefs in outlandish conspiracy theories, their disparaging of top medical journals as those for dummies, is largely irrelevant if it was confined to personal arguments.

But it is part of a national trend. To anyone who has even glanced at the news, the US has done spectacularly badly in managing the Covid crisis. The crisis hit us months after China, Italy and Spain. We had a horrendous first few weeks.

But even more striking was the second resurgence, which killed tens of thousands. No country has had anything remotely like this second rise experience, not Italy, Spain, UK, Germany or France. Not China.

In Canada yesterday there were 4 Covid deaths. In the US, there were 1265.
The numbers are so stark they are beyond dispute.


https://www.washingtonpos...us-trump-voters-disagree/

Except that a huge majority of Trump supporters believe that the US is doing just as well or better than other countries.

In fact, new polling exposes a striking version of this dynamic: While Americans increasingly believe that the United States is handling the novel coronavirus worse than most other countries, pluralities of Trump voters and Republicans think the United States is handling it better than most other countries are.

The toplines of the new HuffPost/YouGov poll are as follows, per Ariel Edwards-Levy:

A 46% plurality of the public now says the U.S. is handling the outbreak worse than other countries, with 24% saying it’s handling the outbreak as well as other countries and just 19% saying it’s doing better than most.

The results reflect a continuing decline in confidence over the course of this year. A March poll found that just 28% of Americans thought the U.S. was handling the outbreak worse than other countries, while a May survey put that figure at 36%.



The arguments of the original posters regarding inflated Covid deaths etc. are not anomalous. They are representative of a section of our populace that simply put, chooses to believe personal fantasy over empirical fact.

An American President once famously said: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country.

To all my American friends out there, ask yourself the question: do you consider it a viable, tenable state of affairs that a country that put a man on the moon, that has the best hospitals and universities, that provided the world the digital revolution, be represented by such forces?

what about the protests that are out after hours when there is a city curfew?


are those protestors above the laws?



serious question
- homiedclown

Any protest that is violating the law or any ordinances is not peaceful.

Oh look it’s the scientist. Another one who has not a clue about anything they say. The scientist, that was awesome. Hey scientist how’s your day going? Are you doing scientific things?
- Cptmjl

don't you worship an orange skinned dippoop who never has a clue about what he's saying...............why is it okay for your messiah to be completely clueless and lost, but not anyone else?

The posters' comments, their beliefs in outlandish conspiracy theories, their disparaging of top medical journals as those for dummies, is largely irrelevant if it was confined to personal arguments.

But it is part of a national trend. To anyone who has even glanced at the news, the US has done spectacularly badly in managing the Covid crisis. The crisis hit us months after China, Italy and Spain. We had a horrendous first few weeks.

But even more striking was the second resurgence, which killed tens of thousands. No country has had anything remotely like this second rise experience, not Italy, Spain, UK, Germany or France. Not China.

In Canada yesterday there were 4 Covid deaths. In the US, there were 1265.
The numbers are so stark they are beyond dispute.


https://www.washingtonpos...us-trump-voters-disagree/

Except that a huge majority of Trump supporters believe that the US is doing just as well or better than other countries.

In fact, new polling exposes a striking version of this dynamic: While Americans increasingly believe that the United States is handling the novel coronavirus worse than most other countries, pluralities of Trump voters and Republicans think the United States is handling it better than most other countries are.

The toplines of the new HuffPost/YouGov poll are as follows, per Ariel Edwards-Levy:

A 46% plurality of the public now says the U.S. is handling the outbreak worse than other countries, with 24% saying it’s handling the outbreak as well as other countries and just 19% saying it’s doing better than most.

The results reflect a continuing decline in confidence over the course of this year. A March poll found that just 28% of Americans thought the U.S. was handling the outbreak worse than other countries, while a May survey put that figure at 36%.



The arguments of the original posters regarding inflated Covid deaths etc. are not anomalous. They are representative of a section of our populace that simply put, chooses to believe personal fantasy over empirical fact.

An American President once famously said: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country.

To all my American friends out there, ask yourself the question: do you consider it a viable, tenable state of affairs that a country that put a man on the moon, that has the best hospitals and universities, that provided the world the digital revolution, be represented by such forces?
- PT21

This is funny and embarrassing all at once with you of course being the punchline. Please go on demonstrating you’re a fraud. How did your lung scan go? Are you going to recommend that avenue of diagnosis for family and friends? Cheers.

don't you worship an orange skinned dippoop who never has a clue about what he's saying...............why is it okay for your messiah to be completely clueless and lost, but not anyone else?
- sensarmy_11

I don’t worship anyone that’s really quite an assumption on your part. That’s like me saying, “don’t you embrace burning other peoples property and committing violent acts to get your warped message across?” or is that not an assumption on my part?

The posters' comments, their beliefs in outlandish conspiracy theories, their disparaging of top medical journals as those for dummies, is largely irrelevant if it was confined to personal arguments.

But it is part of a national trend. To anyone who has even glanced at the news, the US has done spectacularly badly in managing the Covid crisis. The crisis hit us months after China, Italy and Spain. We had a horrendous first few weeks.

But even more striking was the second resurgence, which killed tens of thousands. No country has had anything remotely like this second rise experience, not Italy, Spain, UK, Germany or France. Not China.

In Canada yesterday there were 4 Covid deaths. In the US, there were 1265.
The numbers are so stark they are beyond dispute.


https://www.washingtonpos...us-trump-voters-disagree/

Except that a huge majority of Trump supporters believe that the US is doing just as well or better than other countries.

In fact, new polling exposes a striking version of this dynamic: While Americans increasingly believe that the United States is handling the novel coronavirus worse than most other countries, pluralities of Trump voters and Republicans think the United States is handling it better than most other countries are.

The toplines of the new HuffPost/YouGov poll are as follows, per Ariel Edwards-Levy:

A 46% plurality of the public now says the U.S. is handling the outbreak worse than other countries, with 24% saying it’s handling the outbreak as well as other countries and just 19% saying it’s doing better than most.

The results reflect a continuing decline in confidence over the course of this year. A March poll found that just 28% of Americans thought the U.S. was handling the outbreak worse than other countries, while a May survey put that figure at 36%.



The arguments of the original posters regarding inflated Covid deaths etc. are not anomalous. They are representative of a section of our populace that simply put, chooses to believe personal fantasy over empirical fact.

An American President once famously said: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country.

To all my American friends out there, ask yourself the question: do you consider it a viable, tenable state of affairs that a country that put a man on the moon, that has the best hospitals and universities, that provided the world the digital revolution, be represented by such forces?
- PT21

This is incredible. Did you get your “lung scan” nuclear med test to clear yourself of covid 19? How did those radioisotopes feel going through the IV? Please tell us more. Thank you and Cheers.