Also, contrary to what someone else said earlier, he's played with better players throughout his career, too.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Why do you say that? In the early part of his career, when Richards, Briere Carter were around, Giroux did not play in the top 2 lines. Then they left, Jagr came and went (and he was a good possession player but far from the Jags of old) and we struggled to find a top LW for ever and ever. And Voracek is a very good player but he is almost pathologically averse to shooting the puck.

Iirc, JT played first line almost right from the start. He had Moulson, Vanek (in the rare times Vanek was healthy), Okposo, Anders Lee. That first line always scored a lot of goals. And now, he is playing with Marner in his prime, right?

Dirtiest shootout goal ever.https://youtu.be/HQcAHmyrlXI

Giroux!
How the Rangers passed on this guy I have no idea. I remember Pierre flipping out when they did. He named every school he attended since kindergarten and his favorite ice cream
- Blueshirts16

Mcllrath over Fowler..

Man it would have looked good for the Blueshirts to have both those guys playing on Broadway...

Dirtiest shootout goal ever.https://youtu.be/HQcAHmyrlXI
- flyeredup85

I don't know about EVER, but that's definitely up there. Just so silky.

Mcllrath over Fowler..

Man it would have looked good for the Blueshirts to have both those guys playing on Broadway...
- dozerD10

You forgot Tarasenko.

Nash-Tavares-Tarasenko.

Not too bad.

You forgot Tarasenko.

Nash-Tavares-Tarasenko.

Not too bad.
- PT21

Man alive were those some bad Ranger drafts.

Or it could lead to middle tier guys being paid like lower tier guys. Teams have different philosophies though. Leafs will pay its Stars and fill the rest of the roster with prospects on entry level contracts. Like Robertson for example. Or Russian free agents like Mikhayev. While the Blues put more value in the middle tier guys like ROR and Schwartz.

There's no one set recipe for cap management. What works one year for a team may not work the next year for a different team. Drafting and developing is the one thing any successful team needs to do. Back in 05/06 when the Cap was 39 mil it was believed stars would make less but they still got paid. The introduction of the Long term back diving, cap circumventing contracts.

It was also said the middle of the road guys wouldn't get paid but they did. GM's never became any smarter on UFA day. Hello Milan Lucic. So what gives? A player is worth what one team is willing to pay him on the open market.

Fans rip the Leafs for paying their stars and it reminds me of way back when the Red Wings locked up their Stars for big money. What are they supposed to do? Lose them for nothing? Let them walk so another team can pay Marner 11 mil a year? You can fairly say the Leafs haven't won anything. Yet. But alot of teams can say that. Did they overpay? Sure they did. But fans always selectively justify their teams contracts. If it's my team then it's a steal. If it's your team then it's a rip off.

The Leafs weren't planning for Covid to happen and Dubas will have to adapt. Same as every other GM. But I won't hold it against Dubas for paying his stars because most teams do. Do they have too much invested at forward? Probably.

But I'd rather build around stars like McDavid and Draisaitl than a bunch of overpaid 3rd liners. I'd rather have Stars than pretend I have Stars. It's like back in 2009 when Marian Hossa was a UFA and Red Wings fans asked me..."Would you rather have Marian Hossa or Samuelsson, Hudler and Kopecky?" I said I'd rather re-sign Hossa because I can't replace him. I can replace those other 3. Holland felt otherwise and it was the beginning of the end for the Red Wings.

In the end you get what you pay for. It's still about bang for the buck and making sure you're not allocating valuable cap space foolishly.
- gergeswillems

I agree with the stars over depth metric. In the last decade, I think of Pens, Chicago, Kings, Caps - all had multiple key players in the top 5 of their positions in cup winning years. St. Louis last year was arguably the anomaly.

But I was thinking of not of Hossa around the the time you mentioned, who was a flat-out two way stud on both ends of the ice then, but someone definitely on the decline on a team against the cap with some upcoming stars they need to sign, someone with a heavy contract but not that many years left, vet player who might anchor a starting franchise. Could not come up with too many guys of the top of my head though and cant be bothered to check (I thought of someone like Toews, but he has a NMC. Anyway, it would probably be too insulting to not protect a Captain who has resuscitated a franchise in the doldrums, and is known for his work ethic and leadership skills. But someone like that)

G, and it's not even close!


Better leader, better at the dot, better 2-way game, more offensively and is proven in the playoffs + is the grittier player of the 2 despite being significantly smaller than his counterpart

Why do you say that? In the early part of his career, when Richards, Briere Carter were around, Giroux did not play in the top 2 lines. Then they left, Jagr came and went (and he was a good possession player but far from the Jags of old) and we struggled to find a top LW for ever and ever. And Voracek is a very good player but he is almost pathologically averse to shooting the puck.

Iirc, JT played first line almost right from the start. He had Moulson, Vanek (in the rare times Vanek was healthy), Okposo, Anders Lee. That first line always scored a lot of goals. And now, he is playing with Marner in his prime, right?
- PT21

First bolded- Because Marner last season and Nylander this season are the first actual good players Snakevares has played with.

Second bolded- Those guys aren't good. They scored because it was a one man show. Look at their numbers without Snakevares (granted Vanek was a good player for years but mostly before he got there).

First bolded- Because Marner last season and Nylander this season are the first actual good players Snakevares has played with.

Second bolded- Those guys aren't good. They scored because it was a one man show. Look at their numbers without Snakevares (granted Vanek was a good player for years but mostly before he got there).
- GreatGigInTheSky

Then he is a magician, who can bring out 40 goal seasons from hacks and almost ppg from other hacks. I would argue that sometimes, lines just click, and unless it is #87 or #97 centering them, it is as much the collective credit of everyone as it is the star's dues.

Anders Lee has scored 20+ goals each season after JT left, once almost 30. I guess you will say that this was due to Barzal now. Josh Bailey made all star playing with Tavares. Vanek was hardly a hack either. Okposo scored 20 goals a season on average last 5 years with JT.

Giroux played in his early years with the likes of Aaron Asham as his linemate. For much of the recent years, he had Schenn/Raffl/Voracek on LW and Simmer/Voracek on the right. Schenn was deeply underwhelming and would disappear for games at a stretch. Simmer was a great heart and soul guy and great in the crease on the pp but not very good 5-on-5. Voracek rarely shoots. Our first line would get routinely exposed in playoffs.

He has had Couturier centering him and the emergence of Konecny for several stretches on RW past couple of years, that washes out with Nylander/Marner (thought Marner was still on his wing btw)

Giroux.

Its JT hands down although Giroux is an excellent player

Then he is a magician, who can bring out 40 goal seasons from hacks and almost ppg from other hacks. I would argue that sometimes, lines just click, and unless it is #87 or #97 centering them, it is as much the collective credit of everyone as it is the star's dues.

Anders Lee has scored 20+ goals each season after JT left, once almost 30. I guess you will say that this was due to Barzal now. Josh Bailey made all star playing with Tavares. Vanek was hardly a hack either. Okposo scored 20 goals a season on average last 5 years with JT.

Giroux played in his early years with the likes of Aaron Asham as his linemate. For much of the recent years, he had Schenn/Raffl/Voracek on LW and Simmer/Voracek on the right. Schenn was deeply underwhelming and would disappear for games at a stretch. Simmer was a great heart and soul guy and great in the crease on the pp but not very good 5-on-5. Voracek rarely shoots. Our first line would get routinely exposed in playoffs.

He has had Couturier centering him and the emergence of Konecny for several stretches on RW past couple of years, that washes out with Nylander/Marner (thought Marner was still on his wing btw)
- PT21

Exactly that. That is why Snakevares is better than Giroux. Because that is exactly what he did. He made decent players have easily their best ever years.

And no, it's not something that only two of the best players ever can do. Lots of great players can do it. As a Leafs fan, I can tell you straight up that Sundin made a Hall of Fame career out of it. Snakevares did it for the Islanders for years.

Side note: Marner played most of this season with Matthews.

Tavares based in character alone but also goals are worth more and he has played with far lesser limemates throughout the years, on worse teams and was still a better scorer.

Dirtiest shootout goal ever.https://youtu.be/HQcAHmyrlXI
- flyeredup85

That’s a “Dasyuk” all the way, but man Giroux did put some polish on that one.

Giroux has always been a playmaker over a goal scorer. For years he was handcuffed because his line mates couldn’t handle it. On the occasions he played with Gagné early in his career, we saw some spectacular playmaking. Then it felt like his abilities were dumbed down for a few seasons. Jagr brought that back in him, but it was fleeting.

The thing is, the guy woulda been perfect with a sniper, and was never given the opportunity. Voracek is a playmaker, too. Both are great set up men that never had that killer to bury the puck.

All this guy does is post stuff to get clicks from his hometown team the Flyers and Toronto fans. What a joke

Giroux

Tavares is a soft, vastly overpaid and over-hyped player who's monotone voice has done nothing to inspire leadership into his never win a playoff series teams. Giroux plays with heart and leadership that every team would want.

Very close, but Tavares has more goals, more heart and Giroux is an ass-grabber.
- Zezel

:takes a breath:

Tavares is a soft, vastly overpaid and over-hyped player who's monotone voice has done nothing to inspire leadership into his never win a playoff series teams. Giroux plays with heart and leadership that every team would want.
- islansjet

Tavares, and it is not as close as people are saying.

Tavares is a soft, vastly overpaid and over-hyped player who's monotone voice has done nothing to inspire leadership into his never win a playoff series teams. Giroux plays with heart and leadership that every team would want.
- islansjet

JT all day.


What happened to the Jets blogs?

G, and it's not even close!


Better leader, better at the dot, better 2-way game, more offensively and is proven in the playoffs + is the grittier player of the 2 despite being significantly smaller than his counterpart
- Komisaurus Rex

The playoff argument is weak considering he hasn't played NEARLY as many, but still, at .87PPG in the playoffs vs. .94? That's pretty darn close considering JT has played less than half the number Giroux has, not to mention JT had a much weaker supporting cast on those NYI teams.

The dot? Who cares?

JT has been a more consistent point producer through his career than Giroux. In general I think JT is and has been a highly underrated player for most of his career.

I think both are very good players with different skillsets but play the game similarly. It really is a toss up and therefore the tiebreaker can only be... their mascot! Giroux has Gritty and that's enough to push the debate in his favor.

I think both are very good players with different skillsets but play the game similarly. It really is a toss up and therefore the tiebreaker can only be... their mascot! Giroux has Gritty and that's enough to push the debate in his favor.
- buster29

But the Leafs have Dart Guy.