I remember being surprised that Sundin was a first ballot HOFer yet Shanahan wasn't. They both should've been first ballot IMO. Shanny went in the following year.
- gergeswillems

It was definitely surprising that Shanahan was left off the first ballot but honestly I think Sundin has a stronger overall resume and I'm not sure it's all that close. In the 18 seasons that both were in the NHL, Sundin outscored Shanahan 16 times.

And of course Sakic (also inducted that year) outranks both of them.

IMO that last spot in 2012 was between Shanny and Oates, which is a hard call given that Oates scored a lot more points and was pretty good defensively while Shanahan just flat out scored a lot more goals.

I'd probably lean Shanahan but at that point Oates had already been snubbed for a ton of years, so I'm fine with the call the Hall made.

Sundin doesn't get enough credit IMO. The man had 15 seasons of at least 70 points. Only five players in history have as many or more (Howe 18, Gretzky 17, Dionne 16, Francis 16, Jagr 15). And he also did a greater share of his scoring at even strength than his contemporaries, particularly during his peak.

It was definitely surprising that Shanahan was left off the first ballot but honestly I think Sundin has a stronger overall resume and I'm not sure it's all that close. In the 18 seasons that both were in the NHL, Sundin outscored Shanahan 16 times.

And of course Sakic (also inducted that year) outranks both of them.

IMO that last spot in 2012 was between Shanny and Oates, which is a hard call given that Oates scored a lot more points and was pretty good defensively while Shanahan just flat out scored a lot more goals.

I'd probably lean Shanahan but at that point Oates had already been snubbed for a ton of years, so I'm fine with the call the Hall made.

Sundin doesn't get enough credit IMO. The man had 15 seasons of at least 70 points. Only five players in history have as many or more (Howe 18, Gretzky 17, Dionne 16, Francis 16, Jagr 15). And he also did a greater share of his scoring at even strength than his contemporaries, particularly during his peak.
- Sven22

I'd take Sundin over Shanny. Sundin was a dominant center who played mostly with inferior wingers. He actually made them look better than they were. When Sundin played internationally against the best players, he stood out. Especially in the 2006 Olympics when Sweden won gold.

Shanny is one of the best power wingers of all Time and I loved him as a Red Wing. But I'd take Mats over him anytime. He was just better. No slight on Shanny. 2 vastly different types of players. But even though Sundin played in Toronto, he always seemed underrated to me. I think he was under appreciated in Toronto like Fedorov was in Detroit. So much natural talent that fans took it for granted.

I'd take Sundin over Shanny. Sundin was a dominant center who played mostly with inferior wingers. He actually made them look better than they were. When Sundin played internationally against the best players, he stood out. Especially in the 2006 Olympics when Sweden won gold.

Shanny is one of the best power wingers of all Time and I loved him as a Red Wing. But I'd take Mats over him anytime. He was just better. No slight on Shanny. 2 vastly different types of players. But even though Sundin played in Toronto, he always seemed underrated to me. I think he was under appreciated in Toronto like Fedorov was in Detroit. So much natural talent that fans took it for granted.
- gergeswillems

I completely agree with everything you said.

Bolded- A lot of people still do take him for granted. It's a little different than taking for granted but I've got a few uncles that hate him because he didn't waive his no trade clause. They think that undoes everything and anything he did for the team.

And I know more that agree with that opinion. (frank)ing insane to me.

I'd take Sundin over Shanny. Sundin was a dominant center who played mostly with inferior wingers. He actually made them look better than they were. When Sundin played internationally against the best players, he stood out. Especially in the 2006 Olympics when Sweden won gold.

Shanny is one of the best power wingers of all Time and I loved him as a Red Wing. But I'd take Mats over him anytime. He was just better. No slight on Shanny. 2 vastly different types of players. But even though Sundin played in Toronto, he always seemed underrated to me. I think he was under appreciated in Toronto like Fedorov was in Detroit. So much natural talent that fans took it for granted.
- gergeswillems

We never took his natural talent for granted - it was the exact opposite.

He always felt he could have given more.

When he elevated his game, he was the best player in the league.

We just didn't see that enough.

the guy should not be in hhof


- MaximusAurelius

We never took his natural talent for granted - it was the exact opposite.

He always felt he could have given more.

When he elevated his game, he was the best player in the league.

We just didn't see that enough.
- Atomic Wedgie

That's how it was with Fedorov as well. When he was on he was ON. But so many times he was an enigma. Maybe Mats was frustrated playing with the wingers he had? I recall in 2002, being excited about a possible Detroit-Toronto SCF. I was worried about the Leafs because Gary Roberts was literally carrying them on his back. They looked dangerous. Sundin was injured. He comes back versus Carolina and it's like the Leafs were a different team. Canes eliminated them and the Wings bounced Carolina in 5 in the SCF.

I completely agree with everything you said.

Bolded- A lot of people still do take him for granted. It's a little different than taking for granted but I've got a few uncles that hate him because he didn't waive his no trade clause. They think that undoes everything and anything he did for the team.

And I know more that agree with that opinion. (frank)ing insane to me.
- GreatGigInTheSky

I'll likely create a Sundin War but I'll say this. I didn't like how Mats Sundin was treated on his way out of Toronto. I know alot of Leafs fans hated how he wouldn't waive his no trade clause.

But the guy is one of the best players in Franchise history and he was an elite and exceptional player playing with mostly crap wingers, especially during the Pat Quinn era. He still produced excellent numbers. Now he was on some very good Leafs teams and he did get his chances in the playoffs. Could he have done more? Maybe.

But he gave the Leafs the best years of his career and he was scapegoated when he left Toronto. I thought he deserved better than that. He was made to be a villain. Like all the great things he did never happened. I still wonder what would've happened had he waived his NTC in 2008 and won a Cup with Detroit? Oh well.

I didn’t run the numbers myself and it’s been a while, but if I recall correctly Sundin had the second highest even strength points per 60 minutes among NHL centers over the period from 1997 (when time on ice data became widely available) to the lockout (2003-04). I think only Forsberg was clearly ahead of him.

The main reasons he didn’t score even more IMO were:

1. Below average powerplay production for a player of his caliber (not surprising given the personnel he had to work with over the period)

2. Not getting enough minutes.

Seriously, Sundin was at worst the third or fourth most productive even strength point producer in the league for more than half a decade and barely cracked the top 50 forward in even strength ice time per game. I think that was a big coaching mistake.

Give the man some better wingers and an extra minute of ice time per game and I think a lot of those high-70s to mid-80s point seasons turn into high-80s to 90s.

I'll likely create a Sundin War but I'll say this. I didn't like how Mats Sundin was treated on his way out of Toronto. I know alot of Leafs fans hated how he wouldn't waive his no trade clause.

But the guy is one of the best players in Franchise history and he was an elite and exceptional player playing with mostly crap wingers, especially during the Pat Quinn era. He still produced excellent numbers. Now he was on some very good Leafs teams and he did get his chances in the playoffs. Could he have done more? Maybe.

But he gave the Leafs the best years of his career and he was scapegoated when he left Toronto. I thought he deserved better than that. He was made to be a villain. Like all the great things he did never happened. I still wonder what would've happened had he waived his NTC in 2008 and won a Cup with Detroit? Oh well.
- gergeswillems

Sundin is the best player in franchise history, as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't overly have a problem with how the Leafs handled him at the end. They sucked and wanted to trade him and help the future. I get that. Didn't like how public they made it though because of how everyone (fans) were on their side, 'cause they went overboard.

Sundin did what you want of any all world player; he wanted to stay put. Love the man for wanting to stay a Leaf.

Only reason he ended up leaving was because Brian Burke came in and said the Leafs were going in a different direction (rebuild/retool) and that the Leafs weren't gonna offer him a contract. So he went to Vancouver.

No HHOF for Alfie this year.

I'd put him in over Lowe and Hossa.

Better luck next year.

Sundin is the best player in franchise history, as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't overly have a problem with how the Leafs handled him at the end. They sucked and wanted to trade him and help the future. I get that. Didn't like how public they made it though because of how everyone (fans) were on their side, 'cause they went overboard.

Sundin did what you want of any all world player; he wanted to stay put. Love the man for wanting to stay a Leaf.

Only reason he ended up leaving was because Brian Burke came in and said the Leafs were going in a different direction (rebuild/retool) and that the Leafs weren't gonna offer him a contract. So he went to Vancouver.
- GreatGigInTheSky

I remember Ek's "Which team will Sundin sign with?" Blogs. He beat that dead horse for months. 😂 It was comparable to the Peter Forsberg and Iginla blogs.

No HHOF for Alfie this year.

I'd put him in over Lowe and Hossa.

Better luck next year.
- Atomic Wedgie

putting Lowe in at all, let alone over every other eligible player this year, means being a HHOF inductee means nothing.

this is a million times worse than inducting Carbonneau last year

Alfie got snubbed

I remember Ek's "Which team will Sundin sign with?" Blogs. He beat that dead horse for months. 😂 It was comparable to the Peter Forsberg and Iginla blogs.
- gergeswillems

nothing was worse than his yearly Malkin and Spezza blogs though

putting Lowe in at all, let alone over every other eligible player this year, means being a HHOF inductee means nothing.

this is a million times worse than inducting Carbonneau last year
- sensarmy_11

Maybe Maltby, Draper and McCarty have a shot after all. Grind Line baby! 12 Cups! 😊

nothing was worse than his yearly Malkin and Spezza blogs though
- sensarmy_11

The one for me was the "Kris Russell sweepstakes." Oilers are still eating that warm sandwich.

AND CORRECTLY Alfie was not named to the HOF.

With Kevin Lowe in, I look forward to seeing a few of us get inducted next year.

With Kevin Lowe in, I look forward to seeing a few of us get inducted next year.
- Michael_Stuart

Maybe Charlie Huddy, Randy Gregg, Steve Smith, Jeff Beukeboom and Craig Muni. Oh can't forget Lee Fogolin.

With Kevin Lowe in, I look forward to seeing a few of us get inducted next year.
- Michael_Stuart

i'm going to start the push to have Chris Phillips and Anton Volchenkov inducted, hell Wade Redden should be a lock now........

Maybe Charlie Huddy, Randy Gregg, Steve Smith, Jeff Beukeboom and Craig Muni. Oh can't forget Lee Fogolin.
- gergeswillems

i'm pretty sure there are 12 or 13 more 80's Oilers who need to get in first. How long before Mactavish is inducted?

i'm pretty sure there are 12 or 13 more 80's Oilers who need to get in first. How long before Mactavish is inducted?
- sensarmy_11

Dave Semenko. 😊

Dave Semenko. 😊
- gergeswillems

I used to work with his brother, he was an Infantry Master Warrant Officer......the most terrifying man I have EVER met

I used to work with his brother, he was an Infantry Master Warrant Officer......the most terrifying man I have EVER met
- sensarmy_11

Semenko was Gretzky's bodyguard. Back before The Instigator rule era. I sure wouldn't want to fight that guy!

The Hall is becoming a joke. Are they trying to catch up on defense representation or what?

There should be a statute of limitations or something on the amount of years you are eligible to enter the Hall. Personally, Kevin Lowe getting in over Alfie, Mogilny, even Theo Flurey is a joke. He played with about 5 other Hall of Famers and he certainly didn't turn them into Hall of Famers....

Doug Wilson, deserving of a spot but was long passed over, but for some reason gets in now.

Maybe seeing long passed over players will be good for Alfie eventually if nothing changes but there is just something different about getting inducted a few years after retirement instead of 20+ years. The underlining "we have to get him in now" vibe is way too strong.

If the Hall would be more exclusive, you wouldn't have nearly as many debates on who should get in but it's not and makes each years induction more and more eyebrow raising.

Fingers crossed for Alfie and Bryan Murray (builders) for better luck next year.