First, you realize this is a conspiracy theory, right? The governors, who are elected by the people of the state, are intentionally sabotaging their economy for a political future? Proof required. I'll wait.

Here's some information about Michigan's case: https://www.mlive.com/pub...onavirus-in-michigan.html


- FoxMulder

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's backed up by years of precedent of the Democratic party and the liberal left conducting policy not to suit the people but to gain power. The most recent example is the absurd bill submitted, voted on and passed by the democrat controlled house of representatives.

Here's how Trump's inconsistency hurts people: "In some cases, Trump's encouragement has contradicted the guidelines his own administration offered on reopening states, including a recommendation that the first phase only come after a 14-day "downward trajectory" of confirmed cases. In Michigan, the case count has been steadily declining, but there have been individual days where the number of new cases has increased, partly because the state has ramped up testing.
While he once proclaimed "absolute power" to reopen parts of the country, Trump later conceded that decisions about how and when to return to a more normal state would fall to individual governors, who enacted stay-at-home orders in the first place.


- FoxMulder

You're not following along. States need to be broken up into counties and individual hot spot areas identified. Some areas of a state can reopen, some can't. Using overall numbers does not paint the entire picture. That's why in the state I live in, Pennsylvania, parts of the state are opening up. While the areas around a major city such as Philadelphia, can't reopen yet. That is what the President is touting. Open up where possible.

As far as unconstitutionality goes, it seems the orders are constitutional: https://www.mlive.com/pub...ver-emergency-orders.html

Again, clear rhetoric on Trump's part appealing only to his supporters.
- FoxMulder

Unfortunately, there are plenty of activist radical judges who make bad rulings. There are numerous legal scholars and experts who deem the governors orders unconstitutional. This is why you have higher courts and appeals. Are you familiar with Judge Emmitt Sullivan? The constitutionality of this is going to go to the Supreme court. Some of it is legal but not all of it. It's out of control.

See if you can follow along. You don't not see the President of the United States during his daily activities. Since he is closely monitored and tested routinely, wearing a mask for him is not critical. Like I said, you see him in press conferences and briefings. Where as I pointed out, Doctors and scientists are also not wearing masks. It is an unfounded criticism on your part.






It's political rhetoric. Time and again, Trump has been proven correct when accused of pushing conspiracy theories. When will the left ever learn?




You posted articles but not any proof. Go head and post the audio and video.



You're not entitled to your own facts. What you offered is the typical liberal far left talking points and then tried to support it with biased media. The second you posted that Trump suggested that people ingest disinfectants, you were exposed.
- MJL

https://www.whitehouse.go...-force-press-briefing-31/

THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

https://www.whitehouse.go...-force-press-briefing-31/

THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.
- abware

Exactly. Thank you. I'm aware of what he said.

See if you can follow along. You don't not see the President of the United States during his daily activities. Since he is closely monitored and tested routinely, wearing a mask for him is not critical. Like I said, you see him in press conferences and briefings. Where as I pointed out, Doctors and scientists are also not wearing masks. It is an unfounded criticism on your part.






It's political rhetoric. Time and again, Trump has been proven correct when accused of pushing conspiracy theories. When will the left ever learn?




You posted articles but not any proof. Go head and post the audio and video.



You're not entitled to your own facts. What you offered is the typical liberal far left talking points and then tried to support it with biased media. The second you posted that Trump suggested that people ingest disinfectants, you were exposed.
- MJL

Disclaimer: I am not American and have no dog in this political fight.

Whatever else you guys are debating, I watched the press conference in which Trump essentially asked the doctors surrounding him on the stage if they shouldn't be looking into injecting disinfectants as a cure. It was beyond shocking. And it absolutely happened. You are discrediting yourself by denying it.
He may not have actually told people to do it. But, floating the idea at the podium, with a live mic in his face rather than maybe behind closed doors in a brainstorming session was unbelievable and extremely dumb. There are enough idiots out there that you can be sure a good number of people took it as advice from their leader. He has to be better than that.

Exactly. Thank you. I'm aware of what he said.
- MJL

Umm, you just denied that he said it, like 5 times.

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's backed up by years of precedent of the Democratic party and the liberal left conducting policy not to suit the people but to gain power. The most recent example is the absurd bill submitted, voted on and passed by the democrat controlled house of representatives.



You're not following along. States need to be broken up into counties and individual hot spot areas identified. Some areas of a state can reopen, some can't. Using overall numbers does not paint the entire picture. That's why in the state I live in, Pennsylvania, parts of the state are opening up. While the areas around a major city such as Philadelphia, can't reopen yet. That is what the President is touting. Open up where possible.





Unfortunately, there are plenty of activist radical judges who make bad rulings. There are numerous legal scholars and experts who deem the governors orders unconstitutional. This is why you have higher courts and appeals. Are you familiar with Judge Emmitt Sullivan?
- MJL

All of history any opposing political party tries to undermine the other. It seems like you are trying to say only the democrats are guilty of this.

I actually agree to a point with your second paragraph. The world, not just the US needs to try to get back on track, but brace for a second wave and be prepared for another quarantine (worst case scenario)

There are plenty of activist radical politicians on both sides. Stop trying to paint one side as self-serving, while the other as 'for the people'

Disclaimer: I am not American and have no dog in this political fight.

Whatever else you guys are debating, I watched the press conference in which Trump essentially asked the doctors surrounding him on the stage if they shouldn't be looking into injecting disinfectants as a cure. It was beyond shocking. And it absolutely happened. You are discrediting yourself by denying it.
He may not have actually told people to do it. But, floating the idea at the podium, with a live mic in his face rather than maybe behind closed doors in a brainstorming session was unbelievable and extremely dumb. There are enough idiots out there that you can be sure a good number of people took it as advice from their leader. He has to be better than that.
- Tonybere

I'm not discrediting myself for these simple reasons. One, I have not denied that he made that statement. Two, I have on multiple occasions posted that I disagreed with making the statement and that it was not smart to do so. I have also stated multiple times that I believe that the President should leave all medical opinions and talk, including on issues like that, medications, treatments, etc to the Doctors and the Scientists. That is why they're there.

What I object to is the claim that he suggested that people ingest or inject disinfectants.

Umm, you just denied that he said it, like 5 times.
- Tonybere

You're incorrect.

See if you can follow along. You don't not see the President of the United States during his daily activities. Since he is closely monitored and tested routinely, wearing a mask for him is not critical. Like I said, you see him in press conferences and briefings. Where as I pointed out, Doctors and scientists are also not wearing masks. It is an unfounded criticism on your part.

It's political rhetoric. Time and again, Trump has been proven correct when accused of pushing conspiracy theories. When will the left ever learn?

You posted articles but not any proof. Go head and post the audio and video.

You're not entitled to your own facts. What you offered is the typical liberal far left talking points and then tried to support it with biased media. The second you posted that Trump suggested that people ingest disinfectants, you were exposed.
- MJL

On wearing masks: https://www.nbcnews.com/p...nd-wrong-message-n1202001

Republicans are even trying to get him to wear one: https://www.politico.com/...p-mask-coronavirus-251239

Why it matters: https://www.npr.org/2020/...ers-and-sweaters-to-masks

Conspiracy theories touted by Trump: Birtherism, Clinton body counts, Deep state, Vince Foster, Global warming a chinese hoax, Maria death toll, vaccines cause autism, QAnon, spygate, windmills cause cancer, wiretapping, disinfectant injections, and those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Pray tell which ones have been proven correct and cite evidence.

Video of Trump's ingestion remark:

[url]

All of history any opposing political party tries to undermine the other. It seems like you are trying to say only the democrats are guilty of this.

I actually agree to a point with your second paragraph. The world, not just the US needs to try to get back on track, but brace for a second wave and be prepared for another quarantine (worst case scenario)

There are plenty of activist radical politicians on both sides. Stop trying to paint one side as self-serving, while the other as 'for the people'
- abware

There is a difference between reasonable political battles and using a pandemic catastrophe to try and sneak in a far left socialist radical agenda such as immigration reform and other radical far left policies.

On wearing masks: https://www.nbcnews.com/p...nd-wrong-message-n1202001

Republicans are even trying to get him to wear one: https://www.politico.com/...p-mask-coronavirus-251239

Why it matters: https://www.npr.org/2020/...ers-and-sweaters-to-masks

Conspiracy theories touted by Trump: Birtherism, Clinton body counts, Deep state, Vince Foster, Global warming a chinese hoax, Maria death toll, vaccines cause autism, QAnon, spygate, windmills cause cancer, wiretapping, disinfectant injections, and those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Pray tell which ones have been proven correct and cite evidence.

Video of Trump's ingestion remark:


- FoxMulder[url]

I'm a huge fan of the ole sources not authorized. You should be smarter than that.

Notice the picture of Doctors and Nurses standing behind Trump. What aren't they wearing and why?

There is a difference between reasonable political battles and using a pandemic catastrophe to try and sneak in a far left socialist radical agenda such as immigration reform and other radical far left policies.
- MJL

Immigration reform is a far left socialist agenda?

From 2018:
Republicans are supposed to vote tomorrow on two competing bills. One, a hard-line measure sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, would significantly reduce legal immigration, beef up border security, require employers to use the E-Verify system to verify the citizenship of employees (it’s currently voluntary) and give the “dreamers” a temporary legal status but not citizenship. The other, a slightly less severe measure supported by the House leadership, would also restrict legal immigration, but wouldn’t require E-Verify and provides a path to citizenship for dreamers.

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...orm-theyre-going-to-fail/

Those pesky radical socialist Republicans...

I'm not discrediting myself for these simple reasons. One, I have not denied that he made that statement. Two, I have on multiple occasions posted that I disagreed with making the statement and that it was not smart to do so. I have also stated multiple times that I believe that the President should leave all medical opinions and talk, including on issues like that, medications, treatments, etc to the Doctors and the Scientists. That is why they're there.

What I object to is the claim that he suggested that people ingest or inject disinfectants.
- MJL

Fair enough.
I would state that I have reasonable skills in literacy and reading comprehension and in following this debate, I reached the conclusion that you were denying his comments. Maybe my fault, but an honest appraisal.
Either way, no personal attack intended here.

Immigration reform is a far left socialist agenda?

From 2018:
Republicans are supposed to vote tomorrow on two competing bills. One, a hard-line measure sponsored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte, would significantly reduce legal immigration, beef up border security, require employers to use the E-Verify system to verify the citizenship of employees (it’s currently voluntary) and give the “dreamers” a temporary legal status but not citizenship. The other, a slightly less severe measure supported by the House leadership, would also restrict legal immigration, but wouldn’t require E-Verify and provides a path to citizenship for dreamers.

Source: https://www.washingtonpos...orm-theyre-going-to-fail/

Those pesky radical socialist Republicans...
- FoxMulder

I figured you would understand that what is meant is the far left liberal idea of what they want done with immigration reform. That is what is in their bill.

I'm a huge fan of the ole sources not authorized. You should be smarter than that.

Notice the picture of Doctors and Nurses standing behind Trump. What aren't they wearing and why?
- MJL

Not taking one side or the other here, because this is merely speculation on my part, but...

Is it unreasonable to suggest the possibility that the guy who fires top-ranking officials for disagreeing with him may have told those doctors not to wear masks on stage while he isn't wearing one because it would make him look bad?
True, not true. Either way it's possible. I mean it has always been obvious that the guy's greatest fear is looking bad in the public eye.

Fair enough.
I would state that I have reasonable skills in literacy and reading comprehension and in following this debate, I reached the conclusion that you were denying his comments. Maybe my fault, but an honest appraisal.
Either way, no personal attack intended here.
- Tonybere

No offense taken but there is not a single point where I denied the statement that he made.

Not taking one side or the other here, because this is merely speculation on my part, but...

Is it unreasonable to suggest the possibility that the guy who fires top-ranking officials for disagreeing with him may have told those doctors not to wear masks on stage while he isn't wearing one because it would make him look bad?
True, not true. Either way it's possible. I mean it has always been obvious that the guy's greatest fear is looking bad in the public eye.
- Tonybere

Would the Doctors and Nurses have a choice and the free will to decide that if they felt they needed to wear a mask and were told that they couldn't, to decline the invitation to the oval office and the photo op? We live in America right?

You're not following along. States need to be broken up into counties and individual hot spot areas identified. Some areas of a state can reopen, some can't. Using overall numbers does not paint the entire picture. That's why in the state I live in, Pennsylvania, parts of the state are opening up. While the areas around a major city such as Philadelphia, can't reopen yet. That is what the President is touting. Open up where possible.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s plan for reopening Michigan during the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic breaks the state into eight regions.

https://www.clickondetroi...gions-for-reopening-plan/

This kind of tears up the whole "unconstitutional, governor power grab" narrative, huh?

I'm not discrediting myself for these simple reasons. One, I have not denied that he made that statement. Two, I have on multiple occasions posted that I disagreed with making the statement and that it was not smart to do so. I have also stated multiple times that I believe that the President should leave all medical opinions and talk, including on issues like that, medications, treatments, etc to the Doctors and the Scientists. That is why they're there.

What I object to is the claim that he suggested that people ingest or inject disinfectants.
- MJL

Not only was it not smart to do so, it was absolutely asinine. For anyone to question whether injecting bleach or other chemicals into themselves as a possible solution to a current pandemic is dangerous, but the president of the US??? Beyond stupid.

Ok so the French study with one of the worlds, leading, epidemiologists with over a 1000 patients enrolled with a 98% success rate means nothing?
- Cptmjl

Source?

... and it better be credible, impartial, peer-reviewed, double blind, controlled for other variables like age, stage of infection, symptoms and severity at the on-set of the study and of course published on a recognized and respected source.

and I want a clear definition of "success".

If none of those things are true, you are a buffoon for even mentioning it.

I'll be waiting.

Would the Doctors and Nurses have a choice and the free will to decide that if they felt they needed to wear a mask and were told that they couldn't, to decline the invitation to the oval office and the photo op? We live in America right?
- MJL

Every bit as reasonable and possible as my hypothesis.
Loving your commitment to civility and evidence even when your obvious passion and political leaning comes through!!

You're not following along. States need to be broken up into counties and individual hot spot areas identified. Some areas of a state can reopen, some can't. Using overall numbers does not paint the entire picture. That's why in the state I live in, Pennsylvania, parts of the state are opening up. While the areas around a major city such as Philadelphia, can't reopen yet. That is what the President is touting. Open up where possible.

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s plan for reopening Michigan during the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic breaks the state into eight regions.

https://www.clickondetroi...gions-for-reopening-plan/

This kind of tears up the whole "unconstitutional, governor power grab" narrative, huh?
- FoxMulder

The power grab is about wide ranging topics, not just about a reopening strategy. Threatening to arrest those who violate a stay at home order. My comment is on reply to your criticism that the President is encouraging people to gather. That's not what he is doing. He is encouraging people to fight back and stand up for their rights.

Not taking one side or the other here, because this is merely speculation on my part, but...

Is it unreasonable to suggest the possibility that the guy who fires top-ranking officials for disagreeing with him may have told those doctors not to wear masks on stage while he isn't wearing one because it would make him look bad?
True, not true. Either way it's possible. I mean it has always been obvious that the guy's greatest fear is looking bad in the public eye.
- Tonybere

IF this was the case (and it could be proven) then it is a terrible idea and he should rightly be criticized for it.

My problem with your statement is the bolded. I will not deny at all that he is a pompous, self- aggrandizing blow hard (like most politicians). Is there any evidence that he has fired top ranking officials simply because they disagreed with him, or were there actual offenses committed (i.e. they were not performing the job as instructed, or undermining the things he was trying to accomplish)?

Not only was it not smart to do so, it was absolutely asinine. For anyone to question whether injecting bleach or other chemicals into themselves as a possible solution to a current pandemic is dangerous, but the president of the US??? Beyond stupid.
- abware

You have it wrong again.

There is a difference between reasonable political battles and using a pandemic catastrophe to try and sneak in a far left socialist radical agenda such as immigration reform and other radical far left policies.
- MJL

Very early on, our far left, minority government tried to sneak in absolute power over passing whatever bills they wanted.