For the opposite approach consider this. The area near Milan is the fashion capital of the world. Tens of thousands of Chinese work there (Italy has the highest number of direct flights to China in Europe). For some reason I don't know, a lot of them come from Huabei, the province where Wuhan is.

The Chinese New Year this year was Jan 25. Tens of thousands of these workers went to China and returned after a week to 2 week break. By this time, there was discrimination in the area because of Coronavirus.

The local authorities, fearful of the Chinese leaving an important industry, ran an aggressive campain to "hug a Chinese".

The rest, as they say, is history.


- PT21

The disease of political correctness is more dangerous than the ChiCom Virus.

Actually, yes they do. Look at the places that have slowed it down. Here's a link to how it works in the Czech Republic which has few cases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZtEX2-n2Hc
- Letterkenney

Social distancing and isolation is the most important tool in this fight.

PT, you need to know the truth about how the ChiComs were completely negligent wit this virus. Giving a communist tyrannical regime that puts millions of people in concentration camps and who unleashes a pandemic on the world is a bad position to put yourself in. Here is a timeline, all cross linked to sources:

https://www.nationalrevie...t-popular&utm_term=second
- Letterkenney

This is all old news. The summary is this: The local authorities in Wuhan were fearful of sending bad news upstairs to Beijing. They tried to tamp it down, fearful of being the messenger of ill tidings, until it was too late.

This is what happens when you have a (frank)ed up system of governance, but that is the norm in most countries outside a few.

The Chinese should absolutely be held to account, but there is no evidence that this was an act of biological warfare by any side. Those who hold such views are crackpots.

This is all old news. The summary is this: The local authorities in Wuhan were fearful of sending bad news upstairs to Beijing. They tried to tamp it down, fearful of being the messenger of ill tidings, until it was too late.

This is what happens when you have a (frank)ed up system of governance, but that is the norm in most countries outside a few.

The Chinese should absolutely be held to account, but there is no evidence that this was an act of biological warfare by any side. Those who hold such views are crackpots.
- PT21

You do understand why I added the smiley after my comment?

No, you're incorrect that this was the local authorities that were doing the misleading. The local authorities wanted to get it out. It was the communist government that repeatedly said for up to 6 weeks after they knew for a fact that it could, that there was no evidence of human to human transmission. Meanwhile, millions of people had left Wuhan China to other parts of China and the World.

Social distancing and isolation is the most important tool in this fight.
- MJL

Certainly part of it, but did you watch the video? Clearly, masks stop the spread. Pretty soon, you will see the CDC telling people that they should wear masks in public. The word out previously about masks not working well was done to stop people from hoarding masks so that the healthcare workers and public servants would get their supplies. I get it and I agree with that measure. Ask yourself, if the masks don't work, why do they wear them in hospitals? But, with all the companies joining in to make masks now, that shortage will decline quickly and the recommendation for everyone to wear them will start coming. You'll see. Probably will not be made into law in most places, but the recommendations will be there for the public just as social distancing is the recommendation.

The more people slow the transmission by all means, the quicker we can get back to public gatherings like baseball and hockey and have a chance to get our normal lives back. That was the basis behind my idea of Flyers giving away masks at games.

This is all old news. The summary is this: The local authorities in Wuhan were fearful of sending bad news upstairs to Beijing. They tried to tamp it down, fearful of being the messenger of ill tidings, until it was too late.

This is what happens when you have a (frank)ed up system of governance, but that is the norm in most countries outside a few.

The Chinese should absolutely be held to account, but there is no evidence that this was an act of biological warfare by any side. Those who hold such views are crackpots.
- PT21

Agreed, but I NEVER said it was biological warfare. I don't think it was. I do think that since the ChiComs control the media, and it is well known fact that they "disappear" journalists and others that spread the truth, this was a case typical of communist scumbags.... appearance is more important than truth. And it was their efforts to this hide the truth that gave the virus the time to spread around the world.

Certainly part of it, but did you watch the video? Clearly, masks stop the spread. Pretty soon, you will see the CDC telling people that they should wear masks in public. The word out previously about masks not working well was done to stop people from hoarding masks so that the healthcare workers and public servants would get their supplies. I get it and I agree with that measure. Ask yourself, if the masks don't work, why do they wear them in hospitals? But, with all the companies joining in to make masks now, that shortage will decline quickly and the recommendation for everyone to wear them will start coming. You'll see. Probably will not be made into law in most places, but the recommendations will be there for the public just as social distancing is the recommendation.

The more people slow the transmission by all means, the quicker we can get back to public gatherings like baseball and hockey and have a chance to get our normal lives back. That was the basis behind my idea of Flyers giving away masks at games.
- Letterkenney

I did not state that masks don't work.

Certainly part of it, but did you watch the video? Clearly, masks stop the spread. Pretty soon, you will see the CDC telling people that they should wear masks in public. The word out previously about masks not working well was done to stop people from hoarding masks so that the healthcare workers and public servants would get their supplies. I get it and I agree with that measure. Ask yourself, if the masks don't work, why do they wear them in hospitals? But, with all the companies joining in to make masks now, that shortage will decline quickly and the recommendation for everyone to wear them will start coming. You'll see. Probably will not be made into law in most places, but the recommendations will be there for the public just as social distancing is the recommendation.

The more people slow the transmission by all means, the quicker we can get back to public gatherings like baseball and hockey and have a chance to get our normal lives back. That was the basis behind my idea of Flyers giving away masks at games.
- Letterkenney

The point I was making that if this thing is still going around, having a large social gathering and just giving everyone a mask is a really bad idea.

The point I was making that if this thing is still going around, having a large social gathering and just giving everyone a mask is a really bad idea.
- MJL

As I said in another post yesterday, the Flyers (and all NHL teams) should have giveaways of masks with the Flyers logo on them. Sponsored by Toyota, or some other company. Turn these lemons into lemonade and mitigate transmission to a considerable degree. Of course, once it's reasonably safe to get the season going again, if possible.


Read the bold.

As I said in another post yesterday, the Flyers (and all NHL teams) should have giveaways of masks with the Flyers logo on them. Sponsored by Toyota, or some other company. Turn these lemons into lemonade and mitigate transmission to a considerable degree. Of course, once it's reasonably safe to get the season going again, if possible.


Read the bold.
- Letterkenney

I did read that. I'll repeat, even if it is reasonably safe, having a large social gathering and just giving people masks is a really bad idea. Until they have full control and know that there is not going to be a rebound of some sort, large social gatherings, especially of thousands of people is not smart. People who think that just wearing a mask is going to protect them from this, are misguided.

You do understand why I added the smiley after my comment?

No, you're incorrect that this was the local authorities that were doing the misleading. The local authorities wanted to get it out. It was the communist government that repeatedly said for up to 6 weeks after they knew for a fact that it could, that there was no evidence of human to human transmission. Meanwhile, millions of people had left Wuhan China to other parts of China and the World.
- MJL

Crackpot comment was not addressed to you.

The Communist Party is not one entity that micromanages everything in the humongous country. It has many layers. From every account I have read, the erroneous decisions were taken at the provincial level of Huabei. The authorities in China appear to have had a delay of about 7 to 10 days that should have been prevented.

Governments try to suppress bad news everywhere. It happened with the same situation in our country. Private labs in Washington were not given FDA approval to run tests when they were fully capable until weeks and weeks after first cases were spotted here and after people knew the new CDC kits did not work.

Crackpot comment was not addressed to you.

The Communist Party is not one entity that micromanages everything in the humongous country. It has many layers. From every account I have read, the erroneous decisions were taken at the provincial level of Huabei. The authorities in China appear to have had a delay of about 7 to 10 days that should have been prevented.

Governments try to suppress bad news everywhere. It happened with the same situation in our country. Private labs in Washington were not given FDA approval to run tests when they were fully capable until weeks and weeks after first cases were spotted here and after people knew the new CDC kits did not work.
- PT21

You're wrong about that. The Comunist party absolutely is the one entity that micromanages everything. That's why for 6 weeks or longer they were insisting that this could not be spread human to human. They weren't trying to suppress bad news. They were trying to suppress the facts that they knew! Dr. Li Wenliang, who would eventually contract the virus and die from it, was trying to alert people in late December. The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission (government) kept repeating that there was no evidence of human to human transmission. Dr. Wenliang was taken to the police station in early January and made to sign a statement of his guilt of misdemeanor and spreading false rumors. Seven others are arrested and they don't know what happened to them. By this time millions of people have left Wuhan and there are many cases that don't have a connection to Wuhan. They continued to suppress all information. Outside experts were recommending that Wuhan should be locked down. Chinese scientists were forbidden to speak to experts outside of China about the virus. It wasn't until a month later after the first case in China that the US was notified. This is not local people trying to suppress bad news. This is a communist government effort to hide the truth which has caused a global pandemic rather than a isolated breakout that could've been controlled.

I did read that. I'll repeat, even if it is reasonably safe, having a large social gathering and just giving people masks is a really bad idea. Until they have full control and know that there is not going to be a rebound of some sort, large social gatherings, especially of thousands of people is not smart. People who think that just wearing a mask is going to protect them from this, are misguided.
- MJL

By definition, if it's "reasonably safe" then it's reasonably safe to have large social gatherings with a measure of protection to allow such "reasonably safe" gathering. I'm not sure how I could make the inference any more clear.

By definition, if it's "reasonably safe" then it's reasonably safe to have large social gatherings with a measure of protection to allow such "reasonably safe" gathering. I'm not sure how I could make the inference any more clear.
- Letterkenney

So if you're told it's reasonably safe does that make you confident enough to place yourself in a gathering of thousands? It doesn't for me. What about having to touch surfaces going into the place? Or having to go to the bathroom? Wearing a mask is not enough.

Experts are saying that a mask has to be worn properly and maintained. If you touch the mask then you have to dispose of the mask and wash your hands. People think that a mask makes them safe, it doesn't. It helps for sure, especially if you have a cough or are sick. But it's not a cure all. That's my point. Social distancing and isolation is the most important tool. Which concerns me because as I travel around Philadelphia, I see a lot more people out than should be.

You're wrong about that. The Comunist party absolutely is the one entity that micromanages everything. That's why for 6 weeks or longer they were insisting that this could not be spread human to human. They weren't trying to suppress bad news. They were trying to suppress the facts that they knew! Dr. Li Wenliang, who would eventually contract the virus and die from it, was trying to alert people in late December. The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission (government) kept repeating that there was no evidence of human to human transmission. Dr. Wenliang was taken to the police station in early January and made to sign a statement of his guilt of misdemeanor and spreading false rumors. Seven others are arrested and they don't know what happened to them. By this time millions of people have left Wuhan and there are many cases that don't have a connection to Wuhan. They continued to suppress all information. It wasn't until a month later after the first case in China that the US was notified. This is not local people trying to suppress bad news. This is a communist government effort to hid the truth which has caused a global pandemic rather than a isolated breakout that could've been controled.
- MJL

I am confused as to why an American would feel some need to defend the scumbag Chinese Communists... the same scumbags that put over 1 million Uighurs in concentration camps. This is tantamount to singing the praises of Hitler because he made the trains run on time, forget about those 6 million Jews he put in ovens.

I am confused as to why an American would feel some need to defend the scumbag Chinese Communists... the same scumbags that put over 1 million Uighurs in concentration camps. This is tantamount to singing the praises of Hitler because he made the trains run on time, forget about those 6 million Jews he put in ovens.
- Letterkenney

Listen, I think he is misguided about a number of things but please, don't place that on him with the Hitler comment. That's out of bounds and uncalled for.

So if you're told it's reasonably safe does that make you confident enough to place yourself in a gathering of thousands? It doesn't for me. What about having to touch surfaces going into the place? Or having to go to the bathroom? Wearing a mask is not enough.

Experts are saying that a mask has to be worn properly and maintained. If you touch the mask then you have to dispose of the mask and wash your hands. People think that a mask makes them safe, it doesn't. It helps for sure, especially if you have a cough or are sick. But it's not a cure all. That's my point.
- MJL

Perhaps you're misunderstanding the term "reasonably safe" as intended. The NHL will NOT open the season when the threat is still high or even moderately high. But, when the cases have diminished and the spread has slowed to a trickle, then it's reasonably safe. And yes, I would go to the games with a mask on. Do you go to the grocery story? I am pretty sure you do. So do I. But I'm one of the few that wear a mask to the store, but more and more are wearing them as I see them the once every 3 days when I go. Again, I ask you why do healthcare workers wear masks if they're not really effective?

My point is this: there will be a time when the spread is slowed to a trickle. And, treatments that are highly effective will have been tested and proven with the evidence of a very high number of cases. At that point, we can begin to get back to a normal life. And doing so may include the safety measure of wearing masks at large gatherings to mitigate the possibility of transfer of Chinese Virus.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding the term "reasonably safe" as intended. The NHL will NOT open the season when the threat is still high or even moderately high. But, when the cases have diminished and the spread has slowed to a trickle, then it's reasonably safe. And yes, I would go to the games with a mask on. Do you go to the grocery story? I am pretty sure you do. So do I. But I'm one of the few that wear a mask to the store, but more and more are wearing them as I see them the once every 3 days when I go. Again, I ask you why do healthcare workers wear masks if they're not really effective?

My point is this: there will be a time when the spread is slowed to a trickle. And, treatments that are highly effective will have been tested and proven with the evidence of a very high number of cases. At that point, we can begin to get back to a normal life. And doing so may include the safety measure of wearing masks at large gatherings to mitigate the possibility of transfer of Chinese Virus.
- Letterkenney

Reasonably is not hard to understand. I have news for you, the NHL is not going to play games with fans if it is just reasonably safe.

I go to a grocery store because I need to get food to feed my family. Otherwise, I wouldn't be going.

Again, what aren't you getting? I did not say that masks are not effective. I said that mask alone are not enough. Do medical personnel just wear a mask or do they also wear other PPE's? A mask is not going to protect you if it's not the right mask, worn properly or maintained properly. It also may not protect you from infected surfaces.

Lastly, do you really think the NHL is going to open themselves to the potential liability of providing masks for people. More importantly, if it is safe, why do you need to wear a mask at a hockey game?

Reasonably is not hard to understand. I have news for you, the NHL is not going to play games with fans if it is just reasonably safe.

I go to a grocery store because I need to get food to feed my family. Otherwise, I wouldn't be going.

Again, what aren't you getting? I did not say that masks are not effective. I said that mask alone are not enough. Do medical personnel just wear a mask or do they also wear other PPE's? A mask is not going to protect you if it's not the right mask, worn properly or maintained properly. It also may not protect you from infected surfaces.

Lastly, do you really think the NHL is going to open themselves to the potential liability of providing masks for people. More importantly, if it is safe, why do you need to wear a mask at a hockey game?
- MJL

Wearing a mask to a hockey game is a measure of safety when the outbreak is under control. A measure to keep it under control once we know it's safe to do so with limited chance of exposure. Further, hand sanitizer stations all over the place combined with the fact that EVERYONE will be using them makes a social event possible. What I'm saying is that we will NEVER reduce the risk of transmission of flu or cold or Chines virus to zero. It will NEVER happen. We should not shut down our economy or the things that come with it like hockey. The price of shutting this down to a point of zero risk is WAAAAAYYYY worse and costly than the benefit of becoming 330 million hermits. How healthy is it for 100 million Americans to lose their jobs and their homes? It's nonsense. People get sick and die all the time by the thousands all day long every single day. NOTHING will change that. But why shut the whole economy down because of this once it's reasonably under control? Hockey games are just an example of this. Once we have the spread down to a trickle, wearing masks in public will mitigate the spread further. This is tautological.

Wearing a mask to a hockey game is a measure of safety when the outbreak is under control. A measure to keep it under control once we know it's safe to do so with limited chance of exposure. Further, hand sanitizer stations all over the place combined with the fact that EVERYONE will be using them makes a social event possible. What I'm saying is that we will NEVER reduce the risk of transmission of flu or cold or Chines virus to zero. It will NEVER happen. We should not shut down our economy or the things that come with it like hockey. The price of shutting this down to a point of zero risk is WAAAAAYYYY worse and costly than the benefit of becoming 330 million hermits. How healthy is it for 100 million Americans to lose their jobs and their homes? It's nonsense. People get sick and die all the time by the thousands all day long every single day. NOTHING will change that. But why shut the whole economy down because of this once it's reasonably under control? Hockey games are just an example of this. Once we have the spread down to a trickle, wearing masks in public will mitigate the spread further. This is tautological.
- Letterkenney

I completely agree with you that a crashed economy is far more dangerous and will cost more lives than the corona virus will. That being said, I think your standard of reasonably safe is off base. Wearing masks and even using hand sanitizer is not enough at that level. Read what all the experts are saying. By far the best mitigation factor is social isolation and staying home. That public behavior is the only thing that is going to change the course of the pandemic. That is why the social distancing guidelines have been extended to April 30th. It will need to be more than reasonably safe for events like hockey games with fans to continue. An increase in infections due to events like that could kill millions.

You're wrong about that. The Comunist party absolutely is the one entity that micromanages everything. That's why for 6 weeks or longer they were insisting that this could not be spread human to human. They weren't trying to suppress bad news. They were trying to suppress the facts that they knew! Dr. Li Wenliang, who would eventually contract the virus and die from it, was trying to alert people in late December. The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission (government) kept repeating that there was no evidence of human to human transmission. Dr. Wenliang was taken to the police station in early January and made to sign a statement of his guilt of misdemeanor and spreading false rumors. Seven others are arrested and they don't know what happened to them. By this time millions of people have left Wuhan and there are many cases that don't have a connection to Wuhan. They continued to suppress all information. Outside experts were recommending that Wuhan should be locked down. Chinese scientists were forbidden to speak to experts outside of China about the virus. It wasn't until a month later after the first case in China that the US was notified. This is not local people trying to suppress bad news. This is a communist government effort to hide the truth which has caused a global pandemic rather than a isolated breakout that could've been controlled.
- MJL

The Chinese party has many layers of control. Its like having a local municipality take decisions - that is part of the county, which is part of the state, All are part of the same state government - but they have different layers.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission /= the Central Chinese Politburo, just like the decisions taken by a Captain of an infantry regiment is not the Centcom.

The point I was making that if this thing is still going around, having a large social gathering and just giving everyone a mask is a really bad idea.
- MJL

100% agree.

Anyway, the masks really don't protect the wearer so much as protect people in proximity to the wearer getting exposed to wearer's droplets. People's mouths are spray machines. Everybody spits tiny droplets of saliva when the speak, even if it can't be seen. This is the case for doctors wearing them. It's not so much to keep them from getting exposed (face shields are for that purpose), it's to keep them from spreading their germs onto their patients, especially when conducting a medical procedure such as an operation.

If anything, masks protects the casual wearer the most by keeping them inadvertently touching their mouths and noses.

But that's all dependent on them being worn correctly. I see too many numbnuts wearing them too loosely so that the corners of their mouths are exposed. Or worst yet, I see them only covering their mouths but not their noses.

So like MJL says, what happens when this occurs in large gatherings? Whose going to make sure everyone is wearing them correctly at all times? Let's say this is a hockey game. You'll also have to prohibit all concessions and people bringing their own food and drinks; masks can't be pulled aside for that in this kind of setting. You'll also have to keep people from getting too excited where they scream and shout, as the masks aren't designed for that kind of use. Whose going to enforce all of this? The PA announcer admonishing the crowd isn't going to cut it.

Like MJL also says, social distancing and the ban on large gatherings is the only effective way to keep everyone safest from being exposed and possibly infected.

I am confused as to why an American would feel some need to defend the scumbag Chinese Communists... the same scumbags that put over 1 million Uighurs in concentration camps. This is tantamount to singing the praises of Hitler because he made the trains run on time, forget about those 6 million Jews he put in ovens.
- Letterkenney

Your understanding of Chinese politics is not very good. And I am being very polite.

yes, China did those things and much worse. They are far from angels. They are ruthless and totalitarian. No one should have any illusions.

They are also the same regime that has been responsible for the most concentrated upliftment of living standards the world has ever known in its human history, and nothing comes remotely, remotely close. In just 35 odd years, the Chinese poverty rate went from about 90% to less than 1%. That's about 1 billion people, btw.

And they are also the regime that has provided many of our companies access to reliable low cost manufacturing and allowed them to make and save trillions, which have been passed along as savings and salaries and wages to US consumers. And you know who is the biggest financier of US govt spending, who will buy the bonds the government will have to sell to finance the stimulus bill and anything else large/ You got it - the Chinese government.

The Chinese party has many layers of control. Its like having a local municipality take decisions - that is part of the county, which is part of the state, All are part of the same state government - but they have different layers.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission /= the Central Chinese Politburo, just like the decisions taken by a Captain of an infantry regiment is not the Centcom.
- PT21

Not a very good reply.

You do know that Wuhan is the most populated city in central China. Wuhan is considered the political, economic, financial, commercial, cultural, and educational center of Central China. It is a major transportation hub, with dozens of railways, roads and expressways passing through the city and connecting to other major cities. It's not controlled by some local city council. It's controlled by the Chinese communist government just like everything is. Nothing gets out unless they want it to.

Do you know that the wet markets in Wuhan are now open with business as usual? Only now they have security which will not allow any media or pictures taken.

Your understanding of Chinese politics is not very good. And I am being very polite.

yes, China did those things and much worse. They are far from angels. They are ruthless and totalitarian. No one should have any illusions.

They are also the same regime that has been responsible for the most concentrated upliftment of living standards the world has ever known in its human history, and nothing comes remotely, remotely close. In just 35 odd years, the Chinese poverty rate went from about 90% to less than 1%. That's about 1 billion people, btw.

And they are also the regime that has provided many of our companies access to reliable low cost manufacturing and allowed them to make and save trillions, which have been passed along as savings and salaries and wages to US consumers. And you know who is the biggest financier of US govt spending, who will buy the bonds the government will have to sell to finance the stimulus bill and anything else large/ You got it - the Chinese government.
- PT21

This is just another big strawman argument. None of what you state here refutes what he is suggesting or has anything to do with the culpability of the Chinese communist government in this global pnademic.

For the second paragraph, China does all that for their own benefit. You act like China is being so gracious to the world and is some benevolent caring nation. They're not. They want to conquer the US and take over the world. That is their goal.

Its you who doesn't understand Chinese politics and trust me, that is being polite.