The savings difference is not enough to justify it. In a playoff run you don't want serviceable depth at defense. Gostisbehere is capable of playing a top 4 puck moving role and high minutes. He is far more capable of replacing a top defenseman is than a serviceable depth defenseman.

The debate is not that forward and scoring depth is not important which is what you're trying to establish here. That is not being said. It's about making a choice which is what is being done. If a choice has to be made, defense depth is more important. Then adding in all the other variables which I mentioned previously, the choice becomes obvious.
- MJL

MJL, I agree with your assessment that the most likely buyout would be JVR given his contract and age in the context of the team moving forward with the assets and future assets they have. I do see PT21's point from the perspective of searching to find alternatives.

All that said, I have a strong hunch that the cap next year is going to actually have to go down. The economics just cant be ignored. I know that all contracts will likely contract proportionately, but the same problem persists with the overall cap and on a player by player basis. Not sure how the heck this can be avoided at this point. It's just so disappointing.

MJL, I agree with your assessment that the most likely buyout would be JVR given his contract and age in the context of the team moving forward with the assets and future assets they have. I do see PT21's point from the perspective of searching to find alternatives.

All that said, I have a strong hunch that the cap next year is going to actually have to go down. The economics just cant be ignored. I know that all contracts will likely contract proportionately, but the same problem persists with the overall cap and on a player by player basis. Not sure how the heck this can be avoided at this point. It's just so disappointing.
- Letterkenney

In my opinion, the league is going to meet with the NHLPA and negotiate the cap to stay the same. The bigger issue is escrow. If the season doesn't resume or if it's not played in full, the players are going to hurt by that this year. You also save 2M more in buying out JVR over Gostisbehere.

The alternatives have to make the situation as good or better. PT21's do not in my opinion.
It makes zero sense to buy out Gostisbehere when if he is not in your plans, he is a tradeable asset. Trading JVR would be far more difficult.

In my opinion, the league is going to meet with the NHLPA and negotiate the cap to stay the same. The bigger issue is escrow. If the season doesn't resume or if it's not played in full, the players are going to hurt by that this year. You also save 2M more in buying out JVR over Gostisbehere.

The alternatives have to make the situation as good or better. PT21's do not in my opinion.
It makes zero sense to buy out Gostisbehere when if he is not in your plans, he is a tradeable asset. Trading JVR would be far more difficult.
- MJL

Yes, buying out Ghost at his age and with his contract really makes no sense. JVR is most likely in the twilight of his career and is thus a more likely choice. Ideally, we get the season going again after a 2 month delay and deadline dates for contracts are pushed back in agreement with the NHL and NHLPA. Still a crap shoot, though, and no one really knows.

Admittedly, I don't really pay as much attention to the business details of hockey like many others here do. I read Bill and some of the posters here to learn more.

Yes, buying out Ghost at his age and with his contract really makes no sense. JVR is most likely in the twilight of his career and is thus a more likely choice. Ideally, we get the season going again after a 2 month delay and deadline dates for contracts are pushed back in agreement with the NHL and NHLPA. Still a crap shoot, though, and no one really knows.

Admittedly, I don't really pay as much attention to the business details of hockey like many others here do. I read Bill and some of the posters here to learn more.
- Letterkenney

I have to be honest. My gut feeling is that the season is not going to happen. I hope I'm wrong.

I have to be honest. My gut feeling is that the season is not going to happen. I hope I'm wrong.
- MJL

Regrettably, right now I think the same. We could begin to see dramatic reductions in new cases within 2 weeks, but even then, the contagiousness of this Chinese virus is just remarkable. I think it would take a month of everyone being quarantined before it would be safe to go back to normal, but that won't likely happen. And frankly, if it did happen and it did work, how many people would have $100+ for tickets to a hockey game? Damn, l think they could offer tickets for free and they wouldn't come close to filling 1/3 of the building. Frankly, I don't see a positive outcome in the short term and that makes the long term even more difficult for economic recovery. And that impact reaches deep and wide. All the workers at the arena. All the supply companies the support the arenas. It's going to be much more ugly than we can imagine right now. Things we think are extreme today will be normal in 2 weeks.

Regrettably, right now I think the same. We could begin to see dramatic reductions in new cases within 2 weeks, but even then, the contagiousness of this Chinese virus is just remarkable. I think it would take a month of everyone being quarantined before it would be safe to go back to normal, but that won't likely happen. And frankly, if it did happen and it did work, how many people would have $100+ for tickets to a hockey game? Damn, l think they could offer tickets for free and they wouldn't come close to filling 1/3 of the building. Frankly, I don't see a positive outcome in the short term and that makes the long term even more difficult for economic recovery. And that impact reaches deep and wide. All the workers at the arena. All the supply companies the support the arenas. It's going to be much more ugly than we can imagine right now. Things we think are extreme today will be normal in 2 weeks.
- Letterkenney

I'm fortunate that I'm not going to be impacted by this economically. My work is considered essential so I'm still working. That combined with bonuses and money from the stimulus means that I will make more money than I normally would. I'd give it all up if it meant that this thing would go away. All the money in the world cannot eliminate the stress I'm under worrying about catching this thing or bringing it home to my family. I can't help but feel for those who are going to become victim to this. Both medically and economically. My heart breaks for them. People can't even have funerals for their lost loved ones. It's just tragic and all anyone can hope for is to just make it through somehow. I can't at this time be saddened for the loss of hockey. It's just so small potatoes right now.

I'm fortunate that I'm not going to be impacted by this economically. My work is considered essential so I'm still working. That combined with bonuses and money from the stimulus means that I will make more money than I normally would. I'd give it all up if it meant that this thing would go away. All the money in the world cannot eliminate the stress I'm under worrying about catching this thing or bringing it home to my family. I can't help but feel for those who are going to become victim to this. Both medically and economically. My heart breaks for them. People can't even have funerals for their lost loved ones. It's just tragic and all anyone can hope for is to just make it through somehow. I can't at this time be saddened for the loss of hockey. It's just so small potatoes right now.
- MJL

In the grand scheme things, no question hockey is not very high on the priority list. I'm nervous because I do executive search on my own and a severe slowdown in hiring combined with a catastrophic drop in investment in new companies and start ups (90% of my customers) makes me wonder how I'm going to pay my bills starting in May or June time frame. It's the venture capital investment that pays my bills. So many knuckleheads that have no idea how the economy works rail against wealthy or investors, but I'm living proof that my living comes from those wealthy people that invest in startups who need to build their companies. Given the economic situation, that investment is going to substantially dry up. Pisses me off.

The debate is not that forward and scoring depth is not important which is what you're trying to establish here.
- MJL

No, that is not what I am establishing at all. The issue is the relative value of a goal scorer on the 3rd line versus a # 7 D for deep playoff runs.

Here is a list of the #7 D on the past 5 Stanley Cup winning teams, a quick comment about their status, and their cap hits (all figures in hundred thousands unless stated)


1. St. Louis: Robert Bortuzzo (solid D guy, CAP value AAV $1.15 million during cup run)

2. Caps: Jerabek and Djoos were #7 and # 6 respectively, both rookies, caps hits 925 and 700 odd respectively)

3. Pens (2016-17). Mark Streit played a couple of games but their real reserve Dman was Chad Ruhdewel. Very mediocre stats. His contract: 650k.

4. Pens (2015-16): Derek Pouliot. Almost always a - player. Played only 11 games for Pens that season. Cap hit: 863k

5. Hawks (2015-16). Stacked D with our Kimmo coming in. Three players played #7 role:

Kyle Kumiskey (very average guy, 600 k cap)
David Rundblad (played more than 20 games only twice in career, 900k that season cap)
Trevor Van Riemsdyk (rookie that year, undrafted, 925k)

If having very capable D being kept "on reserve" for injuries, or poor play by established D so that the # 7 guy could step in was so important for deep playoff runs , the facts I provide above completely and thoroughly refutes that.

Except the first name, the others on that list were marginal NHL defensemen in the cup winning years. Many were rookies. They had poor career stats, very low contracts.

I was wrong to suggest Sbisa/Del Zotto as #7s as acceptable for deep runs. They would actually be enormous upgrades in that roles

Regrettably, right now I think the same. We could begin to see dramatic reductions in new cases within 2 weeks, but even then, the contagiousness of this Chinese virus is just remarkable. I think it would take a month of everyone being quarantined before it would be safe to go back to normal, but that won't likely happen. And frankly, if it did happen and it did work, how many people would have $100+ for tickets to a hockey game? Damn, l think they could offer tickets for free and they wouldn't come close to filling 1/3 of the building. Frankly, I don't see a positive outcome in the short term and that makes the long term even more difficult for economic recovery. And that impact reaches deep and wide. All the workers at the arena. All the supply companies the support the arenas. It's going to be much more ugly than we can imagine right now. Things we think are extreme today will be normal in 2 weeks.
- Letterkenney

Will peak mid April to mid May. Restrictions probably start getting eased end May.

My worry is the second wave, which is likely to happen end summer/fall.

I'm fortunate that I'm not going to be impacted by this economically. My work is considered essential so I'm still working. That combined with bonuses and money from the stimulus means that I will make more money than I normally would. I'd give it all up if it meant that this thing would go away. All the money in the world cannot eliminate the stress I'm under worrying about catching this thing or bringing it home to my family. I can't help but feel for those who are going to become victim to this. Both medically and economically. My heart breaks for them. People can't even have funerals for their lost loved ones. It's just tragic and all anyone can hope for is to just make it through somehow. I can't at this time be saddened for the loss of hockey. It's just so small potatoes right now.
- MJL

It’s truly horrible. I’m retired from my day job and obviously all my gigs have been cancelled, but even going out for groceries is scary. My wife’s 94 year old high risk mom lives with us and she can’t afford to catch this thing.

I hope you and your family remain healthy and safe, that’s all that is really important right now.

In my opinion, the league is going to meet with the NHLPA and negotiate the cap to stay the same. The bigger issue is escrow. If the season doesn't resume or if it's not played in full, the players are going to hurt by that this year. You also save 2M more in buying out JVR over Gostisbehere.

The alternatives have to make the situation as good or better. PT21's do not in my opinion.
It makes zero sense to buy out Gostisbehere when if he is not in your plans, he is a tradeable asset. Trading JVR would be far more difficult.
- MJL

I will give you this part.

It’s truly horrible. I’m retired from my day job and obviously all my gigs have been cancelled, but even going out for groceries is scary. My wife’s 94 year old high risk mom lives with us and she can’t afford to catch this thing.

I hope you and your family remain healthy and safe, that’s all that is really important right now.
- BiggE

Why not have groceries be delivered?

No, that is not what I am establishing at all. The issue is the relative value of a goal scorer on the 3rd line versus a # 7 D for deep playoff runs.


- PT21

Incorrect. That is not what the issue is at all. That is what you're missing. You're assuming that Gostisbehere will be a #7 defenseman. The issue and I'll remind you since you're having an issue following along. Which player makes the most sense to buy out. That is JVR not Gostisbehere for all the reasons listed previously.

Here is a list of the #7 D on the past 5 Stanley Cup winning teams, a quick comment about their status, and their cap hits (all figures in hundred thousands unless stated)


1. St. Louis: Robert Bortuzzo (solid D guy, CAP value AAV $1.15 million during cup run)

2. Caps: Jerabek and Djoos were #7 and # 6 respectively, both rookies, caps hits 925 and 700 odd respectively)

3. Pens (2016-17). Mark Streit played a couple of games but their real reserve Dman was Chad Ruhdewel. Very mediocre stats. His contract: 650k.

4. Pens (2015-16): Derek Pouliot. Almost always a - player. Played only 11 games for Pens that season. Cap hit: 863k

5. Hawks (2015-16). Stacked D with our Kimmo coming in. Three players played #7 role:

Kyle Kumiskey (very average guy, 600 k cap)
David Rundblad (played more than 20 games only twice in career, 900k that season cap)
Trevor Van Riemsdyk (rookie that year, undrafted, 925k)

If having very capable D being kept "on reserve" for injuries, or poor play by established D so that the # 7 guy could step in was so important for deep playoff runs , the facts I provide above completely and thoroughly refutes that.

Except the first name, the others on that list were marginal NHL defensemen in the cup winning years. Many were rookies. They had poor career stats, very low contracts.


- PT21

All irrelevant to the question of who the better player is to buy out. What's relevant to the Flyers situation is that they have Farabee and Frost as potential viable replacements for JVR. That adds to the depth. There are not comparable players coming immediately defensively. If the Flyers in a playoff run were to suffer an injury to Niskanen, Provorov, Sanheim or Myers, Gostisbehere is a viable replacement in a top 4 role and gives the Flyers greater depth. The only situation that is relative here is the one the Flyers are in. We aren't looking at a 7th defenseman situation. We're looking at a top 4-6 situation. As well as all the other variable mentioned

You have not made a good case. Flyers have history where a lack of defensive depth has cost them greatly. You want to ignore that.

I was wrong to suggest Sbisa/Del Zotto as #7s as acceptable for deep runs. They would actually be enormous upgrades in that roles
- PT21

You were wrong and still are. You labeling them as upgrades over players that you just randomly picked who aren't even on the Flyers and aren't candidates for a buyout for the Flyers.

The more I interact with you the more I'm amazed at the lack of real insight. You continually attempt to rescue the sinking ships that are your opinion by going off on unrelated topics and avenues that have zero to do with the discussion.

It’s truly horrible. I’m retired from my day job and obviously all my gigs have been cancelled, but even going out for groceries is scary. My wife’s 94 year old high risk mom lives with us and she can’t afford to catch this thing.

I hope you and your family remain healthy and safe, that’s all that is really important right now.
- BiggE

Me too. My 77 year old post-stoke mother in law lives with us and I have a 22 year old now home with an 18 and 17 year old that lives with us. This is a huge concern of mine given the contagiousness of this Chinese Wuhan virus.

Hope all is well with you, Enjoy your posts, BiggE.

Edit: post stroke, not post stoke

It’s truly horrible. I’m retired from my day job and obviously all my gigs have been cancelled, but even going out for groceries is scary. My wife’s 94 year old high risk mom lives with us and she can’t afford to catch this thing.

I hope you and your family remain healthy and safe, that’s all that is really important right now.
- BiggE

Same to you and yours. I know how you and your Wife feel. My Mom and Dad live with me. Mom is 78 with COPD. Dad is 81, recovering from cancer surgery and radiation and has diabetes. If I bring this home and they get it, they're goners. I pretty much live in the basement when I'm not at work and stay as isolated from them as I can.

Same to you and yours. I know how you and your Wife feel. My Mom and Dad live with me. Mom is 78 with COPD. Dad is 81, recovering from cancer surgery and radiation and has diabetes. If I bring this home and they get it, they're goners. I pretty much live in the basement when I'm not at work and stay as isolated from them as I can.
- MJL

MJL, do you work in healthcare or with the public daily? If so, good for you staying away. It's f***ing hard to do.

MJL, do you work in healthcare or with the public daily? If so, good for you staying away. It's f***ing hard to do.
- Letterkenney

Not health care. God bless those people. I work in an industry that is connected to the banking industry.

Why not have groceries be delivered?
- PT21

We’re looking into that, but wife is terrified of anyone coming to the house.

We’re looking into that, but wife is terrified of anyone coming to the house.
- BiggE

You can get contactless delivery from many stores. And for elderly, delivery is free.

Incorrect. That is not what the issue is at all. That is what you're missing. You're assuming that Gostisbehere will be a #7 defenseman. The issue and I'll remind you since you're having an issue following along. Which player makes the most sense to buy out. That is JVR not Gostisbehere for all the reasons listed previously.




All irrelevant to the question of who the better player is to buy out. What's relevant to the Flyers situation is that they have Farabee and Frost as potential viable replacements for JVR. That adds to the depth. There are not comparable players coming immediately defensively. If the Flyers in a playoff run were to suffer an injury to Niskanen, Provorov, Sanheim or Myers, Gostisbehere is a viable replacement in a top 4 role and gives the Flyers greater depth. The only situation that is relative here is the one the Flyers are in. We aren't looking at a 7th defenseman situation. We're looking at a top 4-6 situation. As well as all the other variable mentioned

You have not made a good case.



You were wrong and still are. You labeling them as upgrades over players that you just randomly picked who aren't even on the Flyers and aren't candidates for a buyout for the Flyers.

The more I interact with you the more I'm amazed at the lack of real insight. You continually attempt to rescue the sinking ships that are your opinion by going off on unrelated topics and avenues that have zero to do with the discussion.
- MJL

1. I was fairly clear from the outset that *my perspective* was that we have a limited window to make a run with current team, and I visited the buyout purely from the perspective of maximizing cup chances. Purely that. This was my very first post. If we did not have a contending team, I have no issue at all with JVR over Ghost for the compliance buyout.

2. The seventh D is the guy who first comes in as a D-replacement but does not start. Does not matter which position he plays once he is in. Ghost is that guy now, period.

3. They were upgrades over players who played precisely the role Ghost would very likely play in a playoff run, and that too in teams who made the deepest run of all in the respective years. so, very,very far from a random sample. It completely refutes the argument that teams need lots of talented D because they are needed in long runs.

4. The reason you think I veer off tangentially is frankly because you cannot follow discussions that go beyond a hammer and anvil, with you the hammer, and which involve discussions in any depth. You lose track, get very confused, and start asserting your opinion as obvious, and valid steps in the argument as irrelevant or strawmen.

Having said that, its a nice distraction to jaw with you on these slow days from hell. Take care and stay well.

We’re looking into that, but wife is terrified of anyone coming to the house.
- BiggE

No, no need to come to the house. Here is what we do. Ask them to call. If you have a problem giving out your phone, install a wireless buzzer at door/gate - they are very cheap and install in 2 mins.

Then, either tell them over phone when they call (or leave a note on the door/gate to ring) to leave the stuff at door/gate and go away. You watch from a distance, or from inside. Once they are safely gone, you pick up.

Put away cardboard/plastic etc containers in a place. Don't touch for at least 3 days. Put other stuff away, washing veggies, wiping cans/boxes with alcohol at least 60% proof. Be very careful to not touch hands/face during this process.

Wash hands. Disinfect door handles, and any other surfaces you have touched.

You can get contactless delivery from many stores. And for elderly, delivery is free.
- Letterkenney

Thanks for the info!

No, no need to come to the house. Here is what we do. Ask them to call. If you have a problem giving out your phone, install a wireless buzzer at door/gate - they are very cheap and install in 2 mins.

Then, either tell them over phone when they call (or leave a note on the door/gate to ring) to leave the stuff at door/gate and go away. You watch from a distance, or from inside. Once they are safely gone, you pick up.

Put away cardboard/plastic etc containers in a place. Don't touch for at least 3 days. Put other stuff away, washing veggies, wiping cans/boxes with alcohol at least 60% proof. Be very careful to not touch hands/face during this process.

Wash hands. Disinfect door handles, and any other surfaces you have touched.
- PT21

Thank you!

1. I was fairly clear from the outset that *my perspective* was that we have a limited window to make a run with current team, and I visited the buyout purely from the perspective of maximizing cup chances. Purely that. This was my very first post. If we did not have a contending team, I have no issue at all with JVR over Ghost for the compliance buyout.


- PT21

I'm aware of that perspective. Not the only factor to consider here. I want to have a contending team for more than one year. Getting out of the JVR contract would be a really good thing for the Flyers. In my opinion his role will be further and further reduced as more young talent comes in.

2. The seventh D is the guy who first comes in as a D-replacement but does not start. Does not matter which position he plays once he is in. Ghost is that guy now, period.


- PT21

Gostisbehere was not that guy the majority of the season before his injury. They currently aren't playing. You're assuming that if and when they resume play that Gostisbehere will remain the 7th defenseman.

3. They were upgrades over players who played precisely the role Ghost would very likely play in a playoff run, and that too in teams who made the deepest run of all in the respective years. so, very,very far from a random sample. It completely refutes the argument that teams need lots of talented D because they are needed in long runs.


- PT21

Absolutely it was a random sample. Those teams didn't have the injuries and didn't need the depth. They didn't play for the Flyers at any time. It's a well established fact that teams like to have defensive depth for playoff runs. You ignore conventional wisdom and fail to realize that if those teams had a choice and didn't have cap restraints, they likely would've improved that situation. Regardless each team is different. We're talking about the Flyers pick for a buyout. Defensive depth for a playoff run is just one factor.

4. The reason you think I veer off tangentially is frankly because you cannot follow discussions that go beyond a hammer and anvil, with you the hammer, and which involve discussions in any depth. You lose track, get very confused, and start asserting your opinion as obvious, and valid steps in the argument as irrelevant or strawmen.


- PT21

Exactly what they are. Strawman and irrelevant to the situation and the context. Nothing to do with the Flyers and their situation. You can say anything you want about what I do but I've been running circles around you and burying your uninformed opinions. At least you haven't given raft analogies. That's progress.

I get confused. You can do better than that. LOL

Having said that, its a nice distraction to jaw with you on these slow days from hell. Take care and stay well.
- PT21

Same to you.

My two cents.

You buy out JVR.

If all the defensemen on the team are playing well, the 7th defenseman is Robert Hagg, not Gostisbehere.