I'll agree to disagree.
Doesn't mean I think Girgs and Larsson are bad either.
I would invest that money elsewhere, improve the top 9 to relegate the 4th line to less responsibilities.
I feel as strongly that your idea is bad.
- IonSabres

Well if we can get the personnel to have a strong 2way line (or 2) in the top9,
the. We don’t need that defensive checking line that we have now

But until we get the right personnel,
we do need the LOG line

Not necessarily directed out you 36 since I don’t know your stance on what I’m about to say.

I find it hilarious that it’s ok to “overpay” a redundant scoring line winger in Skinner but when it comes time to pay important depth it’s “all about the money”
- Pegullaville

A guy that can score 40goals is hardly redundant

Guys like Vesey are

Not necessarily directed out you 36 since I don’t know your stance on what I’m about to say.

I find it hilarious that it’s ok to “overpay” a redundant scoring line winger in Skinner but when it comes time to pay important depth it’s “all about the money”
- Pegullaville

The problem isn't just Skinner.
The problem is the contracts for Skinner, Okposso and Mojo put the team behind the 8-ball by about $6.5m.
Spending more on 4th line players isn't where I'd invest.

It is also why I'd think long and hard about paying Sam more than$7.0, which he likely will get.
A GM simply cannot think about each player/position in a vacuum, but must consider the entirity of the roster it us easy to just pay every player $500k or $1.0m more ... bad contracts impact other roster decisions.

I’m also not getting into a bidding war & paying them $3mil each either

I’m talking about signing them to a reasonable deal
- jdfitz77

That's what I am thinking, if you can get them both signed for 2 mill or less then do it, but I am not trying to outbid other teams

A guy that can score 40goals is hardly redundant

Guys like Vesey are
- jdfitz77

The guy scored 40 once, in a contract year, shooting an unattainable scoring percentage, with a superstar.

He will never put up those numbers again and is declining every year from here on out.

We would have picked top 10 with or without Skinner, and could have rode Olofsson, Kahun, Mojo down the left side and used the additional cap space on goaltending, the Center Position, or to use as wiggle room when we resign our core.

The problem isn't just Skinner.
The problem is the contracts for Skinner, Okposso and Mojo put the team behind the 8-ball by about $6.5m.
Spending more on 4th line players isn't where I'd invest.

It is also why I'd think long and hard about paying Sam more than$7.0, which he likely will get.
A GM simply cannot think about each player/position in a vacuum, but must consider the entirity of the roster it us easy to just pay every player $500k or $1.0m more ... bad contracts impact other roster decisions.
- IonSabres

Sure
But at the same time, u don’t wanna lose productive players over 500k or $1mil either
Gotta find that balance

Not necessarily directed out you 36 since I don’t know your stance on what I’m about to say.

I find it hilarious that it’s ok to “overpay” a redundant scoring line winger in Skinner but when it comes time to pay important depth it’s “all about the money”
- Pegullaville

Well Pegs I think you have read enough of my post about what I think of Skinner, and I say it's all about the money because of that. But we are stuck with that so I am done talking about that.

The guy scored 40 once, in a contract year, shooting an unattainable scoring percentage, with a superstar.

He will never put up those numbers again and is declining every year from here on out.

We would have picked top 10 with or without Skinner, and could have rode Olofsson, Kahun, Mojo down the left side and used the additional cap space on goaltending, the Center Position, or to use as wiggle room when we resign our core.
- Pegullaville

If i remember correctly,
u said the same thing about ROR being in decline,
And then he went & won the Conn Smythe

Let’s put Skinner back with Jack & see what happens before we just assume he’s going to “decline” every year from here out

Well if we can get the personnel to have a strong 2way line (or 2) in the top9,
the. We don’t need that defensive checking line that we have now

But until we get the right personnel,
we do need the LOG line
- jdfitz77

Exactly. But continuing to over spend on 4th liners doesn't get you there anytime soon.
Sabres have a chance this offseason to reconstitute the roster rather significantly.
I'll be pissed if Botts doesn't take full advantage, and again plays it safe with resigning Gs like this.
I think Ghofrani has the right idea.

Exactly. But continuing to over spend on 4th liners doesn't get you there anytime soon.
Sabres have a chance this offseason to reconstitute the roster rather significantly.
I'll be pissed if Botts doesn't take full advantage, and again plays it safe with resigning Gs like this.
I think Ghofrani has the right idea.
- IonSabres

U really think signing Girgs to a $2mil per deal instead of Lazar’s $1mil is gonna stop us from trading for a 2C if we can?
I doubt it

I get your overall point
But i don’t see how it applies here

And like i said before...
to just refer to them as 4th liners just shows u not giving them credit for the great job they do against other teams’ top lines

Well Pegs I think you have read enough of my post about what I think of Skinner, and I say it's all about the money because of that. But we are stuck with that so I am done talking about that.
- Buff36

What's frustrating is that the evidence for Skinnsrs high productivity with Jack was there to see...82 games of it.
More frustrating is Olofsson looked pretty good with Kahun and Mojo...meaning perhaps he could have produced on L2 with someone else.
But it was never seriously tried until Kahun came..then 2 games(small sample) he looked good.
Begs the question of how much would have changed by switching Skinner and Olo...could have been a major failure, a major hit, or meh...why it wasn't tried...?

What's frustrating is that the evidence for Skinnsrs high productivity with Jack was there to see...82 games of it.
More frustrating is Olofsson looked pretty good with Kahun and Mojo...meaning perhaps he could have produced on L2 with someone else.
But it was never seriously tried until Kahun came..then 2 games(small sample) he looked good.
Begs the question of how much would have changed by switching Skinner and Olo...could have been a major failure, a major hit, or meh...why it wasn't tried...?
- IonSabres

Good point
I get trying to spread out the scoring,
but when that wasn’t working Skinner should’ve been put back with Jack

U really think signing Girgs to a $2mil per deal instead of Lazar’s $1mil is gonna stop us from trading for a 2C if we can?
I doubt it

I get your overall point
But i don’t see how it applies here

And like i said before...
to just refer to them as 4th liners just shows u not giving them credit for the great job they do against other teams’ top lines
- jdfitz77

2 weeks ago there was support for Girgs and Larry at $2.75 and $3.0.
If the Cap stays the same or goes down from what was projected as $84m cap, well, then certain contracts have to go down...and it isn't your top producers who will take the hit...so it has to come from someplace.
This is much more about having $6.5+/- currently wasted that could be your 2C than it is about Larssons market value...it is his value to a badly constructed roster that needs to be overhauled...and some really tough decisions.
I perceive the Value of play for 11 TOI between Larzar and Larsson as relatively negligible.

You see it differently.

If i remember correctly,
u said the same thing about ROR being in decline,
And then he went & won the Conn Smythe

Let’s put Skinner back with Jack & see what happens before we just assume he’s going to “decline” every year from here out
- jdfitz77

No you’re exactly right, I said ROR had 2 good seasons left in him, then he happened to win a cup in St.Louis which worked out for the player and the team.

2 weeks ago there was support for Girgs and Larry at $2.75 and $3.0.
If the Cap stays the same or goes down from what was projected as $84m cap, well, then certain contracts have to go down...and it isn't your top producers who will take the hit...so it has to come from someplace.
This is much more about having $6.5+/- currently wasted that could be your 2C than it is about Larssons market value...it is his value to a badly constructed roster that needs to be overhauled...and some really tough decisions.
I perceive the Value of play for 11 TOI between Larzar and Larsson as relatively negligible.

You see it differently.
- IonSabres

MUCH DIFFERENTLY

I just don’t get how ppl don’t see how important of a role they play?

No you’re exactly right, I said ROR had 2 good seasons left in him, then he happened to win a cup in St.Louis which worked out for the player and the team.
- Pegullaville

U also said part way through last season that he was “already declining”
Then he won Playoff mvp

Just saying

ROR would have been a perfect trade know, not when it happened, we didn't have the horses when that trade was made.

MUCH DIFFERENTLY

I just don’t get how ppl don’t see how important of a role they play?
- jdfitz77

I see the value in D Forwards.
I just rank that value far differently than you do.

So, if we think of a company of 12, where the competitors are paying their top 7 or 8 players who produce more a higher wage, We have to compete.
While I think employees 10, 11, 12 are ok-good based on a number of criteria, not just 1; then I may choose to replace those guys with cheaper guys while I focus on upgrading employees 5 - 9.

In other words, their defensive acumen doesn't offset the needed increase in productivity. I'm willing to give some of that up, knowing it will be missed, but bound and determined to improve in other areas where the competition is eating my lunch right now.

U also said part way through last season that he was “already declining”
Then he won Playoff mvp

Just saying
- jdfitz77

He had a great Cup Final, we’ll just leave it at that. There was a lot of recency bias in the awarding of that award.

Sportsnet loved ripping on him the first few weeks of the playoffs though, especially when he got relegated off the top line and they moved Brayden Schenn to 1C.

But they won the cup, and that is ultimately what matters.

I see the value in D Forwards.
I just rank that value far differently than you do.

So, if we think of a company of 12, where the competitors are paying their top 7 or 8 players who produce more a higher wage, We have to compete.
While I think employees 10, 11, 12 are ok-good based on a number of criteria, not just 1; then I may choose to replace those guys with cheaper guys while I focus on upgrading employees 5 - 9.

In other words, their defensive acumen doesn't offset the needed increase in productivity. I'm willing to give some of that up, knowing it will be missed, but bound and determined to improve in other areas where the competition is eating my lunch right now.
- IonSabres

At the risk of competition eating our lunch in the important situations they defend

And again...
the 1mil that makes a difference for that checking line, won’t matter much at all when trying to go from say Vesey to someone that can score 25goals

He had a great Cup Final, we’ll just leave it at that. There was a lot of recency bias in the awarding of that award.

Sportsnet loved ripping on him the first few weeks of the playoffs though, especially when he got relegated off the top line and they moved Brayden Schenn to 1C.

But they won the cup, and that is ultimately what matters.
- Pegullaville

When he was playing injured

Regardless, u totally missed the point i was making

Well if u look at it logically...

Let’s say u have 3 scoring lines

- jdfitz77

that will fall on casey cozens and tage IMO

Homie isn’t a boomer.

Gen x is 1964-1979

He as well as I fall in there.
- dadeadhead

Anyone who's older is automatically a boomer regardless of their actual age.

that will fall on casey cozens and tage IMO
- homiedclown

What will?

Being a 3rd scoring line?
Or
Taking on defensive responsibility

What will?

Being a 3rd scoring line?
Or
Taking on a defensive responsibility
- jdfitz77

having 3 scoring lines