If you put prime Gretzky in the league today, I still think he puts up 170 points regularly.
- Shrike

I disagree. 80s goaltending hadn't caught up to 80s offensive capabilities. Goalies are up to speed now. Gretzky would still be a top scorer but it'd be a challenge to get 100 points.

imho

I disagree. 80s goaltending hadn't caught up to 80s offensive capabilities. Goalies are up to speed now. Gretzky would still be a top scorer but it'd be a challenge to get 100 points.

imho
- Scoob

I agree with this to a point.

People always mention the goalies and the era. But Gretzky was winning scoring titles by 60, 70, 80 points over the next closest player.

That is an extremely large gap. And shows that while yes the era was different, he was still significantly better than everyone else.

[quote=Pompous]
In that ASTOUNDING YEAR OF 70/71, HE WAS ON THE ICE FOR FIFTEEN GOALS, FIFTEEN.
That averages out to a goal every fifth game or so.

That is ridiculous!

LOL. Prime Bobby Orr was regularly among the top 3 or so in scoring as a defenseman among a group of forwards. Prime Orr was a game changer with unbelievable skill who changed how the game is played.
- MJL

Bobby Orr was a game changer. I saw both in their prime. For my money, it's Orr he totally changed the way the position was played. I live in SoCal and watched Gretz a bunch including some games at the Forum, as an Oiler and as a King. Gretzky did not change how the game was played.

Hmmm...there was this guy named Messier, who won a couple of Cups without Gretzky but Gretzky won none without him.

Bobby Orr was a game changer. I saw both in their prime. For my money, it's Orr he totally changed the way the position was played. I live in SoCal and watched Gretz a bunch including some games at the Forum, as an Oiler and as a King. Gretzky did not change how the game was played.

Hmmm...there was this guy named Messier, who won a couple of Cups without Gretzky but Gretzky won none without him.
- wbtravis

Gretzky is the greatest player ever in my opinion. Messier was great but is not in that conversation. Gretzky did things on the ice that nobody else could do so in that regard, he did change the game.

Prime Bobby Orr was one of the NHL's best shutdown defensemen on top of being an offensive force on par with the very best forwards.

He had no peer. He is the best defenseman in NHL history.
- bmeltzer

Agreed. An argument can be made that Orr is the best player of all time.

I think Nick Lidstrom would be close to unanimous as the second best dman of all time.

I agree with this to a point.

People always mention the goalies and the era. But Gretzky was winning scoring titles by 60, 70, 80 points over the next closest player.

That is an extremely large gap. And shows that while yes the era was different, he was still significantly better than everyone else.
- MBFlyerfan

That's undeniable. I just think there are some factors with today's players and today's game that would significantly close that gap.

That's undeniable. I just think there are some factors with today's players and today's game that would significantly close that gap.
- Scoob

That I can definitely agree with.

LOL. Prime Bobby Orr was regularly among the top 3 or so in scoring as a defenseman among a group of forwards. Prime Orr was a game changer with unbelievable skill who changed how the game is played.
- MJL

I'm old enough and grew up in North Jersey, so I saw Orr play live in the Garden. Gretzky was amazing. Can't argue that at all. My list will remain
Orr
Gretzky
Mario
Jagr
Mess
Fav all time is Bossy. Still holds record for goals per game. Only player with nine str8 to plus goal seasons.

That's undeniable. I just think there are some factors with today's players and today's game that would significantly close that gap.
- Scoob

I see it differently. Gretzky had the unbelievable ability to see plays develop before they did. As those who played with him often said, he knew where you were going before you did. While he didn't have blinding straight forward speed, he was elusive and quick. Teams tried to play him physically but they couldn't catch him. In today's game with the lack of hooking and interference, along with no red line, I think he would be just as far ahead of the pack today. I think the total number would be down. But the distance between him and the next guy would still be significant.

I see it differently. Gretzky had the unbelievable ability to see plays develop before they did. As those who played with him often said, he knew where you were going before you did. While he didn't have blinding straight forward speed, he was elusive and quick. Teams tried to play him physically but they couldn't catch him. In today's game with the lack of hooking and interference, along with no red line, I think he would be just as far ahead of the pack today. I think the total number would be down. But the distance between him and the next guy would still be significant.
- MJL

I think the point he was making, and I agree, was that he wouldn't be winning scoring titles by 70 points every year.

I think the point he was making, and I agree, was that he wouldn't be winning scoring titles by 70 points every year.
- MBFlyerfan

I understand that. I still think the gap would be substantial. Maybe not 70 but a 50 point difference. I don't think you can score 200 points anymore but 150-160 I can see Gretzky piling up.

I know we're not allowed to say anything nice about the Pens, but Mario would be the best player on the ice in ANY era. A supreme combination of pure hockey instinct, talent, work ethic, determination, leadership and tools all wrapped up in a 6'4/230 body.

IMO, nobody comes close to him, all due respect to Wayne/Bobby/Gordie.

I know we're not allowed to say anything nice about the Pens, but Mario would be the best player on the ice in ANY era. A supreme combination of pure hockey instinct, talent, work ethic, determination, leadership and tools all wrapped up in a 6'4/230 body.

IMO, nobody comes close to him, all due respect to Wayne/Bobby/Gordie.
- Tomahawk

I have no issue with anyone saying Mario was the best but to say that nobody comes close? That's just not real.

I have no issue with anyone saying Mario was the best but to say that nobody comes close? That's just not real.
- MJL

He was beating #99 in the scoring race by 20-30 point margins when Wayne was still in his prime, tho.

I know we're not allowed to say anything nice about the Pens, but Mario would be the best player on the ice in ANY era. A supreme combination of pure hockey instinct, talent, work ethic, determination, leadership and tools all wrapped up in a 6'4/230 body.

IMO, nobody comes close to him, all due respect to Wayne/Bobby/Gordie.
- Tomahawk

Speaking of, NBCSN has some pens/flyers coverage from 2012 on now.

Goddamn traumatic stuff. Also, absolutely insane how thats eight years ago now. Jesus.

Sometimes just a few words puts everything in perspective.

He was beating #99 in the scoring race by 20-30 point margins when Wayne was still in his prime, tho.
- Tomahawk

Wayne was past his prime then and you know that. Look at the numbers.

It only happened one year.

Social distancing scoreboard across the USA

(Using cellphone GPS data, which places are the best and which the worst.



https://www.unacast.com/c...ial-distancing-scoreboard

Wayne was past his prime then and you know that. Look at the numbers.

It only happened one year.
- MJL

87-88 Wayne was 27, Mario was 22, Mario won the scoring race by 19 pts.
88-89 Wayne was 28, Mario was 23, Mario won the scoring race by 31 pts.

Honestly don't think Wayne would have won another Art Ross after '87 if Mario hadn't missed so many games.

87-88 Wayne was 27, Mario was 22, Mario won the scoring race by 19 pts.
88-89 Wayne was 28, Mario was 23, Mario won the scoring race by 31 pts.

Honestly don't think Wayne would have won another Art Ross after '87 if Mario hadn't missed so many games.
- Tomahawk

What are you missing? I'll give you a chance. Irony is good though.

I understand that. I still think the gap would be substantial. Maybe not 70 but a 50 point difference. I don't think you can score 200 points anymore but 150-160 I can see Gretzky piling up.
- MJL

I don’t. The game isn’t as wide open and coaching staff have strategy down to a science. Not to mention fitness if committed is the best it’s ever been. I’ll say 120-130 but not 150, not 200 points.

Top scoring players in the league such as Draisatl, McDavid, and Pasternak were on pace to score around the 120 point range this year. None of them are on par with Gretzky.

I know we're not allowed to say anything nice about the Pens, but Mario would be the best player on the ice in ANY era. A supreme combination of pure hockey instinct, talent, work ethic, determination, leadership and tools all wrapped up in a 6'4/230 body.

IMO, nobody comes close to him, all due respect to Wayne/Bobby/Gordie.
- Tomahawk

Maybe a homer comment, but if you drop Lindros into any other era he is a man among boys...he stood out in the clutch and grab era..imagine him playing in the 70s or even today. Like every sport, things have advanced so much it is almost impossible to do an apples to apples comparison (although fun none the less)...heck the goalie equipment is so much larger, today that could affect point totals for some of these guys.

I think MJL's comment about hockey smarts is what made 99 standout. I remember watching a video years ago where he would talk about tracing on a board where the puck would go and studying that. He was a great hockey mind, before those existed at the player level. I think you also have to remember, sports "fitness" didn't exist back them...just read Kieth Jones honest assessment of the level of fitness it took to reach the NHL, and that is not in the too distant past. 99 was in shape and smarter then most of the guys on the ice...his advanced skill level was the kicker.

What are you missing? I'll give you a chance. Irony is good though.
- MJL

So basically the only season they were both young and healthy at the same time, Mario beat him by 31 pts.

Wayne's on record saying that Mario could think the game as well as he could, pass as well as he could, but his shot was better than his. Up there w/ Bossy and Hull.

Imagine Mario starting his career in the early-80s with all those great Oilers teammates and a modicum of health... he'd be the one owning the record books I think.