I agree the Canes went next level in terms of effort but Keefe and Marner used words like "embarrassment" and "dogpoop" to describe the leaf performance.

So it's either dogpoop effort or dogpoop ability. Personally I think it's a bit of both. Experience helps with that "effort" variable and the Leafs lack some of that. And the blue line is just so thin right now that the "ability" has got to be a factor. Sandin, Holl, Marincin and Dermott all being asked for too much.
- The Law

When marner toe picked himself on the powerplay you knew it was a rough night.

Canes played like they had no goalie. Played with a lot of urgency and leafs didn’t match it.

Good lord,

If you think we are idiots here, the people calling in to the Fan590 are all suggesting we trade Marner.

I believe there is something wrong in that room. I have no idea what it is. I seriously doubt it is a single player somehow bringing down the whole team and if it is, I would be surprised to hear it was Marner. Yeah, he is overpaid and yeah he is in a funk and was horrible apparently on Saturday. It just seems like a huge leap to conclude that the problem will be corrected by trading him.

I would still point the finger at the coach or even at the captain, before pointing it at Marner.
- Aetherial

Only in Toronto do superstars get 3 years to "figure it out". Maybe Montreal too.

The Crosby's and Roy's of the world are rare ....guys that have that elite compete level as teenagers.

My biggest take away was how well the Canes shut down the Leafs, they really came together and put in an effort to give the Leafs almost nothing.

As much as we can say why dont the leafs just shoot, they were given nothing, an amazing job by the canes. They wanted to win for the goalie. Sometimes its not just that the Leafs gave up or didnt try, there are 2 teams out there.
- senstroll

No question, some times you need to tip your hat to the other team.

I don't think that entirely explains Saturday though. It is pretty tough to escape the conclusion that this team has something fundamentally wrong.

My biggest take away was how well the Canes shut down the Leafs, they really came together and put in an effort to give the Leafs almost nothing.

As much as we can say why dont the leafs just shoot, they were given nothing, an amazing job by the canes. They wanted to win for the goalie. Sometimes its not just that the Leafs gave up or didnt try, there are 2 teams out there.
- senstroll

And this superstar offensive "stanley cup contender" got shut down easily. Again.
It doesnt take much to knock this team off their game, they can only play one way.

We'll see which team shows up in the last 19 games or so.

Good move, and I did the same. Raw sewage like Spatso, seem to hang around after a Leaf loss - particularly a stinker like the one on Saturday. The loss was a team effort, goalie was terrible, coach was terrible, Marner may have played his worst game as a Leaf. His attempt at the dog-paddle during an important power play was particularly disgusting.
- winsix

Only reason the Leafs didn't lose by 20 was the goalie.

So interesting day in Leaf land. Buy, sell, sit tight ....?
- The Law

Trade Barrie johnsson and bracco and see what that gets you.

Only in Toronto do superstars get 3 years to "figure it out". Maybe Montreal too.

The Crosby's and Roy's of the world are rare ....guys that have that elite compete level as teenagers.
- The Law

Ovechkin got over 10 years. LOL. It's really not the end of the world Leafs have not had success yet.

And people are very patient with Eichel and Barkov never seeing the playoffs.

Only in Toronto do superstars get 3 years to "figure it out". Maybe Montreal too.

The Crosby's and Roy's of the world are rare ....guys that have that elite compete level as teenagers.
- The Law

Well, Crosby took 4 to get his. He's also generational talent; I don't consider our 4 to be, with an outside chance of Matthews becoming one.

Trade Barrie johnsson and bracco and see what that gets you.
- bryant

Can't trade Bracco he has less than 0 value right now. Wedgie posted here yesterday that he was off for personal reasons... is there substance abuse there perhaps? He needs to figure it out if it is, or his career will be done.

My biggest take away was how well the Canes shut down the Leafs, they really came together and put in an effort to give the Leafs almost nothing.

As much as we can say why dont the leafs just shoot, they were given nothing, an amazing job by the canes. They wanted to win for the goalie. Sometimes its not just that the Leafs gave up or didnt try, there are 2 teams out there.
- senstroll

The problem with that is that this type of game that the Canes played is contradictory to the position that the composition of the Leafs can be successful in the "new" NHL. Effectively, the Leafs have been built with speed and to possess the puck and block lanes without getting out of position or overly physical - because it's not necessary.

Now, if obstruction has been largely removed from the game, then how did Carolina shut down Toronto? Carolina read plays, they closed gaps, they played tight to the Leaf player; while there was your standard level of interference or minor obstruction, there was nothing too overt.

Simply: The Leafs couldn't make a pass. They didn't skate. They stopped playing a team game. They stopped supporting each other. They looked like they gave up to a person.

Carolina deserves credit for playing a great game. The Leafs deserve all the admonishment and condemnation they receive. They collapsed in on themselves, and it was pathetic to see. This is not the first time that Carolina's persistent and aggressive forecheck has caused the Leafs to wither.

It's a great system, but you beat it by effectively counter punching - get in position, support each other, take the hit to make the pass and make that second outlet pass to trap the forecheckers in deep. The Leafs did none of that.

Agree on the D. Holl and Dermott seems to really struggle as they get more responsibility.

I dont know how, but get Reilly back and get 2 more Legit NHL D to push everyone down a bit. Its rielly/muzzin, Sandin/Lily as the keepers.... and 2 huge upgrades as a min. which means 2 RHD
- senstroll

Agreed. I think they began the year short of 1 top 4 D and then Rielly drops so they're missing 50 minutes per night of top pair defending.

Marner is 22 and scored 94 points last year and is on a 96 point pace. And if you compare his production his contrcat looks better than Rantanen's.

Trade the bum!!!!

Well, Crosby took 4 to get his. He's also generational talent; I don't consider our 4 to be, with an outside chance of Matthews becoming one.
- gravyface

Matthews definitely could be. I think he needs a few thing though

1) Be the captain. Too bad his stupidity this summer may have cost him that
2) Learn to put in the effort on a more regular basis.
3) Play for a different team. I have never believed he really wanted to be here.

Trade Barrie johnsson and bracco and see what that gets you.
- bryant

Johnsson's out until August he isn't getting traded.

And Bracco hasn't played in weeks ..not sure why.

Barrie, yes.

Agree on the D. Holl and Dermott seems to really struggle as they get more responsibility.

I dont know how, but get Reilly back and get 2 more Legit NHL D to push everyone down a bit. Its rielly/muzzin, Sandin/Lily as the keepers.... and 2 huge upgrades as a min. which means 2 RHD
- senstroll

That's been the Leafs issues. Giving guys on D like Gardiner, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Holl too many minutes. They can be good in supporting roles, but get exposed with too many.

Johnsson's out until August he isn't getting traded.

And Bracco hasn't played in weeks ..not sure why.

Barrie, yes.
- The Law

Wouldn't be an overly bad move for a team that is out of it.

That way he doesn't play with them this season and maybe help ruin their draft position.

Byfuglein not playing this year. Andy Strickland just confirmed.

Media already saying Babcock shouldn;'t have been fired> BUHAHAHA.

Byfuglein not playing this year. Andy Strickland just confirmed.
- bryant

Question probably is, will he play again?

Really (frank)ed up the Jets this season.

Media already saying Babcock shouldn;'t have been fired> BUHAHAHA.
- RogerRoeper

He was a problem, but it is clear he wasn't the whole problem.

Question probably is, will he play again?

Really (frank)ed up the Jets this season.
- Scabeh

just a bizarre situation all the way around

Months ago I began to think that the best option for the Leafs was to go all in on a mega deal for an elite defender who plays a strong game at both ends of the ice (eg., Doughty). It would mean moving out an elite, high priced player like Marner or Nylander for a fit under the CAP requirements.

I am now convinced that Dubas is incapable of doing this kind of deal. He does not seem to grasp intangible team values. For example, right from day one, many of us squawked about the insanity of the Kadri trade. In that deal, the Leafs gave up character, heart, physicality. Kadri enabled every player in the line up to play a stronger game.

Most Leaf fans have come around to understand the failure. Dubas does not get it.
- spatso

I love how you think making a move for Doughty is so easy. The way Doughty looks and his deal I don't think he's worth Marner.
And Kadri hurt the team so bad in the playoffs. let's not forget that. He also hasn't looked that good the past 2 years and is almost 30

Marner is 22 and scored 94 points last year and is on a 96 point pace. And if you compare his production his contrcat looks better than Rantanen's.

Trade the bum!!!!
- RogerRoeper

Marner is -5 at Even Strength.

He has had a bad season. He is not working as hard as he did last year and his defensive awareness has left him far too often this year. Teams are recognizing that the Leafs' offense is largely driven by Marner getting and distributing the puck, and they key in on him and they take away his time and space - and he hasn't adapted well yet. I have faith that he'll make the necessary adjustments, but right now he's a negative player at 5v5 play, and it shows.

Marner is 22 and scored 94 points last year and is on a 96 point pace. And if you compare his production his contrcat looks better than Rantanen's.

Trade the bum!!!!
- RogerRoeper

I love Marner. However, I would love a young franchise stud d-man. It’s not a question of thinking Marner’s a bum. It’s a question of how are we going to get a top d-man? I would rather keep AM and MM if you could swing Willie for the d-man. Then again, MM makes almost 3 million more and cap space is important...

Our ‘team’ is a mess...

I love Marner. However, I would love a young franchise stud d-man. It’s not a question of thinking Marner’s a bum. It’s a question of how are we going to get a top d-man? I would rather keep AM and MM if you could swing Willie for the d-man. Then again, MM makes almost 3 million more and cap space is important...

Our ‘team’ is a mess...
- Hockey_Reverend

But they are not available.

This team is in the playoffs. It's not a mess at all.