inevitable, but not unexpected. not a good argument really. that's like saying "I'm going to hit that post if I continue this path" and the solution is to slow down, instead of turning and going in a different direction.

Also, to say that those players you listed made the team "special", when he brought in none of them (except Hossa), is a bad argument for SB.
- squishy24

So you are saying that instead of trading players he did not originally bring in, he recognized these players were special and decided to build around them makes him a bad gm?

inevitable, but not unexpected. not a good argument really. that's like saying "I'm going to hit that post if I continue this path" and the solution is to slow down, instead of turning and going in a different direction.

Also, to say that those players you listed made the team "special", when he brought in none of them (except Hossa), is a bad argument for SB.
- squishy24

Lol thanks Squish

Their are a lot of Gm’s who have done nothing,won nothing,not drafted well and still have there jobs.Maybe I’m alone,but Bowman has made some mistakes, but I want to keep him.

inevitable, but not unexpected. not a good argument really. that's like saying "I'm going to hit that post if I continue this path" and the solution is to slow down, instead of turning and going in a different direction.

Also, to say that those players you listed made the team "special", when he brought in none of them (except Hossa), is a bad argument for SB.
- squishy24

Huh?

He did identify them as the ones to keep after the fiasco of 2010 cap dump. So yeah, he gets credit. He then didn't panic after the debacle of 2012 in order to keep them together to go on to win 2 Cups in 3 years and a toss up Game 7 against the Kings to 3 Cups in 3 years. He also had to dismantle some of the 13 team after the new CBA forced him back into cap hell.

He is getting another year to turn this around whether anyone likes it or not. This TDL and off-season will determin if he sticks around longer.

So you are saying that instead of trading players he did not originally bring in, he recognized these players were special and decided to build around them makes him a bad gm?
- LAHawk

Damn you LA for making my point before I could get to it.

Damn you LA for making my point before I could get to it.
- Elbows15

But you were much more eloquent about it Elbows!!

So you are saying that instead of trading players he did not originally bring in, he recognized these players were special and decided to build around them makes him a bad gm?
- LAHawk

do you really want to give him credit for that? I mentioned in my earlier post that I defend SB 2010-2016, but I never use this argument. the biggest debate I had against me defending SB was that any competent GM could have come in and won 3 more cups just like SB did. We all know that's BS. But I can honestly say that any competent GM could have come in and recognize these players are special and would have decided as well to build around them.

I never said it makes him a bad GM, I just said it was a bad argument.

Seabs was a bad signing, we ALL agree. That contract was signed before Panarin even suited up for the Blackhawks, so even if you negate Panarin for Saad, you had traded Seabs for someone on defense that makes around $2 mil. because that is about what you could afford, and trade ADB as an RFA cause we could not even afford him at $3 mil, you are telling me that keeping Panarin at all costs makes the Hawks Stanley Cup contenders?

Lets not also forget at the time of the trade we still had Marian Hossa. We should of traded him too at the time? Lets say Panarin was nice and signed for the hawks for $9 mil. (highly doubt it), so you would have

Panarin $9 mil.
Toews $10.5mil.
Kane $10.5 mil.
Hossa $5 mil.
Crow $6 mil.
Keith $5.5 mikl.

Thats $46.5 mil for 6 players

you get $34.5 mil. to fill out 16 more player.

I as an armchair stratomatic GM cannot come up with a playoff team, let alone a Stanley Cup contender, whats the rest of your roster?
- LAHawk

Everybody will get to see how that type of salary structure works this year - the Maple Loafs have about $40M tied up in 4 forwards - Mathews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander. Add in Rielly and Anderson and its $50M.

That is if they even make the playoffs.

Everybody will get to see how that type of salary structure works this year - the Maple Loafs have about $40M tied up in 4 forwards - Mathews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander. Add in Rielly and Anderson and its $50M.

That is if they even make the playoffs.
- RickJ

Kadri is already a cap casualty,their #1 pick this year was a casualty of having Carolina take on Marleau's contract, and the only cap space they have is some LTIR.

Alright now we're starting to argue the validity of Bowman being responsible for the Cups and that's dumb. He was the GM of those teams and did what needed to be done to win.

The point I'm trying to make is that since they last won the cup, he's made bad decision after bad decision leading to where the team is today. The third consecutive year of being 6th or 7th in a mediocre conference (compared to the east).

I'm just gonna leave these here for everyone.

The players he's brought in and shipped out
www.nhltradetracker.com/u...team/Chicago_Blackhawks/5

His drafting record
www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/draft.html

If you guys think Bowman can dig himself out of the hole HE dug, I'm happy for you. I just don't see it.

Alright now we're starting to argue the validity of Bowman being responsible for the Cups and that's dumb. He was the GM of those teams and did what needed to be done to win.

The point I'm trying to make is that since they last won the cup, he's made bad decision after bad decision leading to where the team is today. The third consecutive year of being 6th or 7th in a mediocre conference (compared to the east).

I'm just gonna leave these here for everyone.

The players he's brought in and shipped out
www.nhltradetracker.com/u...team/Chicago_Blackhawks/5

His drafting record
www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/draft.html

If you guys think Bowman can dig himself out of the hole HE dug, I'm happy for you. I just don't see it.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

So who do you replace him with?

do you really want to give him credit for that? I mentioned in my earlier post that I defend SB 2010-2016, but I never use this argument. the biggest debate I had against me defending SB was that any competent GM could have come in and won 3 more cups just like SB did. We all know that's BS. But I can honestly say that any competent GM could have come in and recognize these players are special and would have decided as well to build around them.

I never said it makes him a bad GM, I just said it was a bad argument.
- squishy24

Maybe we get some more background to the argument. What in your mind constitutes a good GM? Is it repeatedly getting to the playoffs? Going deep in the playoffs? A trip to the Final? Winning the Final (or multiple)?

On one hand you have guys like Rutherford, Bowman, and I guess you can throw Lombardi in there as guys who have won multiple cups. Is Lombardi now a bad GM because he was fired?

Then you have guys like Yzerman, Poille, Wilson, who have been to the Final and lost, but their teams seem to normally make the PO's. Then you have someone like Chiarelli, who despite his follies in EDM put together a team who won a cup in Boston.

Alright now we're starting to argue the validity of Bowman being responsible for the Cups and that's dumb. He was the GM of those teams and did what needed to be done to win.

The point I'm trying to make is that since they last won the cup, he's made bad decision after bad decision leading to where the team is today. The third consecutive year of being 6th or 7th in a mediocre conference (compared to the east).

I'm just gonna leave these here for everyone.

The players he's brought in and shipped out
www.nhltradetracker.com/u...team/Chicago_Blackhawks/5

His drafting record
www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/draft.html

If you guys think Bowman can dig himself out of the hole HE dug, I'm happy for you. I just don't see it.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

I don't think anyone here will debate the fact that Bowman has made some bad decisions (some were just outright bad). However, most of these moves were made with external pressures (hard cap not going up, needing to move on from damaged goods).

I personally don't think the Bickell trade was a bad move. I don't like that TT had to be included, but the move itself had to be made. Same thing with the Hossa and Hjalmarsson trades. I don't necessarily like that they had to include what they did, but some of the moves had to be made.

Yes some of this was self inflicted, but a good amount of it was simply going for it every year while guys were playing at their top level.

So who do you replace him with?
- LAHawk

I don't know whose available or who will become available after the season. I've seen people talking about Mark Hunter being a great candidate for the job. Apparently he's great at developing young talent. Something the Hawks are definitely lacking.

Do you believe that GMs have strengths and weaknesses? Because it's entirely possible that Stan is a good GM when he's got a solid core of players in place already. I think he's proved that. What he hasn't proved, is that he's any good at rebuilding a broken team. Maybe people are right and we should give him a longer chance to find out if he's any good at that. But it's hard to be patient when your burning prime years off of Toews and Kane.

You only need to compare his record to those drafting in the bottom half of the 1st round. Does what kind of job include winning 3 Cups in 6 years? 6 trips to the Conference Final in 10 years?

The state of the team was and is inevitable. Or do you not realize how special it was to have players like Keith, Toews, Kane, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Sharp, Crow and Hossa on the same team and in their primes? Well, aside from Hossa. Hossa's prime was past but he was still a really (frank)ing good player.
- Elbows15

We may not like the arguable overpay on Toews and Kane but without their bridge deals unlike two losers so far named McDavid and Matthews, there are no cups in '13 and '15 kudos to Stan.

I don't know whose available or who will become available after the season. I've seen people talking about Mark Hunter being a great candidate for the job. Apparently he's great at developing young talent. Something the Hawks are definitely lacking.

Do you believe that GMs have strengths and weaknesses? Because it's entirely possible that Stan is a good GM when he's got a solid core of players in place already. I think he's proved that. What he hasn't proved, is that he's any good at rebuilding a broken team. Maybe people are right and we should give him a longer chance to find out if he's any good at that. But it's hard to be patient when your burning prime years off of Toews and Kane.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

I think you just hit on the biggest problem. Patience. The Hawks are just introducing 18 and 19yr old players into the fray on top of a team that does not have a lot of wiggle room with salary. Two players are taking up 1/4 of the cap. They are fortunate to have Keith locked in at a little over $5M per year otherwise they'd be even worse off.

I'm bullish on the future of the team, but in about 2-3 years. I'm not expecting anything more (cups) from 19 and 88, unless the cap drastically changes and they can move some major parts. Is that saddening? Yes, but it is a matter of fact for this team.

I don't know whose available or who will become available after the season. I've seen people talking about Mark Hunter being a great candidate for the job. Apparently he's great at developing young talent. Something the Hawks are definitely lacking.

Do you believe that GMs have strengths and weaknesses? Because it's entirely possible that Stan is a good GM when he's got a solid core of players in place already. I think he's proved that. What he hasn't proved, is that he's any good at rebuilding a broken team. Maybe people are right and we should give him a longer chance to find out if he's any good at that. But it's hard to be patient when your burning prime years off of Toews and Kane.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

i think he has earned the chance to rebuld. If you hire a new GM, he is going to want to tear the whole thing down anyway and you would be burning the rest of Kane and Toews time here anyway. In 2 years Stan has turned over 70% of the roster. Bowman and Colliton's contracts both run out next year. I bet Stan gets a half a season next year to see how his rebuilding went, and then Rocky will decide whether to cut bait or extend his contract.

I think you just hit on the biggest problem. Patience. The Hawks are just introducing 18 and 19yr old players into the fray on top of a team that does not have a lot of wiggle room with salary. Two players are taking up 1/4 of the cap. They are fortunate to have Keith locked in at a little over $5M per year otherwise they'd be even worse off.

I'm bullish on the future of the team, but in about 2-3 years. I'm not expecting anything more (cups) from 19 and 88, unless the cap drastically changes and they can move some major parts. Is that saddening? Yes, but it is a matter of fact for this team.
- Chunk

You're absolutely right on the first part. But if you're right about the second part and the window is closed for Toews and Kane to win another cup here, what is the purpose of keeping them?

You're absolutely right on the first part. But if you're right about the second part and the window is closed for Toews and Kane to win another cup here, what is the purpose of keeping them?
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

Because you wouldn't remotely get back a fair return.

i think he has earned the chance to rebuld. If you hire a new GM, he is going to want to tear the whole thing down anyway and you would be burning the rest of Kane and Toews time here anyway. In 2 years Stan has turned over 70% of the roster. Bowman and Colliton's contracts both run out next year. I bet Stan gets a half a season next year to see how his rebuilding went, and then Rocky will decide whether to cut bait or extend his contract.
- LAHawk

That's fair. I guess my biggest problem with all of this is that the FO is straight up lying to the fans then. They keep saying playoffs are the goal and that the team is good enough as constructed to compete. Sack up and send a letter out like the Rangers did saying they're in a rebuilding mode and to have patience.

If they would just admit that they're rebuilding and tell the fans their vision like the Rangers did, I don't think as many people would be calling for heads.

BUT

What if it's not just lip service? What if Stan and John don't see this as a rebuild at all and actually believe this team is a playoff team...

Because you wouldn't remotely get back a fair return.
- LAHawk

Okay, and why is that?

So who do you replace him with?
- LAHawk

Yep, and the thought of John McDonough (hockey executive fraud) being involved in the new GM selection process makes me ill. I have zero confidence he would be able to identify, let alone attract and hire the best possible candidate.

Okay, and why is that?
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

First, no team that would be interested in Toews and Kane (those that are in contention to win the SC, have the cap space to take on that contract. If said team (lets say Winnepeg, takes on Toews, we would probably be looking at a Bryan Little Mathiew Perrault and a first (which would be a mid rounder at best), in order to make the dollars work for them. They sure as heck not going to give us a Scheifle/Wheeler type of player. Or your looking at a Big Buff/1st rounder for Toews, neither trade is not fair value at this stage for Toews.

Yep, and the thought of John McDonough (hockey executive fraud) being involved in the new GM selection process makes me ill. I have zero confidence he would be able to identify, let alone attract and hire the best possible candidate.
- Chief4Feathers

Unless you entice a Bergevin/Cheveldeyoff to come back as a GM

Yep, and the thought of John McDonough (hockey executive fraud) being involved in the new GM selection process makes me ill. I have zero confidence he would be able to identify, let alone attract and hire the best possible candidate.
- Chief4Feathers

I sure do not like what Rob Blake has done with the Kings since he has taken over. Benning took over Vancouver before the 2014-15 season, looks like he finally got that turned around after 5 seasons and the Sedin twins retirement.