no one is canonizing Jim, no GM is perfect, but your post is purely one-sided facts. he's also responsible for these players;
hornqvist, kessel, bonino, hagelin, mccann, bjugstad
cole, daley, schultz, hainsey, marino, pettersson
and a new coach that resulted in 2 cups.

he was brought up because hes doing everything he can to not waste Malkin and Crosby years in Pittsburgh. All the while Toews and Kane years are currently being wasted here. SBs trades/acquisition this season did nothing to help out TK.
- squishy24

And Bowman brought in a new coach that resulted in 3 cups. They both had a good core in place when they arrived. Stan also brought in many players to surround the core in order to win those cups. I believe they are both intelligent hockey people and good GM"s. I am not sure one is a great deal better than the other. I am willing to take a longer view. If the Pens do not win another cup soon will the "win now" moves look so good a couple of years from now. With the young dmen the hawks have in the pipeline now and with a few other good moves could the Hawks be playing for the cup in a couple of years? Maybe. I do not see it as black and white as you do.

By no mean does it mean I exclude Bowman from criticism, he has made his share of mistakes. Just trying to present some alternative facts. lol
- Elbows15

Fair and balance commenting with facts. I like it even though we are not always in agreement.

I am starting to wonder if Shaw will be playing again any time soon or even beyond...
- frafra

I hope Shaw is ok, it doesn’t matter if he plays again. He needs to take care of himself for his family.

lol ok you got me. he could be a top pair in many bad teams, that means hes a top D pairing. for example, the blackhawks.

I have to watch how I word my point
- squishy24

4 of the top 8 teams (based on points). You could make a case that Keith could play in their top pairing.
Pittsburgh?
Colorado?
Islanders?
Columbus?

And Bowman brought in a new coach that resulted in 3 cups. They both had a good core in place when they arrived. Stan also brought in many players to surround the core in order to win those cups. I believe they are both intelligent hockey people and good GM"s. I am not sure one is a great deal better than the other. I am willing to take a longer view. If the Pens do not win another cup soon will the "win now" moves look so good a couple of years from now. With the young dmen the hawks have in the pipeline now and with a few other good moves could the Hawks be playing for the cup in a couple of years? Maybe. I do not see it as black and white as you do.
- -Doh-

youre preaching to the choir. ive had many debates and arguments how I defend SB for being responsible for the 3 cups. But everything after the 2015 cup, hes had more misses than hits. I'm not about to be blinded by the 3 cups to see whats going on with this team. The comparison to GMJR was that, he's the type who will trade picks/prospects to improve the current team and go all in. Since he took over, hes traded (almost annually) for wings that would complement both Crosby and Malkin.
And the "futures", what are the chances that SB's "futures" will pan out? or for comparison, Rutherford's?

Strome's numbers last year were padded by a better functioning PP and Kane. Minus those factors this year, he is back to the Coyote's version of himself. And this is good timing for us before we got stuck with yet another untradeable contract.
- 67hawks

ADB's is bad enough.

By no mean does it mean I exclude Bowman from criticism, he has made his share of mistakes. Just trying to present some alternative facts. lol
- Elbows15

Has there been a GM in any sport that has not made mistakes? Only one I could think of is Abe Saperstein

Olsen was a Tallon pick. McNeill a bust. TT was the highest pick. All the other forwards aside from Hartman are Top 6 players on their teams. Joki is trending toward a Top 4 D-man.
- Elbows15

You're right about Olsen. My bad. But you're still proving my point...

- McNeil bust.

- TT is great. Too bad Bowman gave Bickell Teuvos money.

- Philip Danault is a good player as well. Not sure I agree with you he's top 6 (one season over 40 points and never scored more than 13 goals) but still a good player that the Hawks could use. He was traded for Dale Weise and Tomas Fleischmann. That worked out swell.

- Hartman is fine as a 3rd/4th line player. Probably still better than anyone on the 4th line currently.

- Jokiharju like you said, is trending towards being a top 4 D... And Bowman trades him for... Alex Nylander?

If you want to take the stance that Bowman is a good drafter you go right ahead. You can do the research yourself on that and see how many of the players he's drafted that have amounted to anything. Maybe it's similar to other GMs. But it's still a problem that the few guys he drafts that DO pan out, he trades away, usually for bad players that don't work out because he's binded himself with bad contracts.

And Bowman brought in a new coach that resulted in 3 cups. They both had a good core in place when they arrived. Stan also brought in many players to surround the core in order to win those cups. I believe they are both intelligent hockey people and good GM"s. I am not sure one is a great deal better than the other. I am willing to take a longer view. If the Pens do not win another cup soon will the "win now" moves look so good a couple of years from now. With the young dmen the hawks have in the pipeline now and with a few other good moves could the Hawks be playing for the cup in a couple of years? Maybe. I do not see it as black and white as you do.
- -Doh-

Just FYI Bowman didn't hire Q, that was Tallon. Colliton is Bowman's first coaching hire.

I'll give Bowman some credit, he's had 3 drafts in a row now where it LOOKS like we're going to have some really solid players. The problem is that it's too little too late.

Bowman showed that he was good at MAINTAINING a great hockey team that had 5 HOF players on it. He has never had to rebuild a bad hockey team before. This is uncharted waters for him. We now have to judge Bowman by what he's done to address the dimise of the dynasty over the past 3 years.

2017 - 2018 | 33-39-10 (76 points, 7th in division)
First season after the first round playoff sweep.

2018 - 2019 | 36-34-12 (84 points, 6th in division)
Q takes the fall and Colliton takes over (I think a new voice was needed but bringing in a rookie coach whose never coached at the professional level in NA... Whose the same age as some of the guys on the team who have 3 cups to their name... That's just idiocy to think they would listen to and respect a guy like that after having one of the greatest coaches in hockey history)

2019 - 2020 | YTD 25-24-8 (58 points, 7th in division) | on pace for 80 points

SO...

The reason Bowman cannot stay is simple. There is no progress being made here. They're attempting this "retool on the fly" strategy that the Pens are doing. The difference between the Hawks and Pens? A GM whose good at evaluating talent, and more importantly willing to admit mistakes and address them quickly if he was wrong. Jim Rutherford gives players about 40 - 82 games to show if they click with the team in place and the system they're running. If they're not, he deals them and tries again. He doesn't wait 2 or 3 years to see what he has.

Bowman on the other hand is stubborn. There's countless examples but look no further than Nylander and Kampf. Nylander doesn't belong on an NHL roster right now but he has to save face from dealing a young up and coming Dman who we need much more than Nylander. Kampf is a bonafide AHLer whose being protected much like they did with Kruger. Where is he now?

Along with the awful system Colliton runs where Defenseman poop their pads all over the ice, the Hawks don't have any forward depth.

Let's look at that:

1st line capable talent
Debrincat
Kane
Toews

Hopefully Debrincat is just having an off year...

Kane is Kane.

1st/2nd flex
Toews

If Toews didn't have the year he had last year, he'd be a pretty firm 2nd line center based upon points for the last 5-6 years. I know everything he does for the team, but 10.5 million dollar players are paid to be superstar offensive talents, not well rounded overall players.

2nd line talent
Saad
Strome

I'm not completely sold on Strome yet, he seems to be a complimentary player incapable of driving the play or taking over a shift himself, which you'd like to see from a young 2nd line center who was drafted 3rd overall and in his 3rd pro year. But he's still young so let's give him the benefit of the doubt for this.

Saad is dominant when he wants to be, the problem is he isn't consistent and when he's not that dominant player he falls to a third line talent level.

3rd line talent
Shaw
Kubalik
Kirby Dach

Dach has his flashes and he's going to be a great NHL player. But he needs time to grow his game. Once that happens I think he'll likely be a 1 or 2 center someday. However for this example taking a look at this season and the last couple, he's on pace for 27 points which puts him at low end 3rd line production.

Kubalik has a hell of a shot and on a bad team (like this one) he's probably a 2nd line player. But he doesn't have the playmaking ability required for a top 6 role on a cup contending team. On a good team I think he probably slots down to the third line talent who plays on the PP. He's on pace for 49 points but his shooting percentage is at 16.7 percent which is really high, expect that to drop off.

Shaw is Shaw.

Annnnd finally...

4th line talent
Drake Caggiula
Ryan Carpenter
David Kampf
Zack Smith
Alex Nylander
Some combination of Matthew Highmore/Dylan Sikura/John Quenville/Brandon Hagel

Two whole lines worth of 4th liners who play consistently for this team.

Caggiula gets moved all around the lineup
Carpenter got like 4 mins of PP time recently
Kampf is an AHLer
Zack Smith is an energy guy
Alex Nylander is... bad
All of those AHLs aren't ready and even when they are none of them are more than 3rd or 4th line fillers.

This is why the Hawks are 13-28 when Kane doesn't have a multi point night. And 1-12 when he doesn't record a single point.

This team is poorly coached and badly rostered. Chalk full of 4th liners and players that don't belong in the NHL. Both of those fall on Bowman.

The only reason this team isn't even worse, is because Colliton changed his defensive system. Had he not done that, Bowman and Colliton would have been fired. But since he did, the Hawks started playing better. That's why Bowman is still here right now. That change gave Rocky and McD hope this team could turn it around.

But now here we are, too close to the trade deadline to fire him and bring in someone else. I suspect they will either fire him once they're ruled out of the playoffs for the 3rd straight year, or wait until the season is over.

If there was progress being made I'd say maybe he stays, but this is the third year of a 6th or 7th place team with no top tier up and coming forward prospects other than Dach because Bowman swung and missed on Nylander.

As much as people yell about the defense, the offense is as bad or worse, it's just being masked by Kane and the insane goaltending they've gotten. The Western Conference is loaded with bubble teams and the Hawks still are in 7th place.

Bowman's plan was to rebuild on the fly so that the Hawks would remain competitive and relevant and make Rocky some playoff money. How do you think Rocky is going to feel seeing that the team is status quo for the third straight year after Bowman told him "this team is good enough" the last two years?

Are you willing to bet that after yet another embarrassing season, that Rocky is fine with the status and progress of this team?

I'm not. Money talks. And Bowman is losing Rocky lots and lots of money.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

After all that you miss the point that the core got old too quickly, they drafted low and didn't have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (who would), and they sold out for cup runs in '16 and '17 and would have been roasted if they did not. Anaheim, San Jose, Detroit, LA, Montreal, Dallas - sold out this year, Minn, Rangers, all have trended downward just like Chicago or worse with no cups to show. As McD said it goes in a cycle. Way too much whining here, fire this guy, fire that guy it will all be fixed - NOT!

You're right about Olsen. My bad. But you're still proving my point...

- McNeil bust.

- TT is great. Too bad Bowman gave Bickell Teuvos money.

- Philip Danault is a good player as well. Not sure I agree with you he's top 6 (one season over 40 points and never scored more than 13 goals) but still a good player that the Hawks could use. He was traded for Dale Weise and Tomas Fleischmann. That worked out swell.

- Hartman is fine as a 3rd/4th line player. Probably still better than anyone on the 4th line currently.

- Jokiharju like you said, is trending towards being a top 4 D... And Bowman trades him for... Alex Nylander?

If you want to take the stance that Bowman is a good drafter you go right ahead. You can do the research yourself on that and see how many of the players he's drafted that have amounted to anything. Maybe it's similar to other GMs. But it's still a problem that the few guys he drafts that DO pan out, he trades away, usually for bad players that don't work out because he's binded himself with bad contracts.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

Your last paragraph is two separate points though.

Given where he picked prior to the last two drafts, he’s had a decent amount of first round hits vs the one true miss on McNeil.

Just because those guys aren’t here anymore doesn’t mean he’s bad at drafting which was O believe your original point.

After all that you miss the point that the core got old too quickly, they drafted low and didn't have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (who would), and they sold out for cup runs in '16 and '17 and would have been roasted if they did not. Anaheim, San Jose, Detroit, LA, Montreal, Dallas - sold out this year, Minn, Rangers, all have trended downward just like Chicago or worse with no cups to show. As McD said it goes in a cycle. Way too much whining here, fire this guy, fire that guy it will all be fixed - NOT!
- rpeters01

What an intelligent post. You've swayed me sir.

What an intelligent post. You've swayed me sir.
- Toew Drags 4 Daze

Not sure anyone would try to do that as that appears to be impossible. Hope you feel better after getting it all off your chest today.

Hawks are right where we all expected them to be this year.

After all that you miss the point that the core got old too quickly, they drafted low and didn't have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (who would), and they sold out for cup runs in '16 and '17 and would have been roasted if they did not. Anaheim, San Jose, Detroit, LA, Montreal, Dallas - sold out this year, Minn, Rangers, all have trended downward just like Chicago or worse with no cups to show. As McD said it goes in a cycle. Way too much whining here, fire this guy, fire that guy it will all be fixed - NOT!
- rpeters01

I don't even deny that a change should/would improve things, but it is going to take a decent amount of time before the Hawks are a legitimate team again. There are simply too many holes to fill. JC is not the long term solution as coach, but I believe that he is good for what they are trying to accomplish right now. Bringing along a ton of young guys to learn how to play the right way. No, the results are not what we want, but there is progress being made.

Dach, Boqvist, Highmore, Gilbert (to a lesser extent), Kubalik have all come in and shown notable stride on D - one of the biggest issues for young players.

There are no quick fixes for this team unless all four of the big contracts agrees to waive and they can start from scratch - and even then, it would likely take time to build chemistry.

After all that you miss the point that the core got old too quickly, they drafted low and didn't have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (who would), and they sold out for cup runs in '16 and '17 and would have been roasted if they did not. Anaheim, San Jose, Detroit, LA, Montreal, Dallas - sold out this year, Minn, Rangers, all have trended downward just like Chicago or worse with no cups to show. As McD said it goes in a cycle. Way too much whining here, fire this guy, fire that guy it will all be fixed - NOT!
- rpeters01

So what you're really saying is.... Stan should be fired?

So what you're really saying is.... Stan should be fired?
- DarthKane

Goes without saying. Although you need an exclamation point at the end and not a question mark.

Your last paragraph is two separate points though.

Given where he picked prior to the last two drafts, he’s had a decent amount of first round hits vs the one true miss on McNeil.

Just because those guys aren’t here anymore doesn’t mean he’s bad at drafting which was O believe your original point.
- HawkintheD

Yes I believe he is bad at drafting, just take a glance at the last 9 years of this list...

www.hockey-reference.com/teams/chi/draft.html

These points aren't mutually exclusive though. He can be bad at drafting and still have some good draft picks. My point is simply that he rarely drafts players capable of making an impact and cracking the top 6 which is desperately needed, and the ones he has, he's traded away for bad returns.

If he was getting good players in return I wouldn't have a problem with it, but he doesnt.

Your last paragraph is two separate points though.

Given where he picked prior to the last two drafts, he’s had a decent amount of first round hits vs the one true miss on McNeil.

Just because those guys aren’t here anymore doesn’t mean he’s bad at drafting which was O believe your original point.
- HawkintheD

I take it to mean that Stan doesn't know who trade and who to keep. Of all those 1st rounders listed, he has an inconsistent Strome and Bustlander on the current roster to show for it...no bueno

Not sure anyone would try to do that as that appears to be impossible. Hope you feel better after getting it all off your chest today.

Hawks are right where we all expected them to be this year.
- DougEFresh Wilson

😂 I do feel better actually.

But I'm arguing with logic and stats to back it all up. I've formed my opinions based on those things. If someone wants to make a case for Stan and Jeremy to keep their jobs while backing it up with stats, I'm all ears man. I hate being this negative.

Not sure anyone would try to do that as that appears to be impossible. Hope you feel better after getting it all off your chest today.

Hawks are right where we all expected them to be this year.
- DougEFresh Wilson

Also yes the Hawks are right where we all expected them to be. It just doesn't sound like Bowman and McD had those same expectations.

After all that you miss the point that the core got old too quickly, they drafted low and didn't have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (who would), and they sold out for cup runs in '16 and '17 and would have been roasted if they did not. Anaheim, San Jose, Detroit, LA, Montreal, Dallas - sold out this year, Minn, Rangers, all have trended downward just like Chicago or worse with no cups to show. As McD said it goes in a cycle. Way too much whining here, fire this guy, fire that guy it will all be fixed - NOT!
- rpeters01

WRONG

we DID have replacements for Sharp and Hossa (Panarin and Teravainen)

But our idiot GM traded them away

But I’m sure someone will make up another excuse for those mistakes as well.

Here we sit with one of the weakest rosters in the entire league and fans STILL want to defend our GM. It’s insane.

So what you're really saying is.... Stan should be fired?
- DarthKane

😂

nothing wrong with Keith's caphit. he's still the #1D, for his caphit, hes lower than market price. But Seabs'.......
- squishy24

Keith might be worth keeping around for this alone (from The Athletic)

Duncan Keith didn’t set out to become a mentor for both Adam Boqvist and Kirby Dach. It just sort of worked out that way.

“Those guys are pretty young, so I think I recognize that,” Keith said. “It’s not like they’re 22, 23, 24, 25. They’re 18 and 19 years old, so there’s young and there’s really young. And those guys fall into that category. Try to take that into consideration, realize these guys maybe need a little bit of — I don’t know if it’s guidance, necessarily, but you can tell they’re hanging off of some of the things you’re saying to them. So I try to be a good influence on them in a positive way.”

Keith’s influence has been most evident with Boqvist, with whom he’s partnered for most of the games since Brent Seabrook and Calvin de Haan were lost for the season. Boqvist’s defense was supposed to be a glaring liability, but he’s proven to be a capable defender. Boqvist credits Keith with helping him along and calming his game down.
...
Jeremy Colliton has been pleased with how the partnership has worked out so far.
“Yeah, it’s a great resource for (Boqvist),” he said. “Learning the league and learning what it takes to be a top defenseman, and (having) someone to talk to and someone to watch, too. Pretty short list of guys who take care of themselves as well as Dunc does. And that’s a lesson a lot of young players need to learn.”

Has there been a GM in any sport that has not made mistakes? Only one I could think of is Abe Saperstein
- LAHawk

You have to qualify in a salary cap era.

youre preaching to the choir. ive had many debates and arguments how I defend SB for being responsible for the 3 cups. But everything after the 2015 cup, hes had more misses than hits. I'm not about to be blinded by the 3 cups to see whats going on with this team. The comparison to GMJR was that, he's the type who will trade picks/prospects to improve the current team and go all in. Since he took over, hes traded (almost annually) for wings that would complement both Crosby and Malkin.
And the "futures", what are the chances that SB's "futures" will pan out? or for comparison, Rutherford's?
- squishy24

What if he goes all in and does not win? Will he still be genius in a year or two if his cap situation is bad, he has no low draft picks and his prospect pool is lean.

It is hard to judge who gets the credit for success or failure. Owner, GM, Coach, Core...

I have a longer term view. I happen to believe Stan can turn this around. It might be in 2023/24 when Toews and Kane are still good players but after their current contract. By that time our young D should be very good, Seabs is bought out the cap increases, and we have cap space to add.

We can fire Stan. But whoever comes in, even if they are super, probably cannot get it done before 23/24 anyway.