I still go back to the season isn't even half way yet. We can't just go making knee-jerk reactions. Most of the season hasn't seen the entire, non-injured team WITH a new head coach.
- Aaron_85

Keefe has a tough task of getting players that have always played soft to find new motivation to play more like men. Maybe he can do it.

I think Toronto fans have an issue with their star players. They expect them to be something they likely are not and never will be. We did the same thing to Kessel. We wanted him to be this beast of a winger, hitting, cycling, scoring. Play this 200 foot game and it isn't really him.

We are doing the same thing to Nylander now. Toronto can never shake loving their grinders like Tucker.
- Aaron_85

I don't mind star players not playing tough and paying a price if they don't want to. Matthews has all the physical characteristics to be a monster to play against but he doesn't want to. So be it.

My main issue is if the star players want to play that way, is it possible for us to ask for the support players to not play that way? Or do we just accept the support players are lesser versions of the star players, with the same strengths and weaknesses?

I think Toronto fans have an issue with their star players. They expect them to be something they likely are not and never will be. We did the same thing to Kessel. We wanted him to be this beast of a winger, hitting, cycling, scoring. Play this 200 foot game and it isn't really him.

We are doing the same thing to Nylander now. Toronto can never shake loving their grinders like Tucker.
- Aaron_85

Not really - I made two points, one the Leafs are lousy at drawing penalties - statistically a valid statement. Coaching staff and players need to realize this and do something about it. The limited number of power plays is no accident - I am not promoting diving - but there are ways to draw penalties without diving. Second - you can automatically create more chances and probably more power plays by going to the danger zone more often. Let Matthews, JT, Mikheyev and others go there and create more chances and discomfort for the opposing goalie.

I don't mind star players not playing tough and paying a price if they don't want to. Matthews has all the physical characteristics to be a monster to play against but he doesn't want to. So be it.

My main issue is if the star players want to play that way, is it possible for us to ask for thr support players to play that way? Or do we just accept the support players are lesser versions of the star players, with the same strengths and weaknesses?
- walshyleafsfan

Isn't that what separates the star players from good players? The ability to excel at any style of play?

Isn't that what separates the star players from good players? The ability to excel at any style of play?
- PatC80

Do our star players excel at any style of play? Or do they excel at one style of play?

Isn't that what separates the star players from good players? The ability to excel at any style of play?
- PatC80

not really

being able to outscore other good players is what separates stars from good players

Crosby had a lot of concussion problems.

Anyway, doesn't mean they can't do it or didn't do it. They also all have cups. 2 of them have 3.

Doesn't excuse Matthews from being a little more like that.
- Aaron_85

Matthews is 22

We have to let him have a chance to win a cup before we start comparing his cup less stat to the 30 year olds Crosby and Toews.

They have some good pieces, but why are talking about the Blue Jackets? We should talk about something new like Nylander = Mackinnon
- PatC80

Because the BJ's thread isn't active and I like to discuss other teams instead of the same poopty leaf discussions every day.

Matthews is 22

We have to let him have a chance to win a cup before we start comparing his cup less stat to the 30 year olds Crosby and Toews.
- Santo_44

That's fair in a way. Both guys won at 22 though. So I'm saying the Leafs are winning it all this year!

Do our star players excel at any style of play? Or do they excel at one style of play?
- walshyleafsfan

good point

Werenski, Jones, Dubois, Anderson (despite his horrible season this year) and Bjorkstrand are solid pieces to build around.... their lack of picks because of the all-in doesn't help at all though.
- Scabeh

I agree those are good player. They do not have an NHL goalie signed for next season. Dubois will get a healthy raise. They have to make a decision on Anderson - he's an RFA that they will want to get term on because he's 25. I think that Bergevin would really like this team. Lots of 4th line grinders including the captain, goon Jenner to name a couple.

Matthews is 22

We have to let him have a chance to win a cup before we start comparing his cup less stat to the 30 year olds Crosby and Toews.
- Santo_44

not the best examples...didnt Crosby and Toews both win a cup by 21

Not really - I made two points, one the Leafs are lousy at drawing penalties - statistically a valid statement. Coaching staff and players need to realize this and do something about it. The limited number of power plays is no accident - I am not promoting diving - but there are ways to draw penalties without diving. Second - you can automatically create more chances and probably more power plays by going to the danger zone more often. Let Matthews, JT, Mikheyev and others go there and create more chances and discomfort for the opposing goalie.
- winsix

I probably shouldn't have quoted you to make my statement. You're right it wasn't quite what I'm discussing but I used it as a jump off point.

Your PP point is valid.

Matthews is 22

We have to let him have a chance to win a cup before we start comparing his cup less stat to the 30 year olds Crosby and Toews.
- Santo_44

It's a style of play issue. Crosby was a workhorse at 22. The 2 Cup finals he made as a young guy he was playing a tough, hard-nosed gritty game. He paid the price many times and sat injured on the bench the last 10 minutes of his first cup win. Playing hard hockey is not some unknown that Matthews has to stumble upon. It's well known. It's a must. He simply chooses not to play the right way. He is not the only on. There are a whole bunch of guys like this on the Leafs.

I don't mind star players not playing tough and paying a price if they don't want to. Matthews has all the physical characteristics to be a monster to play against but he doesn't want to. So be it.

My main issue is if the star players want to play that way, is it possible for us to ask for the support players to not play that way? Or do we just accept the support players are lesser versions of the star players, with the same strengths and weaknesses?
- walshyleafsfan

Sure but when the role players do their role we poop all over them too and say "Well they aren't THAT good because they don't have a scoring touch."

It was said about Kerfoot early in the season. Despite being pretty good people still were clamouring for him to play as a top center, making 3rd line money and playing 3rd line minutes.

That's fair in a way. Both guys won at 22 though. So I'm saying the Leafs are winning it all this year!
- Aaron_85

It’s just something a lot of people are guilty of.

Matthews isn’t mature enough, look at Crosby and Toews!

They both developed into amazing players. At 20 years old they were also unreal talents...were they the players they were at 27? (frank) no and they shouldn’t be..not every player is Justin Holl

I agree those are good player. They do not have an NHL goalie signed for next season. Dubois will get a healthy raise. They have to make a decision on Anderson - he's an RFA that they will want to get term on because he's 25. I think that Bergevin would really like this team. Lots of 4th line grinders including the captain, goon Jenner to name a couple.
- winsix

I don't watch the games but is Korpisalo the guy they want him to be in net? Worth resigning?

good point
- PatC80

Are star players are very very good. Easily enough to go deep multiple times. It's the support players that need to provide the support in any missing elements your team has. There's no need for the Leafs to have all of Mikheyev, Moore, Johnsson, Engvall (like the PK), Spezza, Kerfoot, Kapanen (love the PK), Petan etc.

Take some of them away add a few elements that this team is missing. 50% of the game, 45% of the game if you're elite is played when you don't have the puck

It's a style of play issue. Crosby was a workhorse at 22. The 2 Cup finals he made as a young guy he was playing a tough, hard-nosed gritty game. He paid the price many times and sat injured on the bench the last 10 minutes of his first cup win. Playing hard hockey is not some unknown that Matthews has to stumble upon. It's well known. It's a must. He simply chooses not to play the right way. He is not the only on. There are a whole bunch of guys like this on the Leafs.
- aminnes

Yeah so much more mature than that wussy Matthews. His first Stanley cup appearance he sat because of a sore pinky. What a wuss.

Do our star players excel at any style of play? Or do they excel at one style of play?
- walshyleafsfan

Good point - I think you have to look at the tool-kit of the star players. Matthews , Marner, Tavares all have multiple high end skills. They are not without flaws but most teams in the NHL would drool at the thought of having those three players as the nucleus of an offence.

Sure but when the role players do their role we poop all over them too and say "Well they aren't THAT good because they don't have a scoring touch."

It was said about Kerfoot early in the season. Despite being pretty good people still were clamouring for him to play as a top center, making 3rd line money and playing 3rd line minutes.
- Aaron_85

Personally i don't worry about support players (especially bottom 6) and how many points they get.

I've always, always advocated for Hyman with Matthews and Nylander. Even when a lot hated Hyman. I don't care if he gets 30 points a season on that line.

Because the BJ's thread isn't active and I like to discuss other teams instead of the same poopty leaf discussions every day.
- Aaron_85

They have a fairly ok roster, but it's quite slim after their top3 guys..
Not sure why, but I've always hoped Columbus does well..

Jones
Dubois
Werenski are their best 3 guys by far.

I think the biggest disappointment for them has been Murray - 2012 was a tough draft though (Burkie might have been right at the end, although I personally think Lindholm, Forsberg and Vasilevskiy would go before Rielly in a redraft).

I think it will take them another 3 years at least though before they'll make the playoffs again.

I don't watch the games but is Korpisalo the guy they want him to be in net? Worth resigning?
- Aaron_85

Does not matter - they will not be dealing from a position of strength when trying to get a goalie. Very good teams become irrelevant with poor goaltending Leaf and Flyer fans are aware of this.

It’s just something a lot of people are guilty of.

Matthews isn’t mature enough, look at Crosby and Toews!

They both developed into amazing players. At 20 years old they were also unreal talents...were they the players they were at 27? (frank) no and they shouldn’t be..not every player is Justin Holl
- Santo_44

Matthews is getting paid like he is like them at 22 though.

Do our star players excel at any style of play? Or do they excel at one style of play?
- walshyleafsfan

yes - yes