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Forums :: Blog World :: Sean Maloughney: G30 - Senators @ Oilers - Don't Play Down
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MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Dec 5 @ 2:40 PM ET
How much cap space will the Oilers have next season, what with expiring contracts and finalized buyouts?
- Wildschwein

~24mil with Nurse and Bear to sign along with pretty much the entire bottom half of the roster (bottom-6, backup goalie). So, using 7.25 on those two, around 6.75 for Nurse, 2 on a short term deal for Bear and that leaves us 8mil to fill out a reasonably capable bottom-6, a back up goalie and a replacement for one of or both of Benning and Persson on the right side.

That could be stretched somewhat by buying out Neal (3.9mil) and trading Russell (~2 to 2.5mil after retention), but if we're going that route anyway, I'd MUCH rather spend perhaps our most valuable trade asset on a top-6 winger that has more than 24 games at 0.5 pts/game to his resume.
Wildschwein
New York Islanders
Joined: 11.17.2012

Dec 5 @ 2:45 PM ET
~24mil with Nurse and Bear to sign along with pretty much the entire bottom half of the roster (bottom-6, backup goalie). So, using 7.25 on those two, around 6.75 for Nurse, 2 on a short term deal for Bear and that leaves us 8mil to fill out a reasonably capable bottom-6, a back up goalie and a replacement for one of or both of Benning and Persson on the right side.

That could be stretched somewhat by buying out Neal (3.9mil) and trading Russell (~2 to 2.5mil after retention), but if we're going that route anyway, I'd MUCH rather spend perhaps our most valuable trade asset on a top-6 winger that has more than 24 games at 0.5 pts/game to his resume.

- MaximumBone


So essentially the Oilers will have little to no choice but to play Bouchard, Benson and Yamamoto next season.
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Dec 5 @ 2:46 PM ET
So essentially the Oilers will have little to no choice but to play Bouchard, Benson and Yamamoto next season.
- Wildschwein

If we make your deal, yes If we go my way... likely still yes, but maybe not!
Wildschwein
New York Islanders
Joined: 11.17.2012

Dec 5 @ 4:45 PM ET
If we make your deal, yes If we go my way... likely still yes, but maybe not!
- MaximumBone


HB77
Edmonton Oilers
Location: PC is a genius for drafting mcdavid
Joined: 02.20.2007

Dec 5 @ 5:43 PM ET
Klefbom isn’t without his warts. Especially if he’s being played insane mins with a mediocre partner. And certainly none that are as good as bear.

But the same would absolutely be said of nurse if he was playing those mins. In fact, He was last year and the team was a fuking tire fire. Not all causality of course. But definitely a correlation.

Nurse doesn’t move the puck nearly well enough to be considered our best defender. And not only is that extremely important in today’s game, but it’s paramount when u have a weapon like mcdavid that essentially can’t be stopped if given the puck in stride with a step on defender. klefbom can do that. And one can even say it’s important when u have weak forwards Cause they can’t break traps by carrying the puck over multiple lines.


As far as trading nurse, I’m not entirely sure it’s the right move. He’s a quality defender that can’t easily be replaced. Especially by question mark prospects. But he’s not worth 7 long term and we desperately need a scoring winger. I’d prefer larsson in a package of course, but It has to considered depending on nurses’s ask.


Klefbom is our only true top pairing guy. Bear’s probably not too far
HB77
Edmonton Oilers
Location: PC is a genius for drafting mcdavid
Joined: 02.20.2007

Dec 5 @ 5:49 PM ET
So essentially the Oilers will have little to no choice but to play Bouchard, Benson and Yamamoto next season.
- Wildschwein

I believe this might not just be our only choice, but it might actually be ideal.

If you get a scoring winger for top 6, yam/benson can be eased in a 3rd line role with limited expectations. And more importantly, we wouldn’t need them to go off to have success. But if they do, we’re elite. Literally the bolts model for ages. (Point, cirelli, gourde, Joseph etc) And it’s money.

And the cheap deals they’re all on all help out cap too

And we need to move two of larsson, Russel, nurse. Preferably the first two.
So a spot for bouchard next year is almost a given.

Klefbom jones
Nurse bear
Bouchard lagesson

Young- but potentially hella good. 4 or 5 guys there that can move the puck and create offence
Wildschwein
New York Islanders
Joined: 11.17.2012

Dec 5 @ 6:45 PM ET
I believe this might not just be our only choice, but it might actually be ideal.

If you get a scoring winger for top 6, yam/benson can be eased in a 3rd line role with limited expectations. And more importantly, we wouldn’t need them to go off to have success. But if they do, we’re elite. Literally the bolts model for ages. (Point, cirelli, gourde, Joseph etc) And it’s money.

And the cheap deals they’re all on all help out cap too

And we need to move two of larsson, Russel, nurse. Preferably the first two.
So a spot for bouchard next year is almost a given.

Klefbom jones
Nurse bear
Bouchard lagesson

Young- but potentially hella good. 4 or 5 guys there that can move the puck and create offence

- HB77


Fair statements. Hopefully it pans out exactly as you put it.

Disagree slightly on the D pairs though. Personally I’d like to see something along the lines of

Nurse-Bear
Klefbom-Bouchard
Lagesson-Larsson

Move on from Russell.
HB77
Edmonton Oilers
Location: PC is a genius for drafting mcdavid
Joined: 02.20.2007

Dec 5 @ 7:02 PM ET
Fair statements. Hopefully it pans out exactly as you put it.

Disagree slightly on the D pairs though. Personally I’d like to see something along the lines of

Nurse-Bear
Klefbom-Bouchard
Lagesson-Larsson

Move on from Russell.

- Wildschwein



Gotta trades jones then I think. He deserves a long look or just move him. He’s still abit too mistake prone I’ll admit, but yeah, can’t just mire him down there forever

Side note/ larsson is regressing and I don’t ever see him coming back. 4mil+ on the 3rd pair is just another Russel. But on paper, I don’t hate those pairings
MaximumBone
Edmonton Oilers
Joined: 06.15.2012

Dec 6 @ 8:50 AM ET
Klefbom isn’t without his warts. Especially if he’s being played insane mins with a mediocre partner. And certainly none that are as good as bear.

But the same would absolutely be said of nurse if he was playing those mins. In fact, He was last year and the team was a fuking tire fire. Not all causality of course. But definitely a correlation.

- HB77

The problem I have with this argument is your framing.

Yes, Nurse was effectively playing top pairing minutes last season and the team was a tire fire. Do you know who else was playing effectively top pairing minutes on that tire fire team last year? Klefbom. He saw 23:59/gm while Nurse saw 23:49/gm. Pretty much identical and one played largely with a struggling Larsson while the other played with a typical Russell.

As stated in my write-up, Edmonton under Todd and Ken deployed their top-2 pairings against the best opposition at very comparable rates, they both played almost 24 minutes a night and both were fixtures on special teams. Docking either of them for not facing 39%+ of their time against the best opponents goes both ways. Either both of them played top pairing last year and deserve equal shares of blame for the "tire fire" or neither did/does.
Nurse doesn’t move the puck nearly well enough to be considered our best defender. And not only is that extremely important in today’s game, but it’s paramount when u have a weapon like mcdavid that essentially can’t be stopped if given the puck in stride with a step on defender. klefbom can do that. And one can even say it’s important when u have weak forwards Cause they can’t break traps by carrying the puck over multiple lines.

He certainly doesn't pass as well as Klefbom does, but he's twice the puck carrier which makes me think that's part of why he's so much more effective than Klefbom when away from Connor (by 8.2% in goal share over 3 years).

Considering your argument is oriented around Klefbom's passing being so much more important to the team's success with he and McDavid on the ice, why doesn't this show in the data?

Player: GF/60 / GA/60 / total /60) / GF% w/o McDavid
Klefbom: 3.2 / 3.25 / -0.05 G/60 / 34.8%
Nurse: 3.8 / 2.71 / +1.09 G/60 / 43.5%


I can't think of any particular reason why the data could be considered invalid or skewed. Unless you were to argue Nurse is always stepping on the ice after Klefbom makes the pass for McDavid to gain the offensive zone, but at that point you'd have a massive burden of proof. Seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Maybe it's true that Klefbom's passing aids in transitioning the puck but I'd ask two things to follow that up: 1.) is it fair to state that- going off the data- Nurse's in-zone offensive contributions must be greater than Klefbom's and 2.) does that "flow of play" matter much if it isn't generating goal share dominance?

Having looked at the data, even if we make the argument that flow of play does matter, this set's flow numbers even looked rather similar to the rest.
As far as trading nurse, I’m not entirely sure it’s the right move. He’s a quality defender that can’t easily be replaced. Especially by question mark prospects. But he’s not worth 7 long term and we desperately need a scoring winger. I’d prefer larsson in a package of course, but It has to considered depending on nurses’s ask.

Nurse has consistently shown an ability to be a positive force on the ice relative to his team's results. It's fair to suggest that he may be better suited to a spot lower down the lineup considering the team's results with him in that spot, but I'd respond in kind considering the team's results with Klefbom in such a spot.

Further, this doesn't account for the additional factors I listed. Nurse has a LOT going in his favour- results, age, durability, etc- that we shouldn't hastily disregard in our value calculations when comparing him and Klefbom.

I don't know for sure that he's worth 7mil but I do know that I'd rather take the risk with him at around 7 (probably closer to 6.75, but I'll assume higher) than trade him and rely on a perpetual injury risk whose results in the same role have been noticeably worse- even if he costs ~3mil less.

My ideal is really to continue playing Nurse as we have, get Klefbom's minutes and deployment down to how it was with Persson (offensive push, softer minutes) and use those two to usher in the new era of Dmen.
Klefbom is our only true top pairing guy.

The past two years, Nurse and Klefbom have played VERY comparable minutes alongside comparable partners and comparable deployment. I'll stand by my statement: either both are or neither are.
Bear’s probably not too far

Excuse my strong words here but it's absurd to suggest that Bear is close while simultaneously asserting that Nurse isn't. This if my inference of your meaning in this statement is accurate, of course.
Wildschwein
New York Islanders
Joined: 11.17.2012

Dec 6 @ 10:13 AM ET
The problem I have with this argument is your framing.

Yes, Nurse was effectively playing top pairing minutes last season and the team was a tire fire. Do you know who else was playing effectively top pairing minutes on that tire fire team last year? Klefbom. He saw 23:59/gm while Nurse saw 23:49/gm. Pretty much identical and one played largely with a struggling Larsson while the other played with a typical Russell.

As stated in my write-up, Edmonton under Todd and Ken deployed their top-2 pairings against the best opposition at very comparable rates, they both played almost 24 minutes a night and both were fixtures on special teams. Docking either of them for not facing 39%+ of their time against the best opponents goes both ways. Either both of them played top pairing last year and deserve equal shares of blame for the "tire fire" or neither did/does.

He certainly doesn't pass as well as Klefbom does, but he's twice the puck carrier which makes me think that's part of why he's so much more effective than Klefbom when away from Connor (by 8.2% in goal share over 3 years).

Considering your argument is oriented around Klefbom's passing being so much more important to the team's success with he and McDavid on the ice, why doesn't this show in the data?

Player: GF/60 / GA/60 / total /60) / GF% w/o McDavid
Klefbom: 3.2 / 3.25 / -0.05 G/60 / 34.8%
Nurse: 3.8 / 2.71 / +1.09 G/60 / 43.5%


I can't think of any particular reason why the data could be considered invalid or skewed. Unless you were to argue Nurse is always stepping on the ice after Klefbom makes the pass for McDavid to gain the offensive zone, but at that point you'd have a massive burden of proof. Seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Maybe it's true that Klefbom's passing aids in transitioning the puck but I'd ask two things to follow that up: 1.) is it fair to state that- going off the data- Nurse's in-zone offensive contributions must be greater than Klefbom's and 2.) does that "flow of play" matter much if it isn't generating goal share dominance?

Having looked at the data, even if we make the argument that flow of play does matter, this set's flow numbers even looked rather similar to the rest.

Nurse has consistently shown an ability to be a positive force on the ice relative to his team's results. It's fair to suggest that he may be better suited to a spot lower down the lineup considering the team's results with him in that spot, but I'd respond in kind considering the team's results with Klefbom in such a spot.

Further, this doesn't account for the additional factors I listed. Nurse has a LOT going in his favour- results, age, durability, etc- that we shouldn't hastily disregard in our value calculations when comparing him and Klefbom.

I don't know for sure that he's worth 7mil but I do know that I'd rather take the risk with him at around 7 (probably closer to 6.75, but I'll assume higher) than trade him and rely on a perpetual injury risk whose results in the same role have been noticeably worse- even if he costs ~3mil less.

My ideal is really to continue playing Nurse as we have, get Klefbom's minutes and deployment down to how it was with Persson (offensive push, softer minutes) and use those two to usher in the new era of Dmen.

The past two years, Nurse and Klefbom have played VERY comparable minutes alongside comparable partners and comparable deployment. I'll stand by my statement: either both are or neither are.

Excuse my strong words here but it's absurd to suggest that Bear is close while simultaneously asserting that Nurse isn't. This if my inference of your meaning in this statement is accurate, of course.

- MaximumBone



wreckage
Florida Panthers
Location: Fuck Putin, fire Holland, AB
Joined: 07.29.2013

Dec 6 @ 2:04 PM ET
The problem I have with this argument is your framing.

Yes, Nurse was effectively playing top pairing minutes last season and the team was a tire fire. Do you know who else was playing effectively top pairing minutes on that tire fire team last year? Klefbom. He saw 23:59/gm while Nurse saw 23:49/gm. Pretty much identical and one played largely with a struggling Larsson while the other played with a typical Russell.

As stated in my write-up, Edmonton under Todd and Ken deployed their top-2 pairings against the best opposition at very comparable rates, they both played almost 24 minutes a night and both were fixtures on special teams. Docking either of them for not facing 39%+ of their time against the best opponents goes both ways. Either both of them played top pairing last year and deserve equal shares of blame for the "tire fire" or neither did/does.

He certainly doesn't pass as well as Klefbom does, but he's twice the puck carrier which makes me think that's part of why he's so much more effective than Klefbom when away from Connor (by 8.2% in goal share over 3 years).

Considering your argument is oriented around Klefbom's passing being so much more important to the team's success with he and McDavid on the ice, why doesn't this show in the data?

Player: GF/60 / GA/60 / total /60) / GF% w/o McDavid
Klefbom: 3.2 / 3.25 / -0.05 G/60 / 34.8%
Nurse: 3.8 / 2.71 / +1.09 G/60 / 43.5%


I can't think of any particular reason why the data could be considered invalid or skewed. Unless you were to argue Nurse is always stepping on the ice after Klefbom makes the pass for McDavid to gain the offensive zone, but at that point you'd have a massive burden of proof. Seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Maybe it's true that Klefbom's passing aids in transitioning the puck but I'd ask two things to follow that up: 1.) is it fair to state that- going off the data- Nurse's in-zone offensive contributions must be greater than Klefbom's and 2.) does that "flow of play" matter much if it isn't generating goal share dominance?

Having looked at the data, even if we make the argument that flow of play does matter, this set's flow numbers even looked rather similar to the rest.

Nurse has consistently shown an ability to be a positive force on the ice relative to his team's results. It's fair to suggest that he may be better suited to a spot lower down the lineup considering the team's results with him in that spot, but I'd respond in kind considering the team's results with Klefbom in such a spot.

Further, this doesn't account for the additional factors I listed. Nurse has a LOT going in his favour- results, age, durability, etc- that we shouldn't hastily disregard in our value calculations when comparing him and Klefbom.

I don't know for sure that he's worth 7mil but I do know that I'd rather take the risk with him at around 7 (probably closer to 6.75, but I'll assume higher) than trade him and rely on a perpetual injury risk whose results in the same role have been noticeably worse- even if he costs ~3mil less.

My ideal is really to continue playing Nurse as we have, get Klefbom's minutes and deployment down to how it was with Persson (offensive push, softer minutes) and use those two to usher in the new era of Dmen.

The past two years, Nurse and Klefbom have played VERY comparable minutes alongside comparable partners and comparable deployment. I'll stand by my statement: either both are or neither are.

Excuse my strong words here but it's absurd to suggest that Bear is close while simultaneously asserting that Nurse isn't. This if my inference of your meaning in this statement is accurate, of course.

- MaximumBone


When did you become the blogger?
SRam19
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Messier the Greatest Canucks Captain
Joined: 02.12.2015

Dec 6 @ 2:05 PM ET
The problem I have with this argument is your framing.

Yes, Nurse was effectively playing top pairing minutes last season and the team was a tire fire. Do you know who else was playing effectively top pairing minutes on that tire fire team last year? Klefbom. He saw 23:59/gm while Nurse saw 23:49/gm. Pretty much identical and one played largely with a struggling Larsson while the other played with a typical Russell.

As stated in my write-up, Edmonton under Todd and Ken deployed their top-2 pairings against the best opposition at very comparable rates, they both played almost 24 minutes a night and both were fixtures on special teams. Docking either of them for not facing 39%+ of their time against the best opponents goes both ways. Either both of them played top pairing last year and deserve equal shares of blame for the "tire fire" or neither did/does.

He certainly doesn't pass as well as Klefbom does, but he's twice the puck carrier which makes me think that's part of why he's so much more effective than Klefbom when away from Connor (by 8.2% in goal share over 3 years).

Considering your argument is oriented around Klefbom's passing being so much more important to the team's success with he and McDavid on the ice, why doesn't this show in the data?

Player: GF/60 / GA/60 / total /60) / GF% w/o McDavid
Klefbom: 3.2 / 3.25 / -0.05 G/60 / 34.8%
Nurse: 3.8 / 2.71 / +1.09 G/60 / 43.5%


I can't think of any particular reason why the data could be considered invalid or skewed. Unless you were to argue Nurse is always stepping on the ice after Klefbom makes the pass for McDavid to gain the offensive zone, but at that point you'd have a massive burden of proof. Seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Maybe it's true that Klefbom's passing aids in transitioning the puck but I'd ask two things to follow that up: 1.) is it fair to state that- going off the data- Nurse's in-zone offensive contributions must be greater than Klefbom's and 2.) does that "flow of play" matter much if it isn't generating goal share dominance?

Having looked at the data, even if we make the argument that flow of play does matter, this set's flow numbers even looked rather similar to the rest.

Nurse has consistently shown an ability to be a positive force on the ice relative to his team's results. It's fair to suggest that he may be better suited to a spot lower down the lineup considering the team's results with him in that spot, but I'd respond in kind considering the team's results with Klefbom in such a spot.

Further, this doesn't account for the additional factors I listed. Nurse has a LOT going in his favour- results, age, durability, etc- that we shouldn't hastily disregard in our value calculations when comparing him and Klefbom.

I don't know for sure that he's worth 7mil but I do know that I'd rather take the risk with him at around 7 (probably closer to 6.75, but I'll assume higher) than trade him and rely on a perpetual injury risk whose results in the same role have been noticeably worse- even if he costs ~3mil less.

My ideal is really to continue playing Nurse as we have, get Klefbom's minutes and deployment down to how it was with Persson (offensive push, softer minutes) and use those two to usher in the new era of Dmen.

The past two years, Nurse and Klefbom have played VERY comparable minutes alongside comparable partners and comparable deployment. I'll stand by my statement: either both are or neither are.

Excuse my strong words here but it's absurd to suggest that Bear is close while simultaneously asserting that Nurse isn't. This if my inference of your meaning in this statement is accurate, of course.

- MaximumBone


Can I get the James Tanner version of this novel?
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