The real question is who is better, Spezza or Gauthier?
- TheMussel

Well we will probably see them both on a like regularly now so we will see

Guy puts up a goal per game in the O in his draft year and still gets no respeck!
- AdamFrench

I mean one is currently on a 90 point pace as a 19 year old, and the other looks like one of the Goonies. I can see where the confusion lies.

The sweet embrace of daeth
- AdamFrench

he really is quite cuddly

If 90% of the team is happy you are gone there is a problem.
- Santo_44

Players hated Scotty Bowman.

Players hated Herb Brooks.

Players hated Mike Keenan.

Players hate Torts.

Keefe is still winless in the NHL.

The real question is who is better, Spezza or Gauthier?
- TheMussel

please post their Heart per 60 ratings

Keefe is still winless in the NHL.
- Atomic Wedgie

Everybody is until they get a win

The real question is who is better, Spezza or Gauthier?
- TheMussel

Gauthier, because he's a product of the Marlies' development system, which is better than any development system in the history of sports.

Apparently.

please post their Heart per 60 ratings
- senstroll

I mean one is currently on a 90 point pace as a 19 year old, and the other looks like one of the Goonies. I can see where the confusion lies.
- BINGO!

big deal. so is Dougie Hamilton and he is a locker room problem and you cant win with him

Keefe is still winless in the NHL.
- Atomic Wedgie

Also undefeated

Mike Babcock is an arrogant wienerhead who has regularly treated people like poop throughout his career.

He lucked into a career year from J.S. Giguere and then got handed one of the most potent rosters in the history of the NHL, including arguably the best defenseman of all time in Nick Lidstrom.

He hasn't seen the 2nd round of the playoffs since the last lockout. His vaunted protoges have all accomplished jack poop and are plagued by the same issues he repeatedly shows.

He's monstrously overrated.
- BINGO!

is Babcock arrogant - well that seems to be pretty obvious - but people (in my experience) often mistake what they see as arrogance for what is self-confidence.

there isn't a cup winning coach in recent memory who doesn't have some of this... perhaps not Berube.

Babcock was absolutely the best possible hire and right guy when they hired him. You can complain about the last playoff loss, but actually nothing prior to that was anything but "improving". He made his players better and for the most part they played "like a team" - until December of 2017.

none of this - your opinion or mine - changes anything about what happens next. Dubas owns this now... no excuses or "shadows". The "spectre of Babcock is gone and so is the ability to lay all the blame at Babcock's feet.

If - and hope this doesn't happen - they lose 6 of the next 7-8 games their season is pretty much done - meaning no playoffs.

Will Dubas look at his roster objectively? address needs? or will he climb back into the security of puck possession,zone entries and the warmth of advanced stats? Is it arrogant to assume you can't learn anything from a guy who has coached in the league for 20 years?

Also undefeated
- senstroll

Damn.

You win this one, Sensie.

Watch your back.

is Babcock arrogant - well that seems to be pretty obvious - but people (in my experience) often mistake what they see as arrogance for what is self-confidence.

there isn't a cup winning coach in recent memory who doesn't have some of this... perhaps not Berube.

Babcock was absolutely the best possible hire and right guy when they hired him. You can complain about the last playoff loss, but actually nothing prior to that was anything but "improving". He made his players better and for the most part they played "like a team" - until December of 2017.

none of this - your opinion or mine - changes anything about what happens next. Dubas owns this now... no excuses or "shadows". The "spectre of Babcock is gone and so is the ability to lay all the blame at Babcock's feet.

If - and hope this doesn't happen - they lose 6 of the next 7-8 games their season is pretty much done - meaning no playoffs.

Will Dubas look at his roster objectively? address needs? or will he climb back into the security of puck possession,zone entries and the warmth of advanced stats? Is it arrogant to assume you can't learn anything from a guy who has coached in the league for 20 years?
- BorjeFan4Ever

This is true, but I mean people have been saying this about Babcock since he was coaching in the WHL and it's part of what got him fired in Moose Jaw back in the day.

Players hated Scotty Bowman.

Players hated Herb Brooks.

Players hated Mike Keenan.

Players hate Torts.
- Atomic Wedgie

Do people really hate Torts? Or does the media just hate him? Where is the proof?

And the other coaches were coaches before the 20th century. It’s a different game.

big deal. so is Dougie Hamilton and he is a locker room problem and you cant win with him
- senstroll

Gauthier, because he's a product of the Marlies' development system, which is better than any development system in the history of sports.

Apparently.
- Atomic Wedgie

It’s been very good the past few years and that’s all we are saying. You don’t need to take it that far, settle down.

Damn.

You win this one, Sensie.

Watch your back.
- Atomic Wedgie

Lets regroup and discuss tomorrow.
one of us will still be right.

Don't you hate it when dozens of people come forward and say a guy did a thing, and then that one guy says the opposite, and 50% of people believe him for no good reason?
- TheMussel

are you talking about Babcock or OrangeSphinter?

Anybody want to take a moderate approach to all of this and say that maybe Babcock had a shelf life and it expired, but he wasn't a bad coach, just not working in Toronto? Can we say that while Keefe may not be everybody's first choice, it might be prudent to see what happens after he takes over? Anybody wanna admit that we don't have a stake in MLSE and we'll either have to see how it pans out or stop paying attention, and that we know very little if not nothing in terms of what happens behind closed doors?

Just throwing it out there. It's hockey, and if you're posting in here, chances are your security and livelihood don't depend on it.

Ok then. So subjectively, COULD you be a little biased then?

I dunno, from personal experiences and only going on from perception of Babs from the outside in, I have worked with individuals what his persona seems to be like and have never done well with them. The style and approach leaves much to be desired. Not to sound like a brat. (I grew up in an old school european home.) Im for tough, as long as you balance it with fairness.

I dont like some of the decisions Babs makes and he always came of as kind of arrogant or bullish about it.
- mel_vin

I do think this is the problem, he's a hard nosed, real life, hard working "go and get it" type of guy. 20-somethings these days are more instant gratification, "gimme what's coming to me" types. I'm generalizing, but this is likely the heart of the matter (with all teams and old school coaches probably, not just TOR).

good luck the rest of the way boys...gotta work.

Does Rielly have similar Value to Jones?

Like can I just trade one for the other or do I have to add?

is Babcock arrogant - well that seems to be pretty obvious - but people (in my experience) often mistake what they see as arrogance for what is self-confidence.

there isn't a cup winning coach in recent memory who doesn't have some of this... perhaps not Berube.

Babcock was absolutely the best possible hire and right guy when they hired him. You can complain about the last playoff loss, but actually nothing prior to that was anything but "improving". He made his players better and for the most part they played "like a team" - until December of 2017.

none of this - your opinion or mine - changes anything about what happens next. Dubas owns this now... no excuses or "shadows". The "spectre of Babcock is gone and so is the ability to lay all the blame at Babcock's feet.

If - and hope this doesn't happen - they lose 6 of the next 7-8 games their season is pretty much done - meaning no playoffs.

Will Dubas look at his roster objectively? address needs? or will he climb back into the security of puck possession,zone entries and the warmth of advanced stats? Is it arrogant to assume you can't learn anything from a guy who has coached in the league for 20 years?
- BorjeFan4Ever

I don't think he can really do much to address needs.

This team is completely handcuffed by the cap - and I don't think that's much of a criticism of Dubas. Sure, he overpaid a little on Marner, but not enough to make it the thing that makes the Leafs so tight to the cap.

The Leafs had an exceptional (for the Leafs it was historic) bulge of young players arriving at RFA status at the same time - so it's a good problem to have.

But trading anyone other than Tavares, Marner, Matthews, Nylander or Rielly isn't really going to move the needle that much. And I doubt Dubas makes that dramatic a move (maybe Nylander).

Like it or lump it, this is our team for the next three years. So they'd better find a way to win with the group they have.

This is true, but I mean people have been saying this about Babcock since he was coaching in the WHL and it's part of what got him fired in Moose Jaw back in the day.
- BINGO!

exactly, he was and is as advertised. It is part of what made him successful... and part of why he wears out his welcome eventually.

"Mike Babcock is arrogant"

"Kyle Dubas is shyte at contract negotiations"

which one matters more going forward?

Anybody want to take a moderate approach to all of this and say that maybe Babcock had a shelf life and it expired, but he wasn't a bad coach, just not working in Toronto? Can we say that while Keefe may not be everybody's first choice, it might be prudent to see what happens after he takes over? Anybody wanna admit that we don't have a stake in MLSE and we'll either have to see how it pans out or stop paying attention, and that we know very little if not nothing in terms of what happens behind closed doors?

Just throwing it out there. It's hockey, and if you're posting in here, chances are your security and livelihood don't depend on it.
- TheMussel

i only operate in hyperbole so no