None of them are going to fix the scoring issues or lack of dzone coverage. The big boys on this club need to play up to their respective salaries and Murphy needs to stay healthy (never though I'd say that but he's been real solid on the backend).
- bhawks2241

Yes, none of Highmore, Sikura, or Wedin are going to be big scorers but can provide timely secondary scoring which is a relative term when primary scoring isn't stellar so far this season.

Sikura would actually be a good option to consider for PP2. He can play the same or similar role that Kane does on PP1. At least that's how Sikura is deployed on Rockford's PP1.

As for defense, all 3 of them would actually be good soldiers in that department. They all play 200 foot games and could also take some PK minutes if needed.

Alas, there's no room for any of them so I know a lot of this is moot until spots open up.

Tonight:s game is an opportunity to comment on whether you feel the Canucks or the Blackhawks are farther ahead in the youth rebuild. Both teams have sprinkled in some veterans although the Canucks at least this season poured in more than a sprinkling of veterans

Both GM"s are committed to youth on a rebuild on the fly. The addition of veterans merely makes each team supposedly more competitive. A few more victories may keep fans in the stands as well.

I have not read what the Canadian media says about the Vancouver build. I have not checked out their youth in the pipeline but I can immediately recall that they have a highly rated #1 drafted goaltender yet to make a permanent imprint in the NHL despite solid play in the AHL. That would be due to the maturation of a long in the tooth prospect in goal,; namely Markstrom.

Chicago might have a similar story in net should Lehner re-sign and cC leaves. The Blackhawks have two descent rated goaltenders in the AHL and perhaps a stud in Gravel.

Yes, none of Highmore, Sikura, or Wedin are going to be big scorers but can provide timely secondary scoring which is a relative term when primary scoring isn't stellar so far this season.

Sikura would actually be a good option to consider for PP2. He can play the same or similar role that Kane does on PP1. At least that's how Sikura is deployed on Rockford's PP1.

As for defense, all 3 of them would actually be good soldiers in that department. They all play 200 foot games and could also take some PK minutes if needed.

Alas, there's no room for any of them so I know a lot of this is moot until spots open up.
- AEL_Fox

Think we are on the same page. I could have better clarified what I meant. None of those players bring anything to the big club that isn't already there. Are any of them better options than Carpenter or Caggiula? Maybe marginally offensively but Caggiula and Carpenter have played very well in their respective roles. Not sure any of those 3 bring the PK ability that Carpenter does but I could be wrong.

If LBR is lurking somewhere I did see some advance stats concerning Carpenter playing this Dcat and Strome. He appeared to really drag that line down.

You could potentially slide Kampfy down and put Sikura on the third line and sit one of Carpenter or Cagguila. Not sure if that really makes a big difference.

I really didn't see that much of Highmore during the preseason. Skates fast and tries hard. Not sure how much hockey talent is there to make him anything more than a 4th line guy.

Tonight:s game is an opportunity to comment on whether you feel the Canucks or the Blackhawks are farther ahead in the youth rebuild. Both teams have sprinkled in some veterans although the Canucks at least this season poured in more than a sprinkling of veterans

Both GM"s are committed to youth on a rebuild on the fly. The addition of veterans merely makes each team supposedly more competitive. A few more victories may keep fans in the stands as well.

I have not read what the Canadian media says about the Vancouver build. I have not checked out their youth in the pipeline but I can immediately recall that they have a highly rated #1 drafted goaltender yet to make a permanent imprint in the NHL despite solid play in the AHL. That would be due to the maturation of a long in the tooth prospect in goal,; namely Markstrom.

Chicago might have a similar story in net should Lehner re-sign and cC leaves. The Blackhawks have two descent rated goaltenders in the AHL and perhaps a stud in Gravel.
- jhawk59

We play them on the 7th, after San Jose. Also, judging who is further along in a "rebuild" after one game ... not the best idea, but it will happen. Not saying you will do it.

Yes, none of Highmore, Sikura, or Wedin are going to be big scorers but can provide timely secondary scoring which is a relative term when primary scoring isn't stellar so far this season.

Sikura would actually be a good option to consider for PP2. He can play the same or similar role that Kane does on PP1. At least that's how Sikura is deployed on Rockford's PP1.

As for defense, all 3 of them would actually be good soldiers in that department. They all play 200 foot games and could also take some PK minutes if needed.

Alas, there's no room for any of them so I know a lot of this is moot until spots open up.
- AEL_Fox

With Toews and the 4 rookie on PP#2, isn't Nylander already playing that role? Kubalik is the shooter, Toews is the behind the net, Dach is the bumper, Bovquist is the point guy. Maybe in the future Dach is the distirbutor if we can find another forward that could effectively be the net front presence/bumper.

Think we are on the same page. I could have better clarified what I meant. None of those players bring anything to the big club that isn't already there. Are any of them better options than Carpenter or Caggiula? Maybe marginally offensively but Caggiula and Carpenter have played very well in their respective roles. Not sure any of those 3 bring the PK ability that Carpenter does but I could be wrong.

If LBR is lurking somewhere I did see some advance stats concerning Carpenter playing this Dcat and Strome. He appeared to really drag that line down.

You could potentially slide Kampfy down and put Sikura on the third line and sit one of Carpenter or Cagguila. Not sure if that really makes a big difference.

I really didn't see that much of Highmore during the preseason. Skates fast and tries hard. Not sure how much hockey talent is there to make him anything more than a 4th line guy.
- bhawks2241

Generally what you are saying is all true. You're right that Highmore, Sikura, or Wedin don't bring anything new or better than what Caggiula, Carpenter, and Kampf bring presently. If any of those current Hawks got injured, though, any of those Hogs could step in and do at least a decent job to fill in.

As far as water level for each of them, I think that's right that Highmore is a 4th liner. Sikura could play middle 6 while Wedin could play bottom 6.

Colliton does like his Swedes so I could see him playing Wedin in the top 6, and with his line blender set at 15 on a 10-setting machine, that could very well happen if ever recalled.

Think we are on the same page. I could have better clarified what I meant. None of those players bring anything to the big club that isn't already there. Are any of them better options than Carpenter or Caggiula? Maybe marginally offensively but Caggiula and Carpenter have played very well in their respective roles. Not sure any of those 3 bring the PK ability that Carpenter does but I could be wrong.

If LBR is lurking somewhere I did see some advance stats concerning Carpenter playing this Dcat and Strome. He appeared to really drag that line down.

You could potentially slide Kampfy down and put Sikura on the third line and sit one of Carpenter or Cagguila. Not sure if that really makes a big difference.

I really didn't see that much of Highmore during the preseason. Skates fast and tries hard. Not sure how much hockey talent is there to make him anything more than a 4th line guy.
- bhawks2241

Carptenter playing with Dcat and Strome is only because you needed someone that has some defensive acumen with those 2, when you play Kane there, you are just hoping the offense outweighs the lack of defense those 3 provide.

With Toews and the 4 rookie on PP#2, isn't Nylander already playing that role? Kubalik is the shooter, Toews is the behind the net, Dach is the bumper, Bovquist is the point guy. Maybe in the future Dach is the distirbutor if we can find another forward that could effectively be the net front presence/bumper.
- LAHawk

You are correct. If recalled at any point, I don't see Colliton giving Sikura PP time unless any of the players you already mentioned are not in the lineup.

IIRC, Saad isn't even on the PP anymore so I can't see Sikura leapfrogging Saad either.

We play them on the 7th, after San Jose. Also, judging who is further along in a "rebuild" after one game ... not the best idea, but it will happen. Not saying you will do it.
- I Am The Breadman

What about after a 14 game sample size?


https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard

Can Smith be sent to Rockford? If so, is there enough cap savings to allow someone like Sikura/Highmore to fill his spot? Maybe that's where this is headed. Who knows.
- phantasmo

Yes - I think the number is $950K that can be buried so the Hawks would still be on the hook for most of Smith's cap hit but that $950K would be enough to cover the cap hits of Sikura ($750K), or Highmore ($776K), or Wedin ($925K).

Of they could send Gilbert back to Rockford which would clear $925K.

AEL, has Delia been as bad as his stats indicate so far? I personally do not think he is a NHL quality goaltender, he has the athleticism, but needs a lot of work technically. Laankanins stats appear much better.

What about after a 14 game sample size?


https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard
- EnzoD

I found something more annoying than the constant posts about grown men's heights & weights ... the constant posts of the standings. The world of a fair weather fan.

What about after a 14 game sample size?


https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard
- EnzoD

I'm not dogging on you Enzo, but IMO, it's a pretty pointless discussion, no?
1) There is no consensus definition of "rebuild".
2) How long has Vancouver been crap while the Hawks were still competitive (hence getting better draft slots)?
3) How many different ways are there to build a winning team?
4) How do you define success/further in their rebuild?
5) Is the goal to be like NSH, or TB and be at the top of the division every year, but haven't won it yet, or would it be better to just win one cup then be knocked back down to where we have been the past two years?
6) A few years back (15-16), MTL won 10 straight to start the year and missed the playoffs.
7) Last year...STL.

So yeah, in my mind, pointless.

What about after a 14 game sample size?


https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard
- EnzoD

Not sure what it tells us, other tha Vancouver is a better team right now. Didn't they start their rebuild a few years before Chicago?

I'm not dogging on you Enzo, but IMO, it's a pretty pointless discussion, no?
1) There is no consensus definition of "rebuild".
2) How long has Vancouver been crap while the Hawks were still competitive (hence getting better draft slots)?
3) How many different ways are there to build a winning team?
4) How do you define success/further in their rebuild?
5) Is the goal to be like NSH, or TB and be at the top of the division every year, but haven't won it yet, or would it be better to just win one cup then be knocked back down to where we have been the past two years?
6) A few years back (15-16), MTL won 10 straight to start the year and missed the playoffs.
7) Last year...STL.

So yeah, in my mind, pointless.
- Chunk

Not if the purpose is to find anything to dog the Hawks GM and coach.

Not sure what it tells us, other tha Vancouver is a better team right now. Didn't they start their rebuild a few years before Chicago?
- mohel

Sorry.
While many are dogging Enzo for beating the horse, he's got a valid point.

Raise your hand if you:
1. thought the roster looked improved over last year?
2. expected a much better start given the opening homestand? (Europe not incl)
3. repeated over, give Colliton a full camp and preseason to employ his scheme?
4. expected better performance out of the "Core?"
5. expected better starts from Debrincat and Strome?
6. thought Seabrook would be serviceable with a real NHL d-man as partner?
7. expected goaltending to be a strength this year?
8. expected goal scoring to be no issue?

In my case, I raised my hand for #'s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8
And thought those of you foolish for raising your hand for #'s 3 and 6.
Never did and still don't think Colliton is a real NHL-quality coach.
And have thought Seabrook has been washed up now for a while. In the ever-increasing speed of NHL players, guile, experience and willingness only get you so far. And then you get turnstiled.

Sorry.
While many are dogging Enzo for beating the horse, he's got a valid point.

Raise your hand if you:
1. thought the roster looked improved over last year?
2. expected a much better start given the opening homestand? (Europe not incl)
3. repeated over, give Colliton a full camp and preseason to employ his scheme?
4. expected better performance out of the "Core?"
5. expected better starts from Debrincat and Strome?
6. thought Seabrook would be serviceable with a real NHL d-man as partner?
7. expected goaltending to be a strength this year?
8. expected goal scoring to be no issue?

In my case, I raised my hand for #'s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8
And thought those of you foolish for raising your hand for #'s 3 and 6.
Never did and still don't think Colliton is a real NHL-quality coach.
And have thought Seabrook has been washed up now for a while. In the ever-increasing speed of NHL players, guile, experience and willingness only get you so far. And then you get turnstiled.
- savvyone-1

Very telling and truthful post.
Q: I suppose that Boqvist is your new hope - he replaces your manly hockey love for the departed Leddy

An going rebuild in Chicago and Vancouver could be matched in duration by the discussion and choices below:

Horvat or DeBrincat
Hughes (Vancouver) or Boqvist

Is your answer different if I substitute the yet to appear in NHL Mitchell instead of Boqvist

I wonder whom Wiz would choose. And everyone on the board would choose - it's debatable eh?

Sorry.
While many are dogging Enzo for beating the horse, he's got a valid point.

Raise your hand if you:
1. thought the roster looked improved over last year?
2. expected a much better start given the opening homestand? (Europe not incl)
3. repeated over, give Colliton a full camp and preseason to employ his scheme?
4. expected better performance out of the "Core?"
5. expected better starts from Debrincat and Strome?
6. thought Seabrook would be serviceable with a real NHL d-man as partner?
7. expected goaltending to be a strength this year?
8. expected goal scoring to be no issue?

In my case, I raised my hand for #'s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8
And thought those of you foolish for raising your hand for #'s 3 and 6.
Never did and still don't think Colliton is a real NHL-quality coach.
And have thought Seabrook has been washed up now for a while. In the ever-increasing speed of NHL players, guile, experience and willingness only get you so far. And then you get turnstiled.
- savvyone-1

1. I did - and it is.
2. I did - about 2 games better (say, 6-4-3=15 instead of 4-6-3=11). That's a big 4 points with so many home games, and a tough schedule coming up thru US Thanksgiving.
3. I did - and it may prove to be correct (although I'm not as confident as I was)
4. I expected better than we've seen from Kane and Toews - and we still should get it
5. I expected better than we've seen - and I expect we will still get it
6. I did - and he still may be (although I'm not as confident as I was)
7. I did - and it is.
8. I always think goal scoring is going to be an issue - it's tough to score consistently in this league - but I still expect them to come around, even if not to the level of last season.

What do I win?

Sorry.
While many are dogging Enzo for beating the horse, he's got a valid point.

Raise your hand if you:
1. thought the roster looked improved over last year?
2. expected a much better start given the opening homestand? (Europe not incl)
3. repeated over, give Colliton a full camp and preseason to employ his scheme?
4. expected better performance out of the "Core?"
5. expected better starts from Debrincat and Strome?
6. thought Seabrook would be serviceable with a real NHL d-man as partner?
7. expected goaltending to be a strength this year?
8. expected goal scoring to be no issue?

In my case, I raised my hand for #'s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8
And thought those of you foolish for raising your hand for #'s 3 and 6.
Never did and still don't think Colliton is a real NHL-quality coach.
And have thought Seabrook has been washed up now for a while. In the ever-increasing speed of NHL players, guile, experience and willingness only get you so far. And then you get turnstiled.
- savvyone-1

I may have missed a post, but I don't think anyone is dogging on Enzo (I actually specifically said that I wasn't in my response to his post. The topic being discussed there was "who was further along in the rebuild, CHI or VAN?". I pointed out that I believe that exercise is pointless, and others simply stated that the current standings only indicate that VAN is higher in the standings right now.

Can you make the argument that VAN is playing better right now? Yes. Can you say that they are necessarily the better team and will end up with a better record this year? No.

I was cautiously optimistic with the moves that the Hawks made over the summer. I also was expecting them to have issues simply due to the volume of new faces on the team. I am also not sold on Colliton, but I am not going to make any major judgements on him until the end of the year.

Every single one of the points you make above (of which I was in agreement on many) are assumptions. As they say, the games aren't played on paper. They need to see all those improvements/assumptions come to fruition. There are a number of reasons why they are not performing as we all hoped.

I found something more annoying than the constant posts about grown men's heights & weights ... the constant posts of the standings. The world of a fair weather fan.
- I Am The Breadman

Fair Weather fan lmao I've been playing hockey since before you were born. I was at the UC as an infant before you were born, and I have the Tomahawks C tattooed on my shoulder. I'm sure you hate seeing Height and Weight posts since you come across as a small boy, and you've never played the game. Hockey is a contact sport where physical and mental strength/tenacity are just as crucial as puck skill.


Blind kool-aid drinking and online shenanigans is one type of fandom that you are more than welcome to do. It's clear that's why you are here. I come to here to talk hockey with the many people here who have a wealth of hockey experience and knowledge.

Player, coach, and Management assessments for both positive and negative performance based on my nearly 30 years of Playing, Officiating (I was an IHOA referee from age 12-22), and Coaching experience is "fair weather" fan only in the eyes of a fool.


Only Losers are content with Losing, mediocrity, and "moral victories". Hawks have done a lot of losing the last 3 years, and you are entitled to be fine with losing. "Fair weather fan" is a childish low blow. Grow up kid.


EDIT: I also named my Dog after Coach Q

Sorry.
While many are dogging Enzo for beating the horse, he's got a valid point.

Raise your hand if you:
1. thought the roster looked improved over last year?
2. expected a much better start given the opening homestand? (Europe not incl)
3. repeated over, give Colliton a full camp and preseason to employ his scheme?
4. expected better performance out of the "Core?"
5. expected better starts from Debrincat and Strome?
6. thought Seabrook would be serviceable with a real NHL d-man as partner?
7. expected goaltending to be a strength this year?
8. expected goal scoring to be no issue?

In my case, I raised my hand for #'s 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8
And thought those of you foolish for raising your hand for #'s 3 and 6.
Never did and still don't think Colliton is a real NHL-quality coach.
And have thought Seabrook has been washed up now for a while. In the ever-increasing speed of NHL players, guile, experience and willingness only get you so far. And then you get turnstiled.
- savvyone-1

Hi, Savvy. Interesting post, but what does it have to do with whether Vancouver is ahead of the Hawks in a rebuild? It was posited that they are because.....standings. The response, but several posters was that such a comparison is nonsensical because, among other things, Vancouver has been at it longer.

I'm not dogging on you Enzo, but IMO, it's a pretty pointless discussion, no?
1) There is no consensus definition of "rebuild".
2) How long has Vancouver been crap while the Hawks were still competitive (hence getting better draft slots)?
3) How many different ways are there to build a winning team?
4) How do you define success/further in their rebuild?
5) Is the goal to be like NSH, or TB and be at the top of the division every year, but haven't won it yet, or would it be better to just win one cup then be knocked back down to where we have been the past two years?
6) A few years back (15-16), MTL won 10 straight to start the year and missed the playoffs.
7) Last year...STL.

So yeah, in my mind, pointless.
- Chunk

14 games is a snapshot. Are they road or home? Against mainly good teams or weak teams? Are there significant injuries on either team? Playing their #1 or #2 goalie. Are they trending up or down?

Fair Weather fan lmao I've been playing hockey since before you were born. I was at the UC as an infant before you were born, and I have the Tomahawks C tattooed on my shoulder. I'm sure you hate seeing Height and Weight posts since you come across as a small boy, and you've never played the game. Hockey is a contact sport where physical and mental strength/tenacity are just as crucial as puck skill.


Blind kool-aid drinking and online shenanigans is one type of fandom that you are more than welcome to do. It's clear that's why you are here. I come to here to talk hockey with the many people here who have a wealth of hockey experience and knowledge.

Player, coach, and Management assessments for both positive and negative performance based on my nearly 30 years of Playing, Officiating (I was an IHOA referee from age 12-22), and Coaching experience is "fair weather" fan only in the eyes of a fool.


Only Losers are content with Losing, mediocrity, and "moral victories". Hawks have done a lot of losing the last 3 years, and you are entitled to be fine with losing. "Fair weather fan" is a childish low blow. Grow up kid.


EDIT: I also named my Dog after Coach Q
- EnzoD

Such name calling. Fair weather fan. Loser. Blind Kool-Aid drinking. I think you should report yourself.

Anyway, all the tats and naming of the dog after a coach didn't prevent you from using current standings to compare two teams at very different points in the rebuild process. Maybe another tattoo would help. I suggest Bobby Hull, given your bullying internet style.

I don't think you can compare the 2 teams as far as rebuilding because both teams are at different stages. The Sedins and their cap hits retired last year. If the Hawks lost Toew's and Kane's cap hits, then we could compare rebuilds.